Tahm Kench Changes (NOTICE ME MEDDLER SENPAI)

Draconian565·9/1/2017, 2:51:05 PM·46 votes·3,494 views

So.. back when Tahm Kench was first released. He had a horrible early game and a better late game because of the % max-health damage on his ultimate scaling tremendously. It was compensation for the abusive laning phase that Tahm suffered until after 6. It was eventually nerfed from 8% to 6% because a support dealing 200 damage per AA was a bit strong in the late game.

However, after the rework (where his % max-health damage was moved from his ultimate to his passive), his early game has become much better, but his late game has become abyssmal and here's why:

From the levels of 1-10, each autoattack only gives 1% max-health damage per stack. At Lv11-15, it gives 1.25%. At Lv16+, it gives 1.5%. As the game progresses, others passively gain MR or buy MR items, making this slight increase in percentage not enough to counterbalance the growth, which is why Tahm Kench drops to a 43% win rate post-35 minutes (be it top lane or support).

From playing many games of Tahm Kench Top/Support, I believe that this damage needs to changed for the following reason:

  1. You need stacks to be able to deal even the slightest amount of damage. Back then, it was 6%. At Level 16, even with 3 stacks, you only deal 4.5% max-health damage. Although it is also applied on Tahm's abilities, his damage abilities are on a 6 second and 14 second cooldown with 0 CDR, meaning that it barely matters in any fights since you'll just get 1 of each ability off.
  2. Tahm's glory days are in the early game (0-25 minute mark) and as a support in the Ardent Censer meta, it rarely gets these types of fights unless he's roaming (which is harder pre-6), so he ends up wasting much of his strong point and becomes weaker and weaker.

Suggested Change: It's so weird for the percentage to just sit at 1% for 10 levels (Lv1-10) and then change every 5 levels (Lv11-15 and Lv16+) afterwards. I would recommend the following: Lv1-5 = 1% per stack Lv6-10 = 1.33% per stack Lv11-15 = 1.66% per stack Lv16+ = 2% per stack

Another possible flat out change would just be change it to: Lv1-5 = 1.5% Lv6-10 = 2.5% Lv11-15 = 3.5% Lv16+ = 4.5%

This also would solve the problem of getting stacks in teamfights to be able to deal damage (before 3 stacks, you deal negligible damage) since it no longer bases the damage on stacks and is still worst than the 6% before the rework so people shouldn't complain about it too much.

**Side note: **Tahm should be able to apply stacks onto Dragon, Baron, Red, Blue Buff, but not be able to devour them. They are insanely hard to clear in the early game and not being able to eat them but increasing damage would be a great bone to us Kench bakas.

This would still be balanced because in order to achieve Tahm's former damage, you still need to apply 3 stacks in order to do so, so the damage would not be too extravagant in team fights, but also allow Tahm to scale slightly better than he currently does.

The intention of the rework was to make Tahm a most consistent champion overall, but I feel that keeping the % stagnating for the majority of Tahm's early game, when he shines the most, is actually counter-intuitive to the intention of the rework. Yes, his early game is great now but his late game is absolute crap (it's just a swap between the old Kench which had a bad early game and good late game). My suggested change would leave Tahm in a better place (he averages a 47% win rate), but not to a point where he would be omg one-shot master yi pls nerf.

In short, I would like some consistency with Tahm Kench when it comes to his place in the game, regardless in early or late game. Let me know what you guys think!

22 Comments

Dannar Hetoshi9/1/2017, 5:09:29 PM15 votes

750k Mastery LVL 7 Tahm Kench TahmKench Main chiming in here:

Tahm Kench has a couple balance point problems (both top and support)-

#1 - He's oppressively strong against most melee champions (With the exception of Trundle, Mordekaiser, and a particularly AIDS playstyle of Yorick), there are no support melee champions that can deal with Tahm Kench (imo). But only for the first 20 minutes.

#2 - He's relatively weak into ranged champions who have a bit of IQ when it comes to positioning in Lane.

These two points are pretty much in line with what should happen to a melee support going into a ranged support, and a Melee "Juggernaut" as I like to call him, going into a ranged Top lane matchup. However, as Draco points out, his damage is unchanging from levels 1-10, and then goes up at 11 and 16.

My first suggestion would be to bring his passive in line with many other 3-hit passives, in that it increases at levels 1, 6, 11, and 16, and also bring it back to it's former glory at level 16 (6%). His late game Winrate is abysmal. He has almost no use other than to spam Q slows and W on allies, and body block crowd control. Other tanks can deal a semblance of damage, or have mobility to dive and engage the back line with AOE crowd control. Tahm Kench after 30 minutes is a one trick wonder, unless you build him into a very specific play style (afk split pushing).

what this would look like:

Acquired Taste Passive Level 1/6/11/16:

  • Zero stacks: 0.375% // 0.75% // 1.125% // 1.5%
  • One stack: 0.75% // 1.5% // 2.25% // 3%
  • Two stacks: 1.125% // 2.25 % // 3.375% // 4.5%
  • Three Stacks: 1.5% // 3% // 4.5% // 6%

Level 1: Keep his early game power in line with max 1.5% (max hp) magic damage on 3 stack auto attacks Level 6: Give him a boost since he doesn't have a combat ultimate Level 11: Another power up at Level 11 (when other people get their rank 2 ultimate) to keep him in a good spot 20 minutes into the game Level 16: Another power up to bring him back to his pre-work 6% strength, which should help his abysmal late game winrate

Additionally, there should be a bigger reward for being focused enough and aggressive enough to get three stacks applied to an enemy champion.

Tongue Lash Target Range: 800 Collision Radius: 50 (up from 35, not 70 like it used to be) Cost: 50/52.5/55/57.5/60 Mana Cooldown: 6 seconds all ranks

An Acquired Taste: The target enemy champion is also stunned for 1.5/1.625/1.75/1.875/2 seconds

These changes would bring the power of the stun duration in line with other champions where the stun is a core part of their kit (Elise), while still requiring three stacks to be applied (thus the aggressive melee focus of getting stacks on one champion) and still requiring the Q to hit. It makes the Q with three stacks more rewarding, but not overpowered without counter play.

W is in a good spot. Just bug fix it for the love of god! (I'm looking at you Q+W!)

As is pointed out in this thread, many champions, either through itemization or skills, have always had or received some sort of mobility enhancement. Nautilus has Q, Maokai has Twisted Advance, Braum has his Leap. Blitzcrank has movement speed increase on W. Thresh has hook. Gragas body slam. J4 Flag and Drag.

In fact there are very few champions, tanks especially, that don't have any form of in-combat movement boosting ability. Darius is one, but darius always itemizes Black Cleaver, which, lets be real, you wouldn't put on Tahm Kench. Darius also does a LOT more damage than Tahm Kench.

As such, E could use a little bit of love, and it would make sense to tie it into the Acquired Taste Passive, just like Acquired Taste has ability altering effects on Q and W:

Thick Skin Cost: 50 mana Cooldown: 6 seconds

Passive: Tahm Kench stores a percentage of the damage he takes as Grey Health on his health bar. (60%/70%/80%/90%/100%)

NEW PASSIVE- ACQUIRED TASTE: For each stack of Acquired Taste, Tahm Kench gains a flat bonus amount of movement speed towards the enemy champion that the stacks are applied to as follows:

  • Zero stacks = zero bonus movement
  • Rank 1/2/3/4/5
  • One Stack: 2/4/6/8/10 bonus movement speed
  • Two Stacks: 4/8/12/16/20 bonus movement speed
  • Three Stacks: 6/12/18/24/30 bonus movement speed

This bonus movement speed goes on cooldown when Tahm Kench uses the Thick Skin active ability.

Total Health Restored: UNCHANGED

Here's how I would change his ultimate- He is a River Demon. He can take you on a journey For a cost

Abyssal Voyage

Target Range: 4500/5500/6500 Cost: 100 mana + SEE TEXT Cooldown: 120/110/100

Taking damage DOES NOT interrupt Abyssal Voyage. Only hard crowd control can interrupt Abyssal Voyage. (Stuns, Suppressions, anything that displaces Tahm Kench. Roots do not interrupt so long as the root comes down before Tahm finishes channeling). If Abyssal Voyage is interrupted, it is put on a 10 second reduced cooldown. Abyssal Voyage cannot be activated while Tahm Kench has a full belly.

ACTIVE: Tahm Kench channels for up to 12 seconds, highlighting the path to his intended destination to allied champions.

  • NEW: Tahm Kench can take ALL allies on the Abyssal Voyage. After a 1 second delay, the first champion can join the journey immediately. For each champion after the first, there is an additional 1 second delay.
  • E.G. - Tahm Kench begins channeling Abyssal Voyage -- HIS MANA POOL STOPS REGENERATING --. After 1 second, Amumu hops in to join the voyage. After a 1 second delay, Ahri can join. After another 1 second delay, Thresh hops in, and after a final 1 second delay, Jinx joins the journey.
  • The initial cast costs 100 mana. For each ally after the first, Tahm Kench must pay an additional 50 mana (max 250 mana). Each ally that wishes to join the journey loses 5% of their CURRENT HEALTH as a cost to join the journey. If the journey is cancelled for ANY reason, the HP cost is refunded, Tahm Kench's mana cost is NOT refunded.
  • REACTIVATE: Tahm Kench begins a channel for 1 second + 1 additional second for each ally after the first (maximum 4 second channel) which, upon completion, blinks him and his allies to the target location, arriving after a 0.5 second + 0.5 second for each ally after the first (maximum 2 second delay) delay.
Hexs Fortune9/1/2017, 3:11:20 PM8 votes

No on demand dash in league of mobility means there's room to buff

THE RlVER KlNG9/1/2017, 4:32:54 PM6 votes

agreed, he should at least be able to stack his damage on things like monsters

if they wont let him eat buffs, sure, but he should at least be able to stack the damage, which could deal with some increasing as well

SpecterVonBaren9/1/2017, 5:13:52 PM5 votes

Yeah, the change to his damage made him better pre-six and flat out worse afterwards.

The thing a lot of people don't think about is that Tahm is almost never dealing full damage to people with his autos because he needs to stack his passive and he HAS to use his W either after getting full stacks or after landing a Q stun and maybe two more autos otherwise his target is going to get away or he's going to get peeled off thanks to all the mobility and CC in the game.

It's especially damning since Tahm isn't an initiator, he has no good ways to get to someone unless they come to him but in the case of an all in in the mid and late game he can't waste time stacking on someone in a fight because he needs to protect his carry and that person can be body blocked by allies or minions or use mobility to get out of his range.

Firethorn9/1/2017, 6:55:19 PM4 votes

Unbench the kench!

I'll leave now :( TahmKench

Mayler9/1/2017, 2:59:38 PM3 votes

These suggestions make a lot of sense for Tahm in the current meta, for both Support Kench and Top Kench (jungle Kench too if youre are a Chad such as my self), Unbench the Kench.

Nebuul9/1/2017, 5:13:16 PM2 votes

Fyi, his bonus damage was 8% or 6% of bonus health. Now it is based on max health, so keep in mind that 4.5% of max health is going to be more than 6% bonus health unless you have a very large health pool.

2225 * .045 = 100 100 / .06 = 1668

So he gets a "free" 1668 equivalent bonus health with the new passive as compared to the old. Of course, this is contacted by needing to land 3 stacks for max damage. If he lands 3 stacks, his overall passive damage is cut by 1/3. More stacks landed reduces this penalty.

PapaGreg219/2/2017, 4:01:30 AM2 votes

I was petitioning hard for kench to be able to stack up his devour on buff camps a few months ago and a Rioter responded to the very popular thread saying Kench is fine in the jungle as is (I don't agree.) He claimed it would be broken if Kench could do more damage to these camps so I doubt we will get any changes.

SolarisCorvus9/2/2017, 6:43:43 AM2 votes

Im a m7 tahm kench enthusiast. I honestly think that they should just change his ult because that shit holds his entire kit back way too much. Make it that tahm channels and slowly pulls enemies into his mouth and make the ult deal decent magic dmg or just max health dmg. That way tahm can get some power back into the rest of his kit.

Draconian5659/2/2017, 3:54:11 PM2 votes

So I've seen a LOT of different responses and wanted to address each of them:

  1. The reason why the 1 second lockout exists on Tahm's W when he ults is because I'm guessing Riot developers did not want to find the actual reason why you could cancel ur ult after someone jumped in and then spit them out as damage. This was their hotfix, which is stupid, since most new Tahm players are like "WTF? EAT HIM, TAHM" and then they get flamed for not being able to save them. It's asking for internal tilt in your team.

  2. Tahm with 6% flat bonus damage was not broken at all. He starts at 2225 health at Lv18. The average game ends with 3900 health (again, this is just me), which means it's roughly 100 additional magic damage per AA before any resistance is factored in. With the current 4.5% max health bonus damage, it's 58.5 per stack. No one would let you get three stacks. So yes, 4.5% max does deal more damage, but ONLY if you manage to autoattack for stacks in the late game, which is why Tahm has such an abysmal late game: He can't stack.

If anything, convert that stacking mechanic to the full amount and leave it at 4.5% per AA/Q/W would address his abysmal and worthless late game. The number of times I've lost with scores like 10/2/10 is insane because that's how hard he falls off.

Lv1: 1.5% Lv6: 2.5% Lv11: 3.5% Lv16: 4.5%

  1. A lot of you guys are talking about how broken Tahm would be. Think of it this way. Tahm at Lv18 with no items/masteries/etc. has 2225 health based on sheer growth. Riven has 2020 at Lv18 based on sheer growth. I'm sure most of you realize that if Riven rushes BC components, she has more health than Tahm if he starts Sunfire Cape. Darius at Lv18 has 2282, which is more than Tahm just from pure statistics. Ffs, even Jax has 2028. A bruiser has more health than a tank, some of which have more health just based on sheer growth. Good job riot. Tahm was supposed to be a "tank". So if Riven and Darius can deal damage and still be allowed to exist, why shouldn't Tahm get hooked up with a bit of damage, even if he's a support, especially in the ardent censer meta where every single ardent abuser counters Kench atm?
ZT Xperimentor9/9/2017, 4:28:08 PM1 votes

I like the ideas, but doubt riot will change it since they enjoy 'X number of hit' passives.