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Oracle's Alteration Should Not Activate Boxes.

Gank Top Instead·12/22/2018, 7:27:25 AM·140 votes·22,038 views

Hello, Pink Ward here, long time AP Shaco main living in mid to high diamond for the past couple of seasons. I come here today to talk about AP Shaco and the difficulties the playstyle has faced due to AD Shaco being too strong. AD Shaco is by far the best way to play Shaco. Whether it be Jungle, Full AD Assassin, Duskblade, Yomuus, one shots or Duskblade Trinity Bruiser, it is definitely the best way to play Shaco. This playstyle has very little counterplay, as Shaco's stealth is one of the more infuriating things about playing against the champion. Yet, the champion doesn't have much damage built into his kit. AD Shaco gets most of his damage through the items he snowballs into. And in the longterm of games, Shaco's W is fairly weak and maxed last. It's fairly worthless to AD Shaco players outside of jungle camps or an after thought. This is where my playstyle I've created comes into play.

As an AP Shaco main, I have always tried my best to think ahead and using my game knowledge I've obtained over years of playing, I'm able to predict what my opponents will do. Setting up boxes to try and get the best outcome out of situations. Yet, Shaco's boxes have one huge weakness. A FREE item that lasts 10 seconds, able to be bought by everyone on a team, Oracle's Alteration (Along with Control Wards effect.) How red trinket works against Shaco's traps are completely different from other traps in the game. Against Jhin, Teemo and Nidalee, when the red trinket effect is hovered over the traps, they become visible, reducing their vision and become attackable. Someone MUST attack them to kill them, or they will go back to being invisible once the Trinket/Control Ward effect wears off. It is different with Shaco's boxes. It activates the boxes and leaves them to die after the 5 seconds of lifespan they have after being activated. Take this clip vs Zed for example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xfo6MUG9jQ

In the clip you see Zed pop Oracles Alteration. He's being greedy, so he's running into all the boxes, tanking the damage from them. But any sane person would see the boxes and just walk away. Now take notice of the two boxes at the bottom, they do nothing. They get activated and die after 5 seconds. Those 2 boxes are effectively 30 seconds of the game taken away from Shaco. Red trinket completely reduces this playstyle to irrelevancy. Some great examples of Red trinket if it countered other abilities in the game would be if those two boxes were Teemo shrooms instead, what if they instantly explode when hovered by the red trinket, would that be fair? Or while chasing Singed, if activating red trinket would get rid of his poison trail as you chased him down. It would make these champions completely useless.

Some of you will say that Shaco's "playstyle" is AD Assassin, jump in and one shot. And yes, you are correct, but that's because Riot has nurtured Shaco into that. Every little thing they've done to Shaco has taken away from the box playstyle and pushed him towards an On Hit Assassin. They added on hit damage to backstab, on hit damage to Deceive (Shaco's Q), Changed E from Magic damage to Physical damage. This is the toxic playstyle that everyone hates to play against. Why would you want to argue for more players to play this playstyle? AP Shaco was a unique and intricate way to play Shaco because your playstyle would evolve depending on what your opponent would do or how they would play. And it was always easily counterable, don't chase shaco into his boxes, then he won't have the damage to kill you. But now, with anyone able to /purchase/ a free item, it just devolves the playstyle into nothing.

Riot's explanation of why this is how Red trinkets works is due to melees needing counterplay to Shaco boxes. Yet, there are countless melees in the game that can one shot boxes at level 9, usually the time an enemy will be buying a red trinket. Red trinket makes the Shaco matchup a complete joke because now boxes lose their fear effect and can be one shot. Any meta champion makes a joke out of Shaco boxes once scanned. Here are a couple of examples, Renekton One shots boxes with furried Q, Irelia can Q hops to any visible boxes once her Q is lvl 5, killing each box in one shot. Jax's counterstrike dodges box autos, then stuns them. Aatrox out ranges and one shot's boxes before level 9 due to mass amounts of aoe. Viktor is a ranged champion, so boxes don't effect him much anyway. My point is there are many ways to counter Shaco boxes that don't just make them a worthless ability. Without red trinket, I have a chance to fight back against other champions. The box fear is a main factor of the AP Shaco playstyle, but without it, you're forced to play AP Shaco as an inferior AP on hit Assassin.

My suggestion would to make red trinket have the same effect on boxes that pink wards used to have on them. Give vision of the boxes for Ranged champions to clear, or for lower IQ players to run into. Adding to this, in lane, minions aggro boxes as if they were minions to attack. So if they are revealed, minions will walk into them and activate the boxes. Many of you will probably complain, not wanting a "buff" to AD shaco, but this wouldn't be a buff to AD Shaco. Very few, if any, AD Shaco players will gain any benefit from a change to red trinket. Wrapping this up, this playstyle is supposed to counter stupidity and greediness. Red trinket is just a cheat sheet for the IQ test that are Shaco boxes.

Thank you for your time reading. Much love.

93 Comments

The Blender12/22/2018, 7:39:46 AM39 votes

i feel like boxes should work like teemo shrooms you can see them but they still activate if you run into them just like you suggested

Crispy0Snake12/22/2018, 9:00:47 AM37 votes

The boxes should be silenced and revealed (so that melees can destroy them) for the duration of the oracle, and then go back to their "armed" hidden state imo.

If I use an oracle, and go up to destroy the box, I shouldn't be feared and shot to death, otherwise the boxes have more agency than Teemo's ultimate ability. I know that comparing two abilities in different kits is often a bad idea, but they're both traps that essentially do magic dot and cc.

Also when there are two ways of playing a champion, one will naturally be better than the other, and the meta build of that champion will polarise to the strongest build.

I would like Lich bane supports to be more viable as it would widen the support champion pool and introduce more skill matchups, but reducing the cost of lich bane (because it's gold efficiency compared to ludens, other sheen items and hextech items, is garbage) has knock on effects to lots of champions including, coincidentally, AP shaco. I think AP Shaco suffers from the Lich Bane balancing problem (if you reduce cost and nerf the champions that have it in their meta build to balance them, you create a reliance on that item, meaning their build path becomes less creative. So you keep the cost high to increase creativity, gutting champions that want to build it) and that's a big problem for him imo, as the item should cost 2900 tops. It delays AP shaco's item powerspike by a few key mid game minutes.

I'd also like armour stacking malphite support to be viable, but he can't trade in lane without a lot of damage on his Q so you auto lose vs any enemy bot laners with brains, so he's forced to go AP. I could ask for more base Q damage and less scaling to fix this, but people see "more base damage ree" and won't realise that it encourages tankier builds.

Point is, riot doesn't seem to care too much about how to make champions fun and rewarding to play. They seem to like to make champions awful to play against and unrewarding to play. When I kill someone with one rotation of abilities as AP Malphite support, I feel kinda bad, if anything.

Daddy Ants12/22/2018, 9:53:50 AM16 votes

Oracles should reveal boxes but not activate them.

Sunbird12/22/2018, 8:16:36 AM15 votes

Do you realize, unlike Nidalee, Jhin or Teemo, your traps have ranged attacks with huge damage and AOE fear ? Who cares if you are able to see the traps, when you can not safely approach them to kill them?

Just Monikha12/22/2018, 9:58:23 PM7 votes

Even some Shaco players hate this playstyle, you can't juke or play with enemy's mind anymore, you just jump on it, pray for no Tabi and if no Tabi then it s almost one clic one death, super unhealthy gameplay overall that would produce only frustration either for Shaco players (insta useless after 1100gold item) or for people playing against Shaco (no Tabi = you dead except when you re a tank). Just played a game where i faced Shaco, i told all my team to go straight Ninja Tabi and guess what, the Shaco couldn t even take 1/4 life with full combo, ignite included and i litteraly danced when he was arround then he threw his E to me when i was full life and i just regen the spell the next second like nothing happen. Now imagine if it was AP Shaco, still against full Ninja Tabi and 1 or 2 Oracles, imagine just a second what kind of hell Shaco is also super super super buggy, here s a list of Shaco bugs i ve identified, let s be clear on this point I don t wanna only say bugs that nerf Shaco because i main this champion, having some kind of real balance in this game really seems to be welcome. CARE some of them might be fixed, I havn't tested if they re still here :

Bug on spells only :

  • Backstab cd seems to be canceled by the next autoattack on the blue side gromp and on the scuttle crab next to Herald.
  • Backstab can be procced twice in a row when you autoattacks at the end of the cd.
  • Cancel autoattack after Q cancel the Q invisibility (and damage obviously)
  • Seems to not be special to Shaco since it also happened to me as Kha'Zix and , times to times Shaco Q does not makes Shaco invisible (he can get hit by targeted spells while in Q), same applies for Kha'Zix R.
  • This isn't a bug but i would call it like this : Fear range on Shaco boxes can allow the enemy to get out of box attack range, which is weird.
  • Shaco boxes times to times do not activate when an enemy passes near even if it s way longer after the incantation.
  • Shaco boxes can't hit the Nashor, the Nexus and the inhibitors at some places while they re clearly in range to hit those targets (forces you to pose them in at a special place).
  • NOT A BUG, A JOKE (write it in full caps in case ppl do not understand) : ShAcO E dAmAgE
  • Shaco clone can't hit inhibitors and Nexus by pressing R on those targets, you need to alt clic.
  • Shaco clone times to times do not try to hit the enemy that killed Shaco.
  • Shaco clone times to times will not hit another target than your even if you ordered it.

Bugs on spells with items/runes :

  • Backstab override Stormrazor.
  • Q doesn't proc Luden's Echoes (while other autoattack buffs proc it like Jax W, don't ask me how I know it lmao)
  • W doesn't proc : Luden, Spellthief times to times, Liandry, Dark Harvest and Comet.
  • Clone doesn't get stats from those runes : Celerity, Waterwalking, Gathering Storm, Ghost Poro, Recentless Hunter, Predator, Transcendence, Magical Footwear, Approach Velocity, Overgrowth, Conditioning, Unflinching and Grasp of Undying (he looses the stats you gain) BUT proc on Lethal Tempo and Hail of Blades.
  • Shaco clone can't proc Guinsoo Rageblade.
  • Shaco clone can get link by Zeke's Convergence but not with Knight's Vow.
  • Shaco clone can stack energized attack by walking but can't stack it/ use it by attacking.
  • Shaco clone can't proc the Elexir of Sorcery true damage.
  • You can heal your clone by using Font of life but your clone can't heal you (or it s the contrary, i actually do not remember).
  • You can't heal your clone with Athene's Unholy Grail.

This have been 2 years like this, some Shaco OTP cannot support it anymore, we re getting indirect nerfs every single time Riot Games thinks about an indirect nerf they can make to AD Shaco (no need to AP Shaco when you see his state, pretty sad tho), removal of attack speed from Machete, creation of the passive Monster Hunter for Machete while Shaco seems to be the only jungler that most of times keeps the Machete (thanks God this is finally removed), 2 Tiamat nerfs, Dark Harvest rework and nerf, Electrocute nerf, Sudden Impact nerf, Cheap Shot nerf (i know some Shaco players use this rune), removal of the AD from Celerity, 2 Duskblade nerfs and Ninja Tabi buff on %Damage reduction. All these nerfs in one year, with what compensation ? Oh a 10-50 damage and 70% AD ratio Q buff nerfed the next patch to 30% AD ratio. And this while a majority of Shaco players are yelling for a full revert since 6.22.

So now Riot Games if you read this message do one thing, one simple thing : REVERT SHACO Shaco

Hügö12/22/2018, 11:56:54 AM4 votes

The buff you suggest would make them so that melees couldn't clear them right? That would be pretty lame tbh. I think oracle should make them revealed and activate them when the champion gets in attack range. When he just spots them and walks away they should go back into stealth.

oortoomeebreesuu12/23/2018, 10:43:02 AM3 votes

Pink Ward, you're my favorite one trick. My upvote does nothing, but I'm upvoting harder than ever before.

One Quacky Boi12/24/2018, 3:17:12 AM2 votes

I think a good way to change this would be to prevent the revealed boxes from fearing if someone walks into them, but having them return to invisibilty if noboby steps inside of their attack range.

This Is Your Dad12/23/2018, 1:14:06 AM2 votes

I think that boxes under oracles should be disabled but not trigger. So basically they do not vanish after 5 seconds and act as if you never went near them. Then as a melee you can hit them, offering some counterplay, but as Ap Shaco if you put a crapton of boxes out they won't all vanish just from oracles revealing them. Exactly like teemo shrooms.

DuskDaUmbreon12/23/2018, 3:58:31 AM2 votes

The problem with that is that most melee champions have zero ability to clear them without activating them.

If this happened, it would have to be like what BigBrain said - It would need to still disable them. That, or they just need a total activation range nerf, so that melee champions can actually get in range of it to destroy them.

0 Hogapu12/23/2018, 2:46:43 PM2 votes

Shouldn't revealed boxes be targetable, yet not activated ? Might be unfair for melee champs, but if they know where boxes stand, they will dodge them and voila ..

Cloud27312/24/2018, 12:37:49 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Ward,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A99Ffqh3,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-12-22T07:27:25.646+0000)

Hello, Pink Ward here, long time AP Shaco main living in mid to high diamond for the past couple of seasons. I come here today to talk about AP Shaco and the difficulties the playstyle has faced due to AD Shaco being too strong. AD Shaco is by far the best way to play Shaco. Whether it be Jungle, Full AD Assassin, Duskblade, Yomuus, one shots or Duskblade Trinity Bruiser, it is definitely the best way to play Shaco. This playstyle has very little counterplay, as Shaco's stealth is one of the more infuriating things about playing against the champion. Yet, the champion doesn't have much damage built into his kit. AD Shaco gets most of his damage through the items he snowballs into. And in the longterm of games, Shaco's W is fairly weak and maxed last. It's fairly worthless to AD Shaco players outside of jungle camps or an after thought. This is where my playstyle I've created comes into play.

As an AP Shaco main, I have always tried my best to think ahead and using my game knowledge I've obtained over years of playing, I'm able to predict what my opponents will do. Setting up boxes to try and get the best outcome out of situations. Yet, Shaco's boxes have one huge weakness. A FREE item that lasts 10 seconds, able to be bought by everyone on a team, Oracle's Alteration (Along with Control Wards effect.) How red trinket works against Shaco's traps are completely different from other traps in the game. Against Jhin, Teemo and Nidalee, when the red trinket effect is hovered over the traps, they become visible, reducing their vision and become attackable. Someone MUST attack them to kill them, or they will go back to being invisible once the Trinket/Control Ward effect wears off. It is different with Shaco's boxes. It activates the boxes and leaves them to die after the 5 seconds of lifespan they have after being activated. Take this clip vs Zed for example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xfo6MUG9jQ

In the clip you see Zed pop Oracles Alteration. He's being greedy, so he's running into all the boxes, tanking the damage from them. But any sane person would see the boxes and just walk away. Now take notice of the two boxes at the bottom, they do nothing. They get activated and die after 5 seconds. Those 2 boxes are effectively 30 seconds of the game taken away from Shaco. Red trinket completely reduces this playstyle to irrelevancy. Some great examples of Red trinket if it countered other abilities in the game would be if those two boxes were Teemo shrooms instead, what if they instantly explode when hovered by the red trinket, would that be fair? Or while chasing Singed, if activating red trinket would get rid of his poison trail as you chased him down. It would make these champions completely useless.

Some of you will say that Shaco's "playstyle" is AD Assassin, jump in and one shot. And yes, you are correct, but that's because Riot has nurtured Shaco into that. Every little thing they've done to Shaco has taken away from the box playstyle and pushed him towards an On Hit Assassin. They added on hit damage to backstab, on hit damage to Deceive (Shaco's Q), Changed E from Magic damage to Physical damage. This is the toxic playstyle that everyone hates to play against. Why would you want to argue for more players to play this playstyle? AP Shaco was a unique and intricate way to play Shaco because your playstyle would evolve depending on what your opponent would do or how they would play. And it was always easily counterable, don't chase shaco into his boxes, then he won't have the damage to kill you. But now, with anyone able to /purchase/ a free item, it just devolves the playstyle into nothing.

Riot's explanation of why this is how Red trinkets works is due to melees needing counterplay to Shaco boxes. Yet, there are countless melees in the game that can one shot boxes at level 9, usually the time an enemy will be buying a red trinket. Red trinket makes the Shaco matchup a complete joke because now boxes lose their fear effect and can be one shot. Any meta champion makes a joke out of Shaco boxes once scanned. Here are a couple of examples, Renekton One shots boxes with furried Q, Irelia can Q hops to any visible boxes once her Q is lvl 5, killing each box in one shot. Jax's counterstrike dodges box autos, then stuns them. Aatrox out ranges and one shot's boxes before level 9 due to mass amounts of aoe. Viktor is a ranged champion, so boxes don't effect him much anyway. My point is there are many ways to counter Shaco boxes that don't just make them a worthless ability. Without red trinket, I have a chance to fight back against other champions. The box fear is a main factor of the AP Shaco playstyle, but without it, you're forced to play AP Shaco as an inferior AP on hit Assassin.

My suggestion would to make red trinket have the same effect on boxes that pink wards used to have on them. Give vision of the boxes for Ranged champions to clear, or for lower IQ players to run into. Adding to this, in lane, minions aggro boxes as if they were minions to attack. So if they are revealed, minions will walk into them and activate the boxes. Many of you will probably complain, not wanting a "buff" to AD shaco, but this wouldn't be a buff to AD Shaco. Very few, if any, AD Shaco players will gain any benefit from a change to red trinket. Wrapping this up, this playstyle is supposed to counter stupidity and greediness. Red trinket is just a cheat sheet for the IQ test that are Shaco boxes.

Thank you for your time reading. Much love.

Let's see 53% win rate in plat and 56% win rate in diamond over the past month. Cry me a river. Shaco mains truly are the cancer of LOL. And the fact that this post has almost 100 upvotes speakes volumes about this community. They won't stop b*tching until their champ has ZERO counterplay (oh wait he already does basically) and 100% win rate in every elo.

http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/