Jungle is at the moment, unfun. Instructions on how to FIX. Dev read, please. Ty.

Fuzzy zombie kit··3 votes·1,415 views

Jungle is not fun. And in my opinion has been this way since Season 3.

Right now there isn't an option for who to jungle with. You really have about 5 choices. Warwick, Udyr, Fiddlesticks, and to a lesser extent, shyvana and lee sin.

With the introduction of the hunter machete and re-tool of vamp, it was told to us, a long time ago, that by making itemization for Junglers, more specific, it would allow us to use and see MORE junglers, while securing the junglers role and keeping others out.

The problem isn't that the jungle is "too hard" or that select characters need to be nerfed hard (WW wasn't a problem last year, why is he now?) .

Follow logic here please, its simple.
Its because, THE JUNGLE ITEMS ARE TOO WEAK.

We know this because: A. The jungle is meant to be for the junglers only, the buff of the jungle monsters was meant to emphasize that, to keep the non-junglers off golems etc early game. B. The jungle items were meant to keep the teams jungler, able to jungle. C. We were told that we were going to see MORE diversity in the jungle. (which we have not). D. This is the important one. ONLY THE CHARACTERS WITH HIGH SUSTAIN ARE JUNGLING, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO RECALL AFTER EVERY 3 CAMPS.

Adding 4 armor to eve did not do the trick. Jungle eve is not viable. The same is true for a lot of junglers that were, once upon a time, viable.

Sure, i can jungle just about everyone. But going back after every camp IS NOT viable.

So. Warwick is a problem right now. Huge issue. Fiddlesticks too.

What happens if you nerf them? Jungle still hits too hard, and is both A. Unfun. And B. Championed by the character with the best sustain.

Keep nerfing all the sustain champs and guess what? Your looking at another irelia nerf. Sad. (Hasn't she suffered enough?)

What happens if you nerf the jungle? Well, you have bottom lane stealing golems again (which they already still do). You nullify all the ideas that went into making jungle different.

So how do you fix this? SIMPLE!

A. Give the jungle items SUSTAIN. Instead of nerfing everyone with sustain, that can keep full health during jungle.

    Hunters machete (almost fixed)- Passive Jungler:  Deal 30 true damage on hit to monsters  over 2 seconds and gain 50 Health and 3 Mana per second while in combat with monsters.

How simple. Monsters still hitting hard. But now only the jungler can sustain it.

B. Give the jungle items a mechanic that stabilizes clear time for everyone!

   Hunters machete (getting there)- Passive Jungler:  Deal 4 true damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds.  This damage doubles every 2 seconds.   You gain 50 health and 3 mana per second while in combat with monsters.   (4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128)

Strong enough so that no one will be stunted by jungling early. DOES NOT SCALE. Prevents the late game abuse that Season 2-3 life-steal saw.

This way, no matter the character, there will not be more than a 4-6 second difference in killing a mob. This allows for ALL characters, to some degree, be viable choice for jungle.

C. RESTRICTION: MUST BE FIRST PURCHASE!

 To prevent everyone on Summoner rift from buying it to sustain off jungle mobs.

D. Change cost of hunters machete to 475 gold.

  Now that the hunters machete does what it should, you do not need potions.  And we need to restrict the gold as much as possible to keep people in lanes from picking it up to go heal in the jungle.  

And... fixed. Now we can jungle as everyone. Everyone sustains. So ww is not OP, because the enemy jungler can go just as fast as WW. stay at full just like enemy ww.

This allows for more interaction in counter jungling.

This allows for more DIVERSITY.

This is what this game needs at this point, not a bunch of items that DO NOT get the job done.

(sorry for any bad grammar and/or spelling problems, friend of mine is urging me to stop typing and actually play)

Thank you to all that took the time to read, and consider how this would actually work.

25 Comments

Wînter Fox2 votes

I disagree completely. We just had a full season of #Diversity where every champion could jungle, every jungle item had sustain, the camps were weak, and they re-spawned every 2 seconds. We saw Lee/Elise/Kha'Zix in every single high-elo game because they were the best at clearing the pathetic jungle in 10 seconds and then could spend hours ganking.

Screw that. There's so many benefits to these changes that actually give junglers options and make smite meaningful. You actually have to think about what masteries/runes/items to get to succeed with your particular jungler style. Who would've thought? I'd take that any day over someone maining jungle Anivia.

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

No. You saw them in every high -elo game because there WAS NO diversity.

di·ver·si·ty dəˈvərsədē,dīˈvərsədē/ noun the state of being diverse; variety. a range of different things.

" We saw Lee/Elise/Kha'Zix in every single high-elo game"

THAT IS NOT DIVERSITY.

Did you see karthus jungle? nope. Definately not in high-elo.

What about jinx, lucian, lissandra, zac, quinn, thresh, nami, zed, syndra, diana, zyra, jayce, draven, darius, varus, lulu, fiora, nautilus (who was made out to be ajungler), ziggs, viktor, ahri, fizz, graves, xerath, leona, yorick, orianna, vayne, rumble, brand, karma, renekton, caitlyn, cassiopeia, irelia, leblanc, lux, swain, kog'maw, urgot, katarina, ezreal, vladamir, nidalee, kennen, poppy, akali, nasus, heimerdinger, mordekaiser, gragas, malzahar, miss fortune, ashe, zilean, morgana, tristana, sion, kayle, ryze, soraka, sivir, singed, janna, twisted fate, kassadin, corki, veigar, sona, galio, twistch, annie, anivia?

You know. 3/4th of the champs? Among others that are more deserving than them, they did not see any high elo jungling.

Sure. You may not want to see jungle anivia.

I personally would love to see a season where the meta wasn't ABSOLUTELY predictable.

1/2 the time bans are right on the money, because people pick the same champs. Not just FOTM, its FOTY. It gets old.

Jungle anivia would be AWESOME. Just my 2 cents.

Wînter Fox1 votes

Did you see karthus jungle? nope. Definately not in high-elo.

That is issue with S4's "Everyone can jungle!" strategy. I've seen Karthus, Tristana, Malzahar, Vayne, etc. etc. etc. jungle. Every champion was decent at it. Literally, everyone could jungle. The problem with making the jungle easy and everyone able to jungle is that it creates ONE way to play the jungle - clear it then gank. Whoever clears the fastest and ganks the best is the best choice- the monsters did no damage so health wasn't even a concern. Once you get to high elo and serious gameplay, no one is going to Janna jungle over Lee when Lee clears 20 seconds faster. No one is going to choose Yorick jungle over Kha'Zix because Kha ganks better. That's why S4's Diversity failed so hard because it created a straightforward tier list. You really think the pros are going to not just pick the top 3? It's ironic how opening up the jungle to every champion makes the champion pool so tiny in high-elo.

S5 is about diversity of gameplay. I can farm jungle, counter-jungle, duel, and/or gank. I can choose AD, AP, AS, or Tank. Smite is not just some button you press when it's off CD.

While I agree the available pool of champions is smaller in general, it opens up different playstyles and individuality. In lower elos, you no longer can troll around with Soraka jungle- but in higher elos you don't have to play Lee/Elise/Kha to be be a serious jungler anymore.

I personally think it's a trade off well worth it. I hate Soraka and Anivia junglers.

AtheosisX1 votes

Right now there isn't an option for who to jungle with. You really have about 5 choices. Warwick, Udyr, Fiddlesticks, and to a lesser extent, shyvana and lee sin.

I stopped reading after this sentence. What nonsense....

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

We are all entitled to our opinions.

Not all of us are entitled to logic, or good reading comprehension.

AtheosisX1 votes

This thread is proof of that.

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

Yes i'm sure its like that everywhere you go.

FiendOfOne1 votes

Right now there isn't an option for who to jungle with. You really have about 5 choices. Warwick, Udyr, Fiddlesticks, and to a lesser extent, shyvana and lee sin.

Rengar Amumu Trundle Maokai Rammus Vi Pantheon Shaco JarvanIV

I'm sure there are more. These are just the ones I use.

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

Yeah, like i said, There is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between a 2:54 clear.

And being at full health, and going back to clear again because your lanes are good.

And a 5 minute clear, that requires you to recall, and nets you.... BOOTS! All for another 5 minute clear.

Have u even tried mumu in jungle after his recent early game nerf?

Yes i agree, these were junglers that worked well last year. Pants, vi, and rengar are tier 2.

But compared to the 5 i listed. They are pretty crappy, and the reason is sustain.

WereScrib2 votes

...Umm. Pantheon,. Fiddles, Master Yi and Warwick are the actual top jungler picks right now. Warwick is unfortunately god, and if he is nerfed without changes to Devourer/skirmishers, Master Yi will be god. Pantheon and to a lesser extent Fiora are problems because of their extreme dragon control.

The problem lies right now in how important the level 1 dragon buff is and how powerful Devourer and Skirmisher's Saber is on Warwick, Yi, Fiora and similar junglers.

Also, Warwick has been exceptionally powerful when fed for a long while. His difficulty was that he was hard to get moving in the retarded fast clear of the last jungle.

Sustain is also not the problem. Seriously. I can sustain fine in the jungle as Eve. (Her issues lie in lacking itemization, Elder Lizard gave her a huge, cheap, damage spike/clearspeed spike) You just need to use the fact you're terrifyingly fast, clear fast, and need to utilize items that keep you alive. (Trailblazers, careful smite usage/rotation)

This jungle is amaaaazing. It just needs...uh. Some tweaking. Its preseason though, what do ya expect?

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

Yi and panth have slow clear times comparably to the 5 i listed.

WW and Fiddles, i myself listed.
Don't know how you missed that. Its the point of the whole thing.

Getting through an initial clear of 3 mobs with eve. Is different than SUSTAINing with full health. Which is the "issue" with ww, fiddles, lee sin, and udyr (they all have built in shields, and life steal)

You find that out when you actually get to a point where you have to deal with people counter-jungling you (which they will tear you to shreds if they have say, udyr, and they see you pick eve)

Vi should have probably been included on that list. But, no one is perfect.

I'd expect diversity. ESP for season 5. And ESP since it was promised with the creation of hunters machete.

FiendOfOne2 votes

Actually, yes. I main Amumu and play him almost every day. Unless something goes wrong, I pull a level 3 gank at 70 percent health.

Panth can level 1 solo dragon.

Vi and Rengar still have really strong ganks, even early (I say as someone who is learning rengar and have only had less than a quarter of my games with a negative score - many of those kills from early game pressure).

I think your problem is trying to do full clears in the jungle. Three camps, go to a lane if you can. If there is no reasonable ganks, I usually farm until about halfway to level 5. If I can get a gank or two, I'll be level 5 before my first back.

So if I, a lowly Silver 5, is having so little problems with running with them... well. I know for a fact that you're incorrect. So you can choose to believe me or not. But I'm not going to argue with you. If you choose not to listen, that's on you.

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

"Panth can level 1 solo dragon."

Lvl 1 solo dragon.... Sorry. Flat out your lying.

Yes, Vi and Rengar have strong ganks i admitted they are playable. Clear times are much slower though, because you have to rune/mastery set to armor.

No, its not that i'm trying to do full clears. I can jungle with great success. Thats not an issue, with over 4000 games under my belt since season 1.

What is an issue, is that fiddles, udyr, ww, etc, can jungle as much as they want. Which is why they are considered GOD tier. Look it up brah.

Well lowly silver 5. You'll find out the meta changes each time you rank up. Until you eventually realize what the real meta is.

Lord Dusteon2 votes

"Panth can level 1 solo dragon."

Lvl 1 solo dragon.... Sorry. Flat out your lying.

Yes, Vi and Rengar have strong ganks i admitted they are playable. Clear times are much slower though, because you have to rune/mastery set to armor.

No, its not that i'm trying to do full clears. I can jungle with great success. Thats not an issue, with over 4000 games under my belt since season 1.

What is an issue, is that fiddles, udyr, ww, etc, can jungle as much as they want. Which is why they are considered GOD tier. Look it up brah.

Well lowly silver 5. You'll find out the meta changes each time you rank up. Until you eventually realize what the real meta is.

...Heimerdinger can level 1 solo dragon, so can pantheon. Due to his passive, he can easily keep it up to block all of drag's attacks and take it.

Pretty sure if you don't even know the most visible early dragoner can do dragon early you don't know the jungle as well as you think.

FiendOfOne3 votes

Flat out lying huh?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL10lRaJGsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjLFdBwEcFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj7GhxL8C9E

Hrm. Wanna check your facts before slinging around false accusations?

Also, no, my runes and masteries on Rengar are not set to armor. They are actually 21/9/0, and I'm running 2 AD quints, one armor quint, armor seals, scaling mr glyphs, and armor pen marks. My clear times are just fine. Start at krugs, then red, then blue. Level 3 gank.

Also, let me look up some tier lists.

Jungle Gods: Warwick, Pantheon, Fiddlesticks, Vi Jungle Tier 1: Sion, Wukong, Jarvan IV, Amumu, Sejuani, Volibear, Xin Zhao, Master Yi

Here's another one, listing the top tier junglers: Fiddle, Lee Sin, Nasus, Nunu, Pantheon, Rengar, Shaco, Vi, Warwick, Wukong, Xin Zhao

Here's another: Shaco, Vi, Kayle, Nocturne, Rengar, Warwick, Xin Zhao, Fiddlesticks, Nunu

Update version of the first one from a few days ago: Gods: Warwick, Pantheon, Fiddlesticks, Vi Tier 1: Sion, Wukong, Jarvan IV, Master Yi, Sejuani, Volibear, Amumu

What was I looking up again? About how Vi and Panth are god tier despite not having sustain? Huh, weird.

Wînter Fox1 votes

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Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

Apparently you missed the part where he said "Currently on the PBE".

This never made it to live. Ever.

FiendOfOne2 votes

Sure, you can think that. I've personally witnessed it happen. There are board posts about it all the time. And it's currently being fixed on PBE. Go ahead and be incorrect. Ignore proof, and don't do your research.

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

Notice, my quotation is from the video you posted. Your proof is that it was on the PBE. Its never made live.

FiendOfOne1 votes

Yes it has. And I posted multiple vieos. I can post more if you would like? Whatever. I'm done with this conversation, to be honest. My point's been made. You've made every point for me I needed to.

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

No need to post more PBE vidoes. Two is enough, we're takling about live.

waves hand Begone troll!

Dryditch1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL10lRaJGsU <-- Live custom game. Guy waited to get two daggers, then went to dragon.

Lord Dusteon1 votes

Good idea, but maybe reduce true damage per second to 64 at max and reduce the sustain a bit (you still want fast clear or high sustain champions to have some advantage compared to better ganking junglers; homogenizing every clear does not help).

Fuzzy zombie kit1 votes

Perhaps, but the point is to keep clear time within a reasonable margin of time difference.

The 4-6 second difference adds up after you get through the 6 camps on the field. Let alone through-out the game.

If you think a jungler gets through 50 camps in a game, 6 sec difference each. One jungler is already behind by 200-300 seconds. Thats 3-5 minutes. A huge chunk of a 45 minute game.

By closing that gap you open the game to diversity.

It won't be homogenized, as each character has its own unique skillset still.

Just imagine jungle lulu working out well.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Give the jungle items SUSTAIN. Instead of nerfing everyone with sustain, that can keep full health during jungle.

This is what the old Spirit Stone did, and what led to fast clearing, strong ganking junglers being the only junglers being played.

Give the jungle items a mechanic that stabilizes clear time for everyone!

But we want tradeoffs between jungle champions. We don't just want to see jungling be a contest of who has the best ganks.

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