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I'm gonna get flamed for this, but Lee Sin will become the next Elise if he's nerfed

ApplyForAGrant·3/11/2015, 6:48:17 PM·7 votes·1,408 views

The Lee is OP circlejerk is alarmingly similar to the Elise circlejerk last season that got her nerfed to the state she is today. Elise at the time had 46% win rate, same as Lee Sin's current win rate. People that cried for her nerfs had the exact reasoning as Lee today, "overloaded kit", "LC$BigPlays", "pushing out other junglers", "top tier for 2 seasons in a row" etc etc. Her win rate was disregarded because she had high pick/ban rate and difficulty. She was even referred to as Lee Sin 2.0.

When Riot complied and nerfed her Cocoon width and Rappel range, her win rate dropped to 43%, below Urgot's level. People were unconvinced that Elise will become underpowered, saying that Elise will always be strong because of her "inherently broken kit". People also said her win rate will rise as bad Elise players stop playing her. In reality, she fell out of the meta, with the 4th lowest pick rate, and same win rate at 43%. 8 months later, people are flaming Riot for the state of Elise, totally forgetting that they themselves caused this.

If Lee Sin get's nerfed in any substantial way, his win rate will be drop to the same level, and we'll see if his "inherently broken kit" will still keep him viable.

17 Comments

MrPerson103/11/2015, 6:52:22 PM5 votes

I agree to a certain extent, but on the other hand - Lee does have too much in his kit.

I'm not saying take it all away, but is it really necessary that he has 2 dashes, a shield, a slow, spell vamp AND lifesteal, true sight, a knockback and absurdly high base damage? I can't think of a single other champion that has half of that amount of utility, no matter how hard to play.

The Queen Viper3/11/2015, 7:39:57 PM3 votes

Who cares? Kill that overloaded champ with fire.

Kivolan3/11/2015, 7:43:11 PM3 votes

Good.

Sick of seeing him in 75% of my games.

Yfrappefort3/11/2015, 7:44:25 PM3 votes

I will probably get downvoted for this, but if he's about to reach Elise tier, then so be it.

I won't miss him even if he's gone for 1 or 2 seasons.

usul12023/11/2015, 7:17:56 PM1 votes

The difference is the viabilities of their kit. I'll admit, i was not playing when Elise was considered super OP, but she hasn't gotten a rework, so i'll just look at their kits.

One of the biggest complaints about lee sin is his mobility. It laughs at almost every other players in combat mobility in the game. (Kalista Riven Yasuo say hi, i know. not the topic). Elise's rappel is nice, but its a once a fight thing. twice with a post fight chase. Lee's Q, and W, and even R give him massive positioning control, something which will never go out of style.

The biggest problem with nerfing Lee though, is what do you nerf? His Q width? that wouldn't stop his powerhouse in the jungle that few other junglers can match. it'd hurt his ganks sure, but he can gep close with his W still and make that shot much easier. nerfing ranges wouldn't help for the exact same reason; they're not needed in the jungle, and he can circumvent them in ganks by using other abilities/walking up to laners like most other junglers. The other nerf option: damage. lee sin isn't used late game as a scaling ad assasin/bruiser, he relies a lot on his base damages (which is why tank-sin is fairly viable in the right setting). if you nerf those, lee sin fails to exist. there would be no reason to play him, as it would hurt his early game, and he has no late game. this differs from elise because elise has strong scaling attacks. %health damage, %AP on basic attacks, and an AS steroid all contribute to elise being able to survive a nerf at least intact. Lee is either going to be nerfed with little effect, or wrecked. I can't seem to find a middle ground in any way I try to find a nerf.

Disclaimer: I suck at lee sin. I tried him. i really did. i read the guides, i watched the vids/streams, but i sucked. I could be pretty damn wrong here, but I think like i got a feel for him by watching others play, and this is the feel I've got. If I'm wrong, tell me why.

Abyssphere3/11/2015, 7:36:20 PM1 votes

Personally I feel like Lee needs changes, as do many, but I really don't want his power level reduced because you're correct, his power level is pretty much fine right now (and the Elise nerf brigade were ridiculous at the time). It's just that a lot of his power lays in mechanics that are pretty terrible to play against.

Primarily my problem with him is how much of the decision making in a Lee Sin vs. X is placed on the Lee player. He has amazing engage due to two gapclosers and some crowd control but also has amazing disengage because of his knockback ult and his wall-jump ward hop. If Lee decides he wants a fight, it's very difficult for the enemy champion to do anything about it. Lee decides he doesn't want one? Also very difficult for the enemy champion to do anything about it.

They have to do something. I mean Morello seems to hate him and he's head of balance/champ design, no? It really seems like he's either doomed to go the way of Elise or a necessary rework in the waiting.

AHeroNamedHawke3/11/2015, 7:38:28 PM1 votes

Lee Sin will fall out of popularity if nerfed, as he currently is a tier 2 jungler at best

That doesn't mean anything of value would be lost

pleep3/11/2015, 7:10:58 PM1 votes

OP you are 100% correct, I've been saying this forever.

Take away his stats and lee sin will fall to urgot lvls of unpopularity. Why? because no one want to take the time to land skillshots to do the exact same thing other junglers (Hecarim or J4 for example) can do with the click of a button.

He already has meaningful weaknesses and counterplay, i say hes fine as is. Nerfing is never the answer

Learn 2 Swim3/11/2015, 8:18:10 PM1 votes

Its also funny that OP forgets to mention that Elise and Lee Sin were nerfed at the exact same time and Elise was gutted and Lee got a love tap that kept him #1 #2 jungler for another year.

Espy Psyche3/11/2015, 8:30:11 PM1 votes

Right now, the problem is, he's both a tank and an assassin. Pick one, change aspects of his kit (maybe not even a direct nerf) to make him one or the other, and he's balanced.

To make him a tank, gut his scaling but give him back his attack speed slow on E and buff his shield. To make him an assassin, reduce his base damages and take away his shield/sustain for more movespeed slow on E and higher ratios.

Learn 2 Swim3/11/2015, 7:47:22 PM1 votes

OP sounds like a Riot employee.

20 junglers nerfed this season, Lee isnt one of them. There were 15+ junglers that "didnt deserve to be nerfed" this season. Why is Lee always exempt from nerfs?

bad manner kid3/11/2015, 8:13:43 PM1 votes

Elise was nerfed every season because her kit was too perfect for jungling. She had an identity crisis between tank, assassin, safe jungle farmer, and being super mobile. I feel she is still *viable *just over shadowed by more popular picks.

Lee Sin has survived with nerfs that make other nerfs jealous. "Cannot shield minions" has been the most significant nerf to him in years. He has so much random utility in his kit that it's basically impossible to deal with the variety of tactics he can employ in any game. If they nerf his LS/SV sustain or Q execute damage, his kit wouldn't be over loaded.

pleep3/11/2015, 7:11:15 PM1 votes

Especially as riot is about to buff tank junglers. The lee sin circlejerk is a joke

Immortal Strife3/11/2015, 7:17:27 PM1 votes

My inclination is that the upcoming jungle changes in the next few patches will indirectly buff Lee Sin and thus he needs some hits so that he does not become oppressive. I personally do not have a problem with Lee Sin other than that he and J4 are always picked in pro play when open to do so.