Can we have a serious discussion about Cho'Gath?

commit an hero·8/2/2017, 1:18:23 AM·18 votes·3,621 views

They nerfed assassin (some) so you wouldn't get one shot. You'd have more reaction to do something about it. However, we now have this monster , he was two hard CCs, one soft CC and a TRUE damage nuke. Now if he was building pure AP and one shot me okay that's fine he built damage to do so. However, that's not the case anymore. For some unknown reason there was a Bonus HP ratio added onto his ult. Now before his E changes he wasn't that strong because he didn't have a reliable way to get onto you. Now that he has a slow onto his E it's practically impossible to get away from him.

tl;dr assassin's have to build damage to do damage however they were made to have more windows of opportunity for the enemy player. Not the case with Cho"gath

38 Comments

LadyRenly8/2/2017, 1:59:06 AM11 votes

giving his ult an hp scaling is fucking dumb.

MrHaZeYo8/2/2017, 1:26:58 AM5 votes

Unlike Assassin's he has 0 mobility and is very easily kited. His Q is easily dodgeable and for his E slow to stick he needs to be on top of you.

Riot went on to say

Cho and Stoneplate Speaking of Cho, figured it would be good to talk a bit about him and Stoneplate. We're very much aware there are some strong opinions about Cho and Stoneplate out there and it's a topic with a range of opinions on it internally too. We talked about that particular interaction a lot before launching Stoneplate. Feast's a really high true damage spell, capable of getting to around 1000 damage late game on a tank build, with Stoneplate pushing that up a few hundred more assuming a normal number of Feast stacks. That's more true damage than we'd normally be happy seeing from a champ in a single ability. Cho's got some pretty pronounced weaknesses however, in particular his long cast times, lack of mobility and limited reliability. Between those and the need to build Stoneplate, be around 3+ enemy champs and get into Feast range we concluded it was appropriate to allow the Cho/Stoneplate interaction to exist. So far that's still our take on it at present too. Having said that completely agree it can definitely feel really rough being on the receiving end sometimes and Stoneplate's still pretty high on our watch list. The ability to use strong combos with it allow some pretty interesting uses and makes it appealing in a range of different circumstances. So far that seems appropriate, possible we do have to make some changes to Stoneplate and/or other things if the power of those, especially relative to their counterplay, gets out of line, whether that's Stoneplate+Cho, Stoneplate+Locket or something else again. The increased reliability Cho gets off his E slow's also noteworthy, and it's possible that while this was ok with an unreliable Q that the increased target access he's now got might prove too dominant long term.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo8/2/2017, 3:22:47 AM3 votes

as many have complained about Chogath and being able to use item 3193 and getting more damage via the active with the bonus hp you get from the item its not an issue with the item. its an issue that he gets 10% bonus damage scaling to his ult...

he can have the % hp damage to targets on E thats fine. he can have true damage on ult thats fine... he can have and endless # of stacks on feast im fine with that.

JUST REMOVE THE FUKIN HP SCALING FOR TRUE DAMAGE ON HIS ULT.

I DONT CARE IF THEY BUFF HIS BASE DAMAGE ON HIS ULT FROM 300/475/600 TO 450/700/1000 AS LONG AS HE DONT GET MORE TRUE DAMAGE FOR HAVING MORE HP

just my thoughts...

i know im alone with them

Shuyin1788/2/2017, 3:36:45 AM2 votes

Best part about this, Riot thinks this is an OK thing. They have fucked up with 2 tanks lately, Nasus and Cho'Gath. I hate what Riot has done to these champions an makes me not even want to go top lane anymore.

PhDs Nuts8/2/2017, 6:44:03 AM2 votes

Just make the stoneplate active a shield that lasts for as long as the current active does. Problem with Cho solved, and the item still provides essentially the same benefit as before.

Rockm Sockm8/2/2017, 1:57:52 AM2 votes

Riots statement is complete bullshit because that was their theory upon introducting stone plate.

They have since buffed Cho multiple times. They removed all of the unreliable aspects of his kit.

He is now good at all points of the game with limited counterplay other than an entire team kiting back and using all cds on him.

His Q is easy to land with a e. He has more damage than most without needing to build it.

You cant reduce or stop him from stacking.

Azir was gutted for less, along with numerous other champions.

fuffychan8/2/2017, 3:00:44 AM2 votes

Riot seems to think its fair that tanks can buy all tank items and it increases their DAMAGE

Buy tank items = increased DAMAGE

This shouldnt exist at all like wtf?

DragonShea8/2/2017, 11:30:55 AM2 votes

http://i.imgur.com/oxtCram.jpg

Profirix8/2/2017, 1:15:58 PM2 votes

I don't mind Cho having this high damage, so long as he doesn't stay as sticky as he is. The vorpal spikes slow is just too much on top of everything else. It was fine when his itemimzation was bad, but new righteous glory, combined with stoneplate, give him too much durability and sticking power for how much damage he can put out.

I hate to say this because it will basically just put Cho back in the bad spot that he was in in terms of reliability but get rid of vorpal spikes slow. I know that will be a pretty huge hit in power, so in return give him back the 4% health scaling on E.

Arsenic Sulfur8/2/2017, 6:12:21 PM2 votes

Okay so, Cho'gath's base damage has always been off the charts it was the reason you'd pick him when he wasn't a meta pick. Atleast 700 base damage on ult at level 16.

The stoneplate interaction is fine. In order to even get the damage that Stoneplate+R does Cho needs:

Somewhere around 6K health outside of Stoneplate, which requires major HP items such as Cinderhulk or Warmogs, lots of stacks, and HP runes
Needs to be near 3 enemy champions, all of whom can interrupt him long enough for something like RG to wear off and considering how BIG Cho gets...
He has to get close to someone worth ulting. This shouldn't happen without team assistance unless a carry screws up and gets hit by Q and even then peel is really strong currently. All of these conditions for around 1.4k true damage. This isn't accounting for the full AP build which would kill you with Q+W alone, nor the AP bruiser build which I don't think even considers stoneplate in favor of something with tankiness around the clock.

"B-but he's a tank! They reworked assassins because of this level of damage!" Cho'gath isn't a tank! His peel is meh and he can't engage for shit thus he can't fall under a tank subclass. He has too much range and CC to be a Juggernaut, and he doesn't really have sustained damage so he isn't a battle mage. Cho'gath is Cho'gath and like how a cosmic horror isn't bound to our laws of reality, he isn't bound to our classifications.

Tusutaki8/2/2017, 3:36:40 PM1 votes

Honestly, I feel that the worst offender was buffing his E in a such drastic way. An AOE slow with % max HP damage AOE that scales with Feasts? Good lord all of my whys. Top Cho can chunk a good amount of health with his E alone without the Top Laner even being near him. Why doesn't his E's damage scales down from distance like Tiamat?

At the very least, make his E apply half of it's damage past it's initial target. Because all this does is narrow the top picks even more.

XIII Vanitas8/3/2017, 8:58:15 AM1 votes

Cho has 1 hard cc (his Q). Silence and slow still allow you to move, so they're soft cc.

Dr Poro8/2/2017, 2:52:38 PM1 votes

The counterplay against cho is to not get in range. His hard CC can be dodged and his slow requires him to be in range already or have a minion/champion as vessel. I know it really feels like bullshit when you get oneshot by a tank, but his winrate in the lane is below 50%. He's still great as a jungler but Cinderhulk will be targetted. They probably should've nerfed the ulti instead of the E.

ThePikol8/2/2017, 6:31:03 AM1 votes

Just make it deal physical / magic dmg depending what target has less defence for. If enemy have a lot of armor it deal magic dmg etc. This would still be hard to itemise agains but problem with Stoneplate would be fixed

Pendergast8918/2/2017, 5:21:06 AM1 votes

Or give his ult damage based off the amount of stacks he has, not bonus health. And/Or remove the slow from his q.

Evil Yasuo8/2/2017, 6:58:23 AM1 votes

Don't forget the fact that he doesn't lose stacks anymore so there is no counterplay.