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A spellshield on Nocturne is nice, but what if...

4nth0l0gy·3/15/2015, 5:08:38 PM·170 votes·7,100 views

Instead, he went invisible for a few seconds?

And, say, his E tether didn't cause him to destealth?

Kinda borrowed from this thread. just feels a little wonky to me. For a nightmare, his R is the only really terror-inducing part of his kit.

I'm no expert, but as scary as a big shady figure slowly drifting toward you can be, I think it'd be way more frightening to suddenly have an impending fear icon appear over your head out of nowhere ("I FORGOT TO WARD!" You scream). I mean sure, you can fire a blind skillshot in hopes of hitting him, but chances are you're going to panic and run...even if he was actually BEHIND YOU THE WHOLE TIME, MUAHAHAHA.

To me, that's TOTALLY what is all about. Screw spell shields, they're dinky little one-and-dones. I'd rather have a cool engage/escape tool, with some true vision counterplay that makes you feel like you're hunting down Freddy Krueger with a vial of holy water.

's not a burst champion, unlike or ; he's supposed to feel like he's impending, creeping along in the corners of your mind. A brief stint of invisibility accomplishes that with style, without making him overpowered. If he really wants to go for the kill, he still has to destealth to use his Q, but his approach would be much more psychological than that of his currently stronger jungle counterparts.

I think invisibility could be a great way to enhance 's theme, make his kit feel more cohesive, and still allow for fair counterplay.

~

Edit**: I don't suppose, since this thread has gotten a bit of attention, a Rioter on the design or balance team might want to chime in on their thoughts on ? I'd be curious to hear if there are any plans to change him up in the near future.

116 Comments

Ultîma3/15/2015, 7:05:05 PM40 votes

I definitely feel as though Nocturne is a bit of a relic in terms of champion design, art wise he looks amazing but I certainly wish he'd deliver more on the idea of being a nightmarish shade. I actually feel that something along the line of Kha'zix' flicker-stealth would really make Nocturne's approach terrifying.

I had also seen a thread somewhere saying that vision control is Nocturne's biggest strength (Paranoia), and having his other abilities represent that would help his kit feel a little more cohesive. The E channel could gradually reduce the target's vision until they are feared, at which point they would see nothing beyond their immediate surroundings like Graves' smokescreen.

Another idea that I saw (that didn't get nearly as much attention) was that Nocturne would stealth on his dusk-trail. I thought this would be interesting in terms of making plays/counterplay because you have a very defined area in which Nocturne can be invisible where he can bait skillshots or pose a threat. Depending on how skillful he is, or if he manages to hit multiple enemies in a teamfight, Nocturne then becomes this very scary assassin that can cover a lot of ground and hit the priority targets where it hurts.

Overall I feel that making Nocturne feel less like a generalist, and more of a wraith would turn him into an amazing character.

Troy2426213/15/2015, 6:25:48 PM22 votes

The reason he has a spellshield is because he is supposed to be a pick assassin. Lone target? Ult them, then pop W/E. They can try to CC you, but you'll negate it, and then the E fear procs. Then, from Q's passive, you can stick to them.

I don't think it's wonky. He's supposed to be the ultimate chaser, the "Nightmare you can't shake," the boogyman coming to get you and you can't do shit about it.

Matthias91193/15/2015, 6:09:12 PM11 votes

Probably too strong unless it was conditional (like he only gets the stealth if he actually counters a spell with his shield). Or maybe he gets a couple seconds of stealth when he arrives from his ult.

Azteryz3/15/2015, 8:40:23 PM6 votes

sooo just curious would people mind if they completely changed his skills with the exception of his ult this would give them a chance to really cement nocturne as a champion because in my opinion none of his skills really pop out to me except his ult when i first think of nocturne

SouL1ess3/16/2015, 2:14:42 AM5 votes

Yeah, Shaco used to have that - cast Box without breaking stealth.

Oh, guess where that went.

RetroRage963/15/2015, 5:20:54 PM4 votes

Kennen Yes yes yes!

The Red Warden3/15/2015, 6:02:27 PM4 votes

So it should be his "peek-a-boo" spell?

Scrimshäw3/15/2015, 6:10:35 PM4 votes

rip my thread from the forums when i suggested he stealthed during his e, since he's supposed to be a friggen nightmare.

what if he stealthed to the person he feared? then only the allies would be able to stop nocturne.

AquariusGine3/15/2015, 7:06:06 PM4 votes

Nocturne has such a cool personality.. but his kit is so BORING , except his R

SpecterVonBaren3/15/2015, 6:17:53 PM3 votes

If it was like Wukong's stealth in terms of duration then I don't see how it would be too bad.

YOU BEEN WARNED3/15/2015, 10:59:26 PM3 votes

Okay, but for counterplay purposes the stealth should be short ( 3~4s ) and leveling the skill should increase it's passive

"When Nocturne's invisiblity fades at a brush, the duration is increased by 2/3/4/5/6"

"When Nocturne's invisibility fades for the first time, he gains 20%/25%/30%/35%/40% attack speed. On second invis, Nocturne instead gains movespeed."

This helps Nocturne fit with his nightmare theme and assists him with ganks and lategame utility, because spellshields are some of the strongest defensive moves in the game.

évy3/16/2015, 5:52:30 AM3 votes

or what if riot took this idea and made it cooler since noctourne is supossed to be about shadows and darkness they could add some mechanic that made him undetected if he walked near terrain (the shadows of walls) idk just a thought

BlackSunNocturne3/16/2015, 2:06:36 PM2 votes

Yes Yes Yes Yes

RIOT HIRE THIS MAN!

Shosuko3/16/2015, 3:33:12 AM2 votes

Ok a bit of a more realistic reply - I agree that Nocturne could really use a re-work. I've always felt this way, especially when he was released.

He is a champ who had a gap closer, hard cc, spell shield, ad steroid, as steroid, aoe damage, passive healing, poke, MASSIVE gap closer engage, total map vision debuff, and sustained damage...

The math behind it was crazy to. What do you get when you give a champ BOTH an AD and AS steroid? Freekin hyper carry, not assassin. YI and Noct both had ad and as steroids, but noct got a spell shield, gap closer, and hard cc. Imagine if Yi's alpha strike included a stun, even for 0.5 seconds lol.

That was just too much. He needed a rework. He still needs one.

Should they add stealth? tbh I really like the idea of him being stealthed on his dusk trail, but not stealthed in general. In this way his stealth would be more akin to akali than wu kong or twitch. Imagine if he was simply always stealthed along his dusk trail... It adds in a telegraph so he wouldn't need fade time, but gives him the mind game if you not knowing where on the trail he is. Also as mentioned if he were to hit 2+ people this would really increase his mind game potential without drastically changing his power levels. I think this could be a great idea. He would blip in and out when he used abilities or auto attacked, and the real fear is that people wouldn't always know if he was actually on their trail or not! You're running away from him in the jungle and he decides to disengage, but your allies see the trail on you and need to decide quickly if he's still there or not! The time the trail follows a champ and the rate it disappears would be reduced too, tune it similar to akali's shroud.

He could join the ranks of Vi and Akali as an endless chaser champ by improving the utility of his trail, maybe give him charges and nuke it's projectile damage to null. Pure utility but he could shoot out maybe 2 or even 3 trails in succession (like vel kox). Of course he would still keep his AD boost while on the trail, but in this way he has chase continually renewed by skill shots allowing some counter play. You could put the actual cd of the skill high too so a few dodges or early uses would render nocturne much less able to chase giving game play to both sides.

Here's the thing - now we thin out the tankyness as a trade off. Make it so that if he's caught he is dead.

I see noct as best played from the jungle, so we could leave in some amount of sustain, but design it to be more of a refill between combat, NO burst sustain for in combat. I'm thinking give him an ability that is life steal always, but activated to trade life steal for attack speed. Lose your sustain for increased damage. If the cd of the ability is high, then the as bonus could be high. Basically I would want to allow him to keep his sustain as long as it's TRADED for damage, not in addition to.

Pæan3/16/2015, 3:50:33 AM2 votes

I was excited to read "but what if.......... he shot fricken laser beams from his head"?!

But i guess this is cool too.

BakugoBestBoy3/16/2015, 12:30:30 PM2 votes

Invisibility is a BIG request from the balance team. It causes a lot of problems and they just can't really balance the champ anymore after they have invisibility as a "key" part of their kit. Evelynn has just been ravaged since her release to the point now where she just sits silently in Champ select never being picked along with Twitch . Khazix has been nerfed so much in so many cycles that he's painful to play with any build path, and I'm pretty sure some rioter said at one point that if Shaco ever saw competitive play his head would be on the executioner's block asap. Basically if you want your champ to be viable for more than a patch don't ask for invisibility. Also Nocturne is fine, he can be played cheesey bursty early mid or he even qualifies as one of the few bruisers who function in the late game.

revliledpembroke3/16/2015, 1:08:52 PM2 votes

I'm sure Karthus mains everywhere love this idea

Zendrô3/16/2015, 12:46:44 AM1 votes

can we replace Sivir's spellshield too then?

HandheldBrandon3/15/2015, 7:26:52 PM1 votes

I would rather not tbh.

Do you really want a stealth that doesn't break when the enemy attempts to CC you?

Do you remember Old Eve where she was permastealthed and then if she came of stealth she would stun someone.

I do.

I NEVER WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT AGAIN!