So about minions being stronger if you've taken more towers....

Rakvir·11/15/2016, 1:19:48 AM·45 votes·2,278 views

I would like to know if anyone else feels this hidden power, as passive as it is, could be removed and feel it could help with the feeling of late-game helplessness when you're behind.

No one I play with seems to even know this is an actual game mechanic Riot implemented in S6.

I explain it and people still refuse to push out waves and soon enough I'll be the only one desperately trying to keep all three lanes out of our base as the rest of them face check every bush in the jungle chasing someone with 1.5X their movement speed and I just don't even want to play anymore because everything is so overbearing (plus, it's Bronze, you could have a 0-100 team score with nexus exposed at single digit health and an afk or two but people would still veto a surrender vote).

So I can only imagine just how much MORE snow-Bally things are higher up.

Can we find a middle ground here and snip off this extra baggage we never needed in the first place?

I suggest this because it is hidden power that is largely overlooked and given how many other changes have just drastic impact one way or another that wind up causing more of a fit and a hundred other band-aid fixes in response....well, why don't we take a gentle approach this time?

24 Comments

CrazyBear198711/15/2016, 3:18:52 AM7 votes

It seems a lot of changes were made to make games shorter overall.

So once a team has snowballed, it's practically over. no more rubberbanding etc.

Marshbouy11/15/2016, 3:03:41 AM3 votes

I like it because it means that i don't have to go to the center of the lane to farm when i am behind. Much less risky.

Teridax6811/15/2016, 9:43:16 PM3 votes

It is hidden power, even if it had good intentions. During Preseason 6, Riot set out to shorten game durations, which is absolutely great, except their implementation of that was very heavy-handed. The changes initially included massive increases to death timers, which weren't fun for anyone and eventually got fixed, and the minion buff effect still exists, even though probably few players are aware of it now.

I think that system needs to get dropped, since it doesn't really accelerate games in the most interesting way (having all lanes auto-push towards your Nexus without the need to take inhibitors cuts out a lot of potential catchup strategies, even if the effect is slight). However, the game does need to be structured in such a way that games don't stall forever, and I think the solution to that should be towers.

Having strong, protective outer turrets is fine, since they're the first line of defense and are meant to be threatening, but inner, inhibitor and nexus turrets aren't really intended to stall player-led pushes, only prevent minions from heading directly to the nexus and, if it ever happens, prevent teams from deathballing a single lane too early. Beyond the outer set, towers are meant to be objectives players should defend, not the reverse, which means modeling them off the ones designed to work as a safe haven, i.e. outer turrets, is bound to fail. Inner/inhibitor/nexus turrets need to completely change, and pushing advantages should be earned by unlocking access to more clearly vulnerable/valuable lane objectives, not by giving minions invisible buffs.

There was another thread that also talked about turrets, and I feel a possible solution might be for inner etc. towers to not even be turrets anymore. For example, inner turrets could instead be guard towers a la Kingdom Rush, which would spawn anti-creeps to fend off incoming minions, and potentially even release ultra-powerful protector guards if they get attacked in the first few minutes of the game (i.e. anti-deathball protection). Inhibitor turrets and their inhibitors could just be combined into a single minion spawning portal, and destroying it would temporarily disable the losing side's minions in that lane, which would cause it to auto-push towards their nexus while also establishing a clear farm difference (players would also no longer be incentivized to push a lane that lost its inhibitor/spawning portal, since there would be nothing to push). Instead of having nexus turrets, perhaps LoL could take a page from other MOBAs and have each nexus spawn a base guardian boss.

Not only could this make pushing a lot more interesting and better signposted (each tower would have its own precise function, so taking it down would represent more than just a gold bounty and generic pushing power), it would also diversify team comps a lot more: one of the reasons marksmen are such a fixture right now is because other classes have a hard time sieging turrets properly, and allowing more classes to contribute to objectives in their own way (guard towers and base guardians might favor tanks to occupy them, and perhaps all towers could be damaged by abilities, not just autoattacks, at the cost of having a bit more health) would help break their monopoly on objective control, and allow classes to participate in objectives through more factors than just damage, e.g. tankiness, CC or utility.

VoidBorn1311/15/2016, 2:00:17 AM3 votes

THANK YOU finally someone who actually realizes minions DO MORE SHIT when you're behind and need to be feared.

But no riot decides to give me teammates that choose to do krugs and raptors instead while our inhibitor turrets are getting shredded, good idea.

Rakvir11/15/2016, 4:15:48 AM3 votes

I understand the intent wherein minions pushing harder into turrets meaning less exposure by overextension but that only is a valid argument for a very short window of time in the early game. By mid and late-game, teams are grouping and sieging and contesting objectives and minions are USUALLY left alone or else the team that is missing someone that stayed behind to farm minions gets incessantly flamed because their team decided to pick a really stupid fight when they had no assurance of their ability to back up the consequences of their actions.

So basically, stay with team while behind on turrets? Safety in numbers unless dumb actions are made (a very common occurrence), minions already doing a lot of work on turrets just get hammered out that much more easily.

Stay behind to do that safer farming? Lose because your team will, and I mean WILL, fight on very uneven grounds, likely losing. Splitpushing is not viable unless you're ahead by gold value (regardless of objective value) so even then it's kind of a toss-up as to how there's any reasonable expectations.

Bot lane, when behind due to turret being taken, almost always invades mid lane and proceeds to capitalize as much farm as humanly possible, starving the original laner, who then has to face stupid gank potential alone as they try to salvage bot lane farm that would otherwise go to waste, OR....stay with team as bot laners make same mistakes that lost them their starting lane in the first place, causing even STRONGER pressure to group up and teamfight as secondary objectives are much harder to contest, deep warding is almost guaranteed, continuing to farm almost always will cause in-party hostility which leads to greater mistake potential as emotions fly wild and desperation moves allow greater manipulation of the team already losing by a fair margin.

Admittedly, this is a fair bit to the more extreme lines where I can take this example but surely you can see the train of thought, eh?

One cannot deny that there is no black-and-white here. The various shades of grey have so much influence here depending on the situation that in the greater picture, I can't see how this is anything but a detriment to the health of the game for the average player.

LordKentravyon11/15/2016, 8:51:05 PM3 votes

See riots ezcuse for adding this was actually pretty good, but the implementation is terrible.

(They also power up with level advantage)

The idea would be to pewvent the enemy from freezing tbe wave centre lane when they have enough of an advantage to kill you outright if you left tower. Pretty much they would be unable to compelty deny you cs, and when behind you would not have to travel as far into dangerous territory to get Cs

Implementation sucked though ahould have been a champion aura like a mini invisible baron effect, that way the loosing team could still set up minion pushes if the winners are neglecting a lane

TheHappyReaperz11/15/2016, 3:29:55 AM2 votes

The minions only get stronger if you have more towers up than the opposing side. By the minions, I mean the side with less towers. It isn't a snowball mechanic, if anything its anti-snowball.

Wolfram Oxford11/15/2016, 3:10:47 PM2 votes

This would make snowballing so much worse than it already is.

GigglesO11/16/2016, 4:10:27 AM1 votes

{quoted}

I would like to know if anyone else feels this hidden power, as passive as it is, could be removed and feel it could help with the feeling of late-game helplessness when you're behind.

It's actually a recovery mechanic, it allows the wave to get pushed against the losing team's towers, which if defense is stationed properly, means that that team will get more gold.

No one I play with seems to even know this is an actual game mechanic Riot implemented in S6.

You're right, it isn't a very well known mechanic.

I explain it and people still refuse to push out waves and soon enough I'll be the only one desperately trying to keep all three lanes out of our base as the rest of them face check every bush in the jungle chasing someone with 1.5X their movement speed and I just don't even want to play anymore because everything is so overbearing (plus, it's Bronze, you could have a 0-100 team score with nexus exposed at single digit health and an afk or two but people would still veto a surrender vote).

This has nothing to do with the minion mechanic... bad teammates are going to be bad teammates.

So I can only imagine just how much MORE snow-Bally things are higher up.

Ummmm, the minions aren't that bad in higher tiers, most games people fight over who gets the minion wave.

Can we find a middle ground here and snip off this extra baggage we never needed in the first place?

It actually does help/hurt the enemy team.

I suggest this because it is hidden power that is largely overlooked and given how many other changes have just drastic impact one way or another that wind up causing more of a fit and a hundred other band-aid fixes in response....well, why don't we take a gentle approach this time?

It isnt really that well hidden. Hidden power is more approprately getting an extra auto attack where there shouldn't be one. Having more stats, is in no way "hidden".

Slythion11/15/2016, 1:42:45 AM1 votes

wait...that's a thing? when did they even mention it lol

Pandemic Punch11/16/2016, 4:18:55 AM1 votes

I have been talking about this since the change was made. I think the minion pushing needs to be reverted.

ZT Xperimentor11/15/2016, 1:45:48 AM1 votes

Yet every year they either gut or delete aura items & abilities because they're 'invisible power'. Then turn around and add; the mega buff from herald, the buffs to minions, and the dragon effects. And yes, I've noticed it; it's part of what makes comebacks even more rare than shiny pokemon.

Hauling Ashe11/15/2016, 1:48:24 AM1 votes

I feel you. It's no fun getting flamed for desperately defending nexus while your team is diving into Baron pit. "[insert your champ here] wtf y arent u at teamfight????!?!?!!!111"

Cryo0011/15/2016, 7:26:15 AM1 votes

What the fuck......I didn't even know this was a thing. I pushed out waves regardless, but now I have an even bigger reason to do so.

MrWasjig11/15/2016, 9:36:20 AM1 votes

Personally I always found this change a massive contradiction. For the longest time now Riot has been banging on about "removing hidden power" from champion kits, then they go and put a load of it into minions instead...

I know some will argue "But minions aren't champions", but that doesn't matter! Take a stance Riot! Do you want hidden power or not? Auto-pushing bullshit minions were unnecessary then, and they're still unnecessary now.

Cowseed11/15/2016, 3:11:36 PM1 votes

I attempt to push out waves late game. I know what you mean when about 15 minions are 3/4 down the lane and NO ONE goes to push... unless you go there and then they just steal the farm you were about to get. Or that's just me not making myself clear about it.

Dengeden11/15/2016, 4:37:12 PM1 votes

You get more farm if the enemy team scrambles around after taking towers like they do in bronze. You can also make the minions push by killing the casters. Where's the problem?

EcchiOtakuTM11/15/2016, 5:21:48 PM1 votes

It was actually done to prevent "starving" the enemy of resouces cause winions would push preventing freezes if you already taken turrets.

They coulda at least made it so additionally those enhanced winions did less to structures or took more from enemy champs but I don't watch winion patches too in depth.

So it was correct to fix starving but in turn a different issue grew. I'd still take snowball over starving though.