Riot, you are making jungle diversity lower... foxdrop has some recommendations
You are not hitting already top junglers... you are hitting low junglers
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Its a pretty huge indictment of how bad Riots changes to the jungle have been since the update that folks like foxdrop and stonewall008 are being so blunt on calling Riot out on it. Normally these types of folks take a very measured approach to their negative feedback because no lol media figures want to end up on Riots naughty list considering how big of a bully they are to those that dont obey. Stonewall starts his vid with "Right now jungle diversity is a joke." Ouch. The jungle is so unsatisfying he is willing to risk the naughty list.
Stonewall toward the end of vid says,"I cant lie man jungling right now feels so unfun and so unfulfilling. I hope Riot comes up with a fix soon because right now its obnoxious and honestly just unfair."
If these sorts of things dont get Riots attention nothing will.
Sonewall008 came out with a similar video recently too. Seems like every jungler I've talked to is saying the same thing.
The solution is to do to other junglers what they did for Nid. Give them a way to clear early well. ANY jungler can have something added to their kit that either reduces damage they take only from monsters, increases damage they do only to monsters, or heals them for damage they do to monsters. Hell, some junglers would only need to have "does reduced damage or capped damage/healing against monsters" removed as a restriction to their jungling.
This can easily be done without directly affecting their ganking or scaling, since the only thing that matters is how fast they clear early or how much health they have left after a clear. Once that is done, we would get a better picture of who needs nerfs because their ganks are just way too strong if they can clear fast and stay healthy (like Jarvan and Lee Sin) and who needs nerfs because the faster clear helps them scale into late game builds a little too fast (like no one currently since those junglers are all too weak early to survive the jungle.)
**Riot does not want jungle diversity. Season 5 is the year of the lies. Riots new meta is "say one thing, do the opposite" just like politicians do. **
Riot is replacing 15% of the champion roster with each new hyper mobile/CC champion release and keeping big mobile money makers like Lee Nid Ahri Zed alive in the meta.
These videos are all well and good but frankly there is 1 fact that isn't mentioned in either video and if it isn't addressed we will NEVER have jungle diversity.
Lee Sin is a cancer of the jungle. He has been since release and he continues to be now. By himself he will completely negate any attempt at a tank jungler, as he can counter jungle and bury the likes of Naut/Hec/Skarner/etc. If you pick someone who can fight him in the jungle, say Shyvana, he will proceed to no care as he ganks the hell out of your lanes and buries your team. You can't really pick a jungler who has better objective control as the scaling health damage of his Q+Smite pretty much can't be out done unless you have something really random like Cho'gath jungle.
Lee has THRIVED, not survived but THRIVED, in every possible jungle meta has had been faced with. Season 2 the season of Mundo/Shyvana counter jungle oppression? No problem Lee just trashes your laners while having a fast enough clear speed to keep up with them. Season 3 when it became the era of heavy gankers like Elise/Xin/Kha/etc no problem Lee keeps up with their ability to gank their ability to clear and he can duel them in the jungle without worry. We try to introduce Feral Flare into the game so hyper carry junglers can do something, lol nope Lee Sin is there to make sure they never get out of their weaker early game while burying your laner buddies as you attempt to farm whats left of your jungle.
The jungle revolves around Lee Sin, and more than creep changes, more than objectives changes, more than item changes, Lee Sin dictates what will and won't work in the jungle and he has done it since his release. If you want jungle diversity Lee Sin needs to be dealt with so other junglers can actually have a prayer, without that it doesn't matter what changes you make he will always dominate the jungle.
Today I played two games as Rengar.
One of them, I got a leash and still got executed on second cap (krugs - red) 2nd time, I used ferocity q and escaped with under 100 hp.
This fundamental jungle bar is KEY I think Rengar is a 2nd tier jungler and he can barely survive 2 camps
IMO, give top junglers some damage nerfs early then make the camps hit softer (or less hp)
I do not understand why you should pay for changing jungle items at early state.
Big thing here was, if your jungle is slow farmer at low levels, or it has low dmg, for example tanks jungles.
You could take 
and use it to keep up with higher tier junglers, who can manage the jungle easily.
Basicly the negative side of jungling with tankish or "slow starting" jungler, was that you couldn't have 
at the early game.
But you could change it at somepoint, before the big item.
Now what happens, is "second tier/ slower jungles" as stuck with at the end game, given anyone else more advantage agaist them.
We really want diversity at jungle and lots of opportunities in champ select. Not just "Play lee sin or jarvan."
I main Jungle and this is who I play:
Three of those are tanks, so I've become well aware how bad tanks are in the Jungle right now. I still have fun in the new Jungle, in fact I like it more than the old. The variety of buffs is rewarding and offers strategy to what was just a farm fest with a ganking buff and sustaining buff. Skarner is underpowered and Amumu has mana issues despite having fast clear. I literally cannot build tank on these tank Junglers because I would take too much damage. Slow clears and low HP ganks would dominate my games. I am forced to build damage on these champions (except Shyvana, she clears like a boss) and I feel like the only thing the Jungle needs is a buff to tanks. Juggernaut is on Riot's hit list (they said so themselves) and certain tank Junglers are going to be looked at. Skarner will remain low tier but Amumu and Rammus are going to be updated to fit the season 5 Jungle.
Both of the videos posted really hit the nail on the head. The current jungle isn't fun for anyone.
-Do you enjoy fighting for your Lee/Vi/Rek in champ select?
-Do you enjoy coming dangerously close to being executed after a leash?
-Do you enjoy sweating over whether or not the enemy jungler invades and ruins you for the next 5 levels?
Great Video really enjoyed your analysis.
On the topic of your video IMO the only direct way to begin fixing the jungler is to directly hit its problems.
That being Lee Sin/Vi being the top junglers they need to be directly targeted before any other changes can happen.
Secondly Tank Junglers need to have their damage increased Vs Monsters and Neutral creeps. By for example making it so Nauts magic damage on his Shield doesn't dissipate when the shield goes down and instead has a fixed duration which increases in level would severely help him in the jungle. I would even reckon saying that it could potentially even fix Nautilus outright. For amumu perhaps Having his E have the cooldown reduced by 2 seconds instead of one when attacked by a jungle monster or neutral creep could be a good change as well although that might make it a bit too crazy but that could always be adjusted with a slightly higher mana cost.
Those are just 2 examples of a tanky jungler change that could bring back to popular CC tank Junglers.
My biggest concern though is they need to decide what they want Lee Sin to be because right now hes a bit of everything.
He can build tanky and be insanely beefy. He can be Damage and put out some of the highest damage out there. He can be mixed and still do great damage.
I went against a Lee Sin earlier in my games who built all 90 percent tank and warrior attack damage enchant in the jungle. He wasn't fed and he wasn't doing particularly well but by mid/late game was so tanky that no one could solo him and his high damage ensured that he was a prominent threat that had to be stopped. So they need to decide what Lee Sin is before they do anything else because until they do absolutely nothing they change in the jungle will ever matter because it will probably always effect Lee Sin in a positive manner.
Could not possibly have said it better myself. This is the issue with the new jungle.
I think....
That the new jungle is better than the old one. There's more toys, there's more tools and in general, it's more evolved and more it's own unique thing.
It's just so much worse balanced.
One of the main problems is (as Foxdrop points out in that video there) that the first clear is so... difficult.
And not just mechanically difficult or anything, it's a difficult puzzle to sort out. Because, you have to sort out so many things about your route, where do you start, which order do you do the camps in, which camps do you take, which camps do you smite, when do you recall, what do you do after you recall before trying to gank?
Honestly, it was looking pretty decent before the tier 2 upgrade cost was changed so that you had to do 4 camps (or run gold/10 masteries, that actually works too, barely), but the fact is, that the longer your route gets, then the more dependent you get on being able to do at least one out of two things.
- Clearing the Razors safely
- Smiting red for the massive health return.
Now, if you were to start krugs, your smite is maybe gonna be back up for red as second camp if you're running utility masteries for the smite cooldown (depending on how fast your clear is, and how good a leash you're getting). If you can safely take the razors first (at lvl 2) then you're gonna be able to ensure it'll be back up before then.
If you start gromp then you'll have plenty of time to ensure you can smite red for the extra health.
To take the razors, you need either swift single target damage, or really good area damage. Because the small ones shred you hard. Now, trailblazer gives you really good AoE on them, but you won't have that on your first clear. Meaning you need that AoE in your kit. And there's very few champions who have that kind of AoE in their kit.
Alternatively, if you can kill them a bit too slowly but have a shield or some other really good sustain, then you can maybe make it alright-ish against them.
And if you can't do either of these, then you probably don't have the capacity to clear 4 camps comfortably before recalling.
Speaking of recalling. That's one of the cores of the problem right there. Unless you have so good sustain you can hit lvl 3 (or 4 even) and the gank a lane, you have to recall and then do the rest of your clear. When you recall, you really do need to be able to get the tier 2 machete upgrade and some more potions because of how brutal the jungle is, and how much you rely on those tools.
So then there's no wonder that when the cost goes up the only ones left viable are the ones who can either gather enough gold for their tier 2 machete and some potions at their first recall, and the ones who remain healthy enough after 3-4 camps to go on either farming or ganking.
As a side note, if you could take scuttler then that would be one thing, but the scuttler is so damn hard to kill that most junglers can't do it quickly enough without hard CC (Rengar can take it pretty quickly if he uses his amped E and spends his ferocity on that). If the scuttler wasn't so damn tanky then taking it early in the game would be a viable thing to do. The fact that it's so tanky, means the speed shrine/ward it leaves might at times last only barely longer than the time it took you to kill it.
Really, the thing with a very tough jungle, is that it requires so specific clears. And finding the best route is not necessarily easy (because it takes so long time to test it out), and for the fringe cases, finding the best route is finding the only route.
It also means that if it takes you too long to scale up to clearing camps really, really quickly. Then you're not gonna make it in the long run either.
And this is without going into how vulnerable you might be to counterjungling (because if someone took the krugs and you can't beat the razors instead, you don't have a choice but to back early).
The new jungle could definatively be really good. If only the tier 2 jungle items were made more uniue to eachother (like if Trailblazer gave you longer buff durations). And the first couple of clears were easier to vary with. A lot of that goes into what you can buy at first back (ideally that's machete upgrade, boots and some pots) though the razors being less brutal would certainly help.
I do agree with what theyre saying. Im unranked so maybe my opinion doesnt hold much weight, but fk it here it goes. I started jungling awhile back and after I learned how it worked, what was needed and how to do it. I started with warwick, as hes a good champion to learn on. can sustain himself just fine and doesnt even need a leash. his ganks were good, but he couldnt even gank till 6 reliably. since warwick is a single target attacker with no aoe skills at all, after I cleared once Id back and get a trailblazer. after all, less time clearing waves means I level faster and I can help out my lanes faster. after I hit 6 and decided to start ganking id pick up a skirmishers blade. and that was necessary really, chilling smite doesnt really do anything for you in the jungle its useful for most junglers cause...there really not that fast. and if shits warded, you can prolly still go in for a gank but their gonna start running. you can catch em still, but that chilling smite is gona be the difference between burning their flash/killing them or just wasting time not farming in your jungle on a failed gank. most people do burn their flash if theyre low on hp and get smited after all.
I do something similar when i play vi, granted she doesnt necessarily need the trailblazer. But in either case, I now gotta either stick to one item or spend 250 on switching to a different one. and I dont like this at all. (thats only 110 away from a long sword)
on that topic, jungling has become boring. reasons why? yknow.. I dont have a lot of champions yet. hit 30 only about 2 weeks ago and as such Im still working on getting a rune page together. But I do have a few, Udyr, vi, yi, warwick.. oh thats all I got. I hear udyrs a good jungler, but ill tell you what, hes so outclassed by vi that if I have the choice ima pick her instead. Udyrs fun to play in the jungle, but not necessarily good.
lets just say this, why would I play a champ who has to constantly switch stances to clear ONE camp when I can pick someone who can literally gather them all up and hit em with an cone of damage consistently? better yet, you can start gromp, get blue, wolves, razorbeaks, red, and go straight to dragon. Ive done this a lot. Vi can take drag at 4:00-4:45 ish before she backs if you do well enough in jungle.
Even with this rant, jungle is really fun to play. But since the needs of the team are a strong jungler and not one I necessarily enjoy. ofc I gotta pick the best ones. and thats whats made it boring
But... 5AD guys. Trust Rito they have a master plan.
Been saying this crap since the very beginning. Hate the new jungle always have (yes some ideas they had for it are cool and good and maybe could be fun....). Overall I enjoyed jungling almost exclusively when I wanted to do something else I could run a few normals and do that but enjoyed jungling and experimenting with new junglers. That literally doesn't exsist anymore. It literally took all the fun of the game away.
"You're talking as if foxdrop is some kind of diamond 1 jungle main." -Keyori 2014
He does make a very good point, every game i've played today has been against Vi. The problem is, they claim to be trying to create diversity by changing the items, but as that can also effectively buff the vi's, jarvans, etc just as much, it doesn't help. I don't know why they can't just buff all of the other junglers.
The jungle needs to change, care or don't care your choice. http://pastebin.com/E29ybEDc