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[Preseason] Itemization Issues - Support Tanks Are CDR Starved

Pyro·10/25/2016, 1:01:06 PM·7 votes·1,239 views

Hello I'm Pyro and I like writing about item systems. You can find the feedback megathread here, where I talk about all items introduced in the Preseason 7.

This thread is dedicated to a single topic - the CDR on supports. Aegis is undergoing some big changes and Locket loses its CDR.

#Changelog

Aegis and its upgrades:

item 3105 Aegis of the Legion

  • Recipe: item 1029 Cloth Armor + item 1033 Null-Magic Mantle + 350 g (1100 g total, down from 1500)
  • +30 Armor, +30 Magic Resist
  • Health removed
  • Aura removed

item 3190 Locket of the Iron Solari

  • item 3105 Aegis of the Legion + item 1033 Null-Magic Mantle + 650 g (2200 g total, down from 2500)
  • +30 Armor, +60 Magic Resist
  • Active: 90 - 345 shield for 2 seconds >> 70 - 665 shield that decays over 2.5 seconds
  • Legion aura removed

item 3060 Banner of Command

  • Recipe: item 3105 Aegis of the Legion + item 3024 Glacial Shroud + 100 g (2200 g total)
  • +60 Armor, +30 Magic Resist, +400 Mana, +10% Cooldown Reduction
  • No longer grants Ability Power
  • Active Unchanged
  • Legion aura removed

GP10:

item 3401 Face of the Mountain

  • Active: Now shields your ally and yourself upon cast. Self-casting will now target the nearest most wounded ally, similar to Heal.

item 2303 Eye of the Equinox

  • HP Regen: 100% >> 200%

item 2302 Eye of the Oasis

  • Combine Cost: 550 g >> 250 g (1900 g total, down from 2200)

item 3069 Talisman of Ascension

  • Combine Cost: 450 g >> 350 g (2400 g total, down from 2500)

Other supportank items:

item 3110 Frozen Heart

  • Combine Cost: 800 g >> 700 g (2700 g total, down from 2800)

http://i.imgur.com/aKwfU8i.jpg Knight's Vow (NEW ITEM)

  • Recipe: item 3801 Crystalline Bracer + item 3801 Crystalline Bracer + item 1029 Cloth Armor + 800 g (2400 g total)
  • +400 Health, +100% health regen, +20 armor
  • Active: Designate an ally as your partner. (90 second cooldown)
  • Passive: If your partner is nearby, gain +40 armor, and +15% movement speed while moving towards them. You heal for 12% of the damage they deal to enemy champions and redirect 12% of the damage they take to you. This effect is halved for ranged champions.

#Now, what's the problem?

Supports are gold starved. Cost reductions across the board are much welcome, but in most games - pro games, especially - they will not build as many items as their teammates. This makes the selection of "rushed" core items that more crucial.

A typical supportank build in the season 7 will go as follows:

  • FotM + Ruby Sightstone / Eye of the Equinox
  • Mobis/Tabi/Treads
  • Knight's Vow
  • Locket

That is four/five items, worth 8000-9000g. If you're a Warden like Braum, Thresh, Alistar, Taric or Tahm Kench , then Knight's Vow and Locket are a no-brainer, unless you're up against a full AP/full AD team. In general a good Warden will build the team-protecting items over selfish tankiness.

And that's where the problem lies: That "core Warden build" has zero CDR, now that Locket has lost it. If you go for FotM over the eyestone you get 10% CDR and that's it.

Compare with Enchanters, who cannot go Athene's and Ionians without every other item after that wasting its CDR stat.

#Why Wardens need CDR

Exact same reason as with enchanters: because it's their main source of power scaling. They won't build AP, they won't be as tanky as a toplaner/jungler with more gold to spend - their power comes from shields and CC that is more often available when you get CDR for it.

"But they can go for CDR instead of Knight's Vow"

If Knight's Vow is as good as I believe it is, everyone will feel forced to buy it. CDR doesn't mean much if your carry gets killed before your second round of spells is up. Protecting your carry will always be the point of supportanks, and the only tank items granting CDR now are selfish-tank items like Warmog's, Spirit Visage and Iceborn Gauntlet. Not really what you'd call support items.

"But they can go for Frozen Heart!"

Sure they can, but it's an expensive item, costing much more than support gear usually does, and it's not something you can rely on in your core build - it doesn't work in skirmishes against bursty champions, and it doesn't do jack shit against AP. FH is more of a "selfish" tanky item than a "supportive" one, even though it does indeed help out a ton in the lategame in reducing damage from AA-reliant champions.

#What to do, then?

It's simple: We kill the Batman give Wardens CDR. Note how with the change to Locket, no support item other than FotM builds out of Kindlegem anymore. Possible candidates include:

  • item 2303 Eye of the Equinox - the other eyestones grant CDR even though enchanters often end up with excess of it, tanks are starved for it and yet their eyestone has none
  • item 2045 Ruby Sightstone - it could build out of Kindlegem. That, however, would require an addition of another upgrade, let's call it Sapphire Sightstone, for supports who tend to overload their CDR. Sapphire Sightstone should convert extra CDR into either AP or item cooldown reduction.
  • Knight's Vow - one of the Crystalline Bracers could change into a Kindlegem, or the Cloth Armor could get replaced with Glacial Shroud. Remove the other Bracer and lower the Health to 300 if the item gets abused in the toplane.
  • item 3056 Ohmwrecker - this item already has CDR, now just make it not suck and supports are gonna eat that up. Bump the CDR to 20% and allow the active to empower allied turrets - by adding splash damage and/or making the tower immune. Zz'Rot is used because it has both offensive and defensive purposes, Ohmwrecker could use that treatment as well.
  • item 3800 Righteous Glory - it's more of a Vanguard type of item, but these tanks could use a Kindlegem here as well. If we're afraid of toplane Maokai abusing it, consider scaling the item's active with the number of teammates in vicinity (TAKE- MY- E-NER-GY!).

Another solution would be rethinking Warden items in general. Perhaps a supportank-specific component, like item 3114 Forbidden Idol is to enchanters? Both Aegis and Crystalline Bracer seem fit for that, though we wouldn't want another Legion aura. Consider stuff like lowering the cost of Aegis and having part of its armor rating work only when an ally is nearby. Preserves the "Legion" thematic and makes sure the item is used best on supports.

#Questions

  • Are support tanks supposed to choose between support items and CDR?
  • Should we give support tanks more CDR?
  • If yes - where?
  • Is Riot even going to look at Ohmwrecker this season or will it remain forgotten until they decide to delete it?

11 Comments

DeathBurst10/25/2016, 1:35:37 PM3 votes

I mostly agree.

  1. I think you're slightly exaggerating the problem, though. Lucidity Boots is still a decent pick-up if you really need CDR, and there is not enough CDR in the core build, but pretty much all luxury items have CDR on it (Zeke, Banner, Frozen, Spirit, ...).
  2. CDR on Equinox seems like a no brainer, don't know why it's not already the case. Righteous Glory seems like a good fit, too.
  3. Ohmwrecker, well, I like the idea, but what's preventing a Toplaner from abusing it, once it's a decent pick-up?
  4. Knight's Vow, I'm more concerned about it becoming the new Aegis than about it being abused in Toplane. If you add CDR to that, you'll REALLY feel forced to buy it, and you've just replaced one problem with a new one.
  5. A Tank-ports specific components, that's a nice idea, but I would have thought Glacial Shroud more than the ones you mentioned. It's already in Zeke, Banner, and Frozen Heart ---which all have a "supportive vibe" even if they are not viable rush items for a Tank-support--- and even though I contradict my own point 4), it "feels" natural in the recipe for Knight's Vow. On the other hand, if you change Aegis and/or Bracer to have CDR, you have to rework all the items which already include them.

P.S.: don't want to detract from the main topic, but I'm a bit sad to see Enchantresses (who can sometimes build more selfish damage items than Tanks) lose Banner of Command, and I'm a bit worried that they'll still feel forced to build Solari just for the active even if they don't want the stats anymore. What do you think?

Spoofghoul10/25/2016, 3:39:51 PM1 votes

i think some selfish tank items synergize well with knights vow like the warmogs you mentioned, gives the needed regen to reocver after tanking your carries damage as well as a good chunk of hp to do so

then there is the option to take cdr from runes too

but yes the cdr options are a bit limited.

I like your ohmwrecker idea perhaps it could regen turrets too or something but instead gives a shield to them if they are in combat

The Yetii Rider10/25/2016, 3:41:43 PM1 votes

In the last thread complaining about this I explained that the new Mikael's Crucible will be excellent on tanks.

A) It gives CDR, which is in short supply.

B) It gives MR and health regen.

C) The shield power granted improves Courage of the Colossus from 190 + 35% of your max health to 228 + 42% of your max health.

D) The shield power improves Locket Active from 3325 to 3990.

E) The shield and healing power improves Thresh's Dark Passage, Alistar's Triumphant Roar, Blitzcrank's Mana Barrier, Tahm Kench's Thick Skin, Taric's Imbue and Bastion.

That's another 10% for you. Plus Banner of Command if you like.

N Pelosi10/25/2016, 3:44:35 PM1 votes

Options exist for CDR. If you think those options aren't worth taking, then you are making the judgement that the cdr isn't worth it.

Varnoc10/25/2016, 11:05:04 PM1 votes

I think Tank Supports may need a building block of their own to play with, much like Enchanters have in item 3114 (Though I wish the Regen was a little higher or something on it, because the combine cost is pretty absurd right now.)

I think item 3801 could fit the bill pretty nicely if you slapped some CDR onto it. Obviously, the cost would need to increase to compensate, and a +200g increase would put it at 850g total, which is on par with item 3114 's cost (though arguably providing a better stat spread IMO).

The problem with this is that it becomes highly efficent with only a 200g increase to price, and it invalidates item 3067 nearly completely, as everything that it builds into (with the exception of item 3152 after the Pre-Season changes, though it sounds like a little price increase wouldn't hurt it really) already has Health Regeneration on it anyway.

AirKingNeo10/26/2016, 12:35:23 AM1 votes

This season, "Supports have too much CDR"

Now "Supports have too little CDR"

There's a reason tanks aren't supposed to have a lot of CDR. REMEMBER THE TANK META? CDR was a major reason for that. Not saying supports need none, but 30% or even 20 average.