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In regards to the Karma changes on the PBE (From the player with the 3rd most Karma games NA)

tonytwobits·7/15/2016, 1:23:31 AM·29 votes·3,705 views

We all knew that Karma nerfs where coming. With such high Pick/Ban in competitive play it was inevitable. This is my opinion on the changes as a Top lane Karma main with over 650 games on her this season.

Here are the changes for those who have not seen: Inspire (E) Shield value lowered to 70/100/130/160/190 from 80/110/140/170/200 Can no longer shield minions. Mantra Bonus - Defiance (R+E) now has same movement speed as E shield (40/45/50/55/60%) instead of 60%.

For the most part I am ok with these changes. For Karma, Ult E is very strong and is almost universally good in any team comp. Huge shield to protect against burst. AoE speed for a hard engage comp. AoE Speed for a poke and kite comp. It is a very powerful ability and toning it down a bit is probably warranted.

The problem I have with the change is removing the ability to shield minions. Riot SmashGizmo said on Twitter "In general we don't like these sort of direct denial plays in LoL and they encourage some bad uses of shielding abilities." I can understand the idea behind it, however I think that over all it will remove depth from the champion if this change goes through.

There are 3 ways shielding minions can be useful to a Karma player.

  1. As mentioned** denial of last hits.** This is a pretty cheesy tactic when you shield a minion, normally cannon minion, right before the enemy is going to last hit it, keeping it alive so it will hopefully die to another minion. There is a cost to doing this in cool-downs and mana clearly. It gives the opponent 10-8 seconds to try to land some poke that you will not be able to block. It is a tactic that I don't use all that often because I value the shield for trades and top lane Karma likes to trade a lot. But there are times that you have the extra mana and know that you are safe so you can cheese out a cs from your opponent. To me I don't see it as much different from Braum shielding a minion to deny a last hit or Teemo blinding a champ to deny last hits or Yasio using a windwall to block a whole AoE clear messing up last hits under tower.

  2. The second two are the tactics that I use a lot more often and would be more sad to lose. Number 2 is taking turrets. This is very useful for a top karma player as you tend to do a bit of split pushing but it is nice for support and mid Karma as well. When you get a cannon minion on a turret giving it an Ult-E gives you that extra couple shots to get some more autos on the turret. Very useful tool that I would be sad to see go.

  3. Using minions to extend your Ult-E range. A very useful trick to get a shield on an ally that is in trouble but is too far away. Your E Range is 800 units, but if you Ult-E a minion that is within 600 units of an ally the ally will get the shield, extending your E range by 600 units. This has saved my allies many times and if removed would take away some of the depth and interaction from Karma.

Bottom line I would be sad if the minion casting changes go through. Removing interesting options from a champion is not the best way to nerf a champion. I feel that Riot is removing a layer of complexity from Karma. Taking away one of her ways she can interact with the game, the map, and the other players. E would just be just a boring shield bomb with no extra interesting interactions.

So Riot if you are reading this, that is my thoughts.

63 Comments

TNHA Baritone7/15/2016, 2:17:59 AM23 votes

Meanwhile Janna shielding turrets and Alistar healing minions. :)

Silly Neeko7/15/2016, 1:37:12 AM10 votes

Id have to say I agree with you about the shielding minions, because Alistar can heal a wave of minions.... why cant karma shield a minion? Perhaps give it half value for minions or something...... but not remove it completely.

IxtaliKing7/15/2016, 11:04:53 AM7 votes

Extending RE range with minions, I did that several times in my last game as Karma, a lot of people don't understand how important those tricks are to Karma. Aside from her Q skill shot, her minion tricks are the only skill expression she has left. Karma has been stripped of everything.

Sugar Momma7/15/2016, 12:20:31 PM6 votes

I feel the same way about the shielding minions...It's kinda what makes Karma unique...She's generic enough already.

Voluug137/15/2016, 3:04:12 AM3 votes

Honestly the real fix to this ''denial play'' problem Riot is complaining about is extremely simple:

Keep the mechanic, but dont let the minion get any benefit. You can still make plays to extend your range for a clutch RE and save someone/get an assist.

Yeah, Karma loses a bit of tower taking potential on the minions not getting actual shielding, but at least keeps the skill check of the mechanic.

hotfire7/15/2016, 2:59:41 AM3 votes

Being able to shield minions to speed to towers is really fun, dont see the reason for removing this either. If somebody shields a minion by mistake that's their fault.

Ionian StarChild7/15/2016, 7:11:04 PM3 votes

I've been voicing out my concern about this ever since I saw the nerfs on PBE. I get that the option was available to other champions (mostly support champs) but were removed, but the way Karma's shield functions really makes the interaction with minions unique to her. Like you stated, she can speed them up for faster turret pushes, or even giving them that extra hit to extend the push. The extending of her mantra-ed shield range is something I really like about her and what she currently does so I'm with everyone else that removing that feature will greatly reduce her outplay potential. I hope they're keeping an eye on their tentative changes to her. I feel like everything they put on PBE for her in the past received no changes. They always were made final without them looking at the feedback on the boards.

Serpents Embrace7/16/2016, 6:41:31 AM2 votes

What would be your thoughts on retaining the ability to target minions with the Mantra'd E but losing the ability to actually shield them? As in, they would get no shield value themselves - just recenter the AoE. And I suppose regular E would no longer be capable of targeting them as it would do nothing.

I only ask because that would remove the first two use cases on your list. The cheese minion denial that Riot definitely doesn't like and the minor use case of increasing push time at a turret (which seems benign but I can't think of how you'd change it to differentiate between Case 1 and Case 2). You'd keep the Mantra E extension as far as Champions are concerned.

LycopolisKing7/15/2016, 1:16:46 PM2 votes

It's a cruel nerf. It's a great tower pushing ability, and I agree that it doesn't need to be slammed when Alistar, of all people, can still heal a wave of minions.

inplane7/15/2016, 2:38:41 PM2 votes

It really pains me that they're getting rid of Karma's unique ability to shield minions. I played the hell out of Karma back in Season 4 and seeing her finally become somewhat popular is nice. It's sad that Riot's balancing priorities are so one-sided.

Zoe Biden7/15/2016, 3:59:43 AM2 votes

Even though I hate when the skillcap of a champ is lowered for balance reasons (nidalee is a good example), I would honestly prefer this over just gutting her numbers. This way her core strenths are still strong, but a few of the extra things you could do are no longer avalible. Even if karma can be oppressive to play against I never felt like she was unfair. I do however think that a small nerf is justified. I guess it just good she insn't getting olafed and nerfed into oblivion just so she isn't 90% pick ban in pro play.

-Thoughts from someone who has only played karma once in a season 4 aram

Ionian StarChild7/15/2016, 9:47:09 PM2 votes

Unfortunately it seems like Riot, or one in particular, doesn't feel the same as us. From the reddit post concerning this topic, here's what PhreakRiot had to say about the matter;

"Honestly the only great gameplay there is the Ult-E interaction. An exceptionally rare one, but one that you could technically use.

Honestly don't much care for denying cs / sieging better. Doesn't need to be a strength of the champion."

-PhreakRiot

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4sx1sh/in_regards_to_the_karma_changes_on_the_pbe_from/

Sèx Craved Eve7/15/2016, 7:40:31 PM1 votes

I went against a top karma yesterday, boy was it fun to see her just push wave and deny me cannons with her shield all lane long. No, it needs to be removed.