When will we see another "simple" champion?

several lbs lean·5/30/2015, 9:49:36 PM·100 votes·6,033 views

Title says it all folks.

Many, if not all of the recent champs released have been very complicated. I'm all for complexity in a game, but why does everything have to have a %hp, dash, reset, or stacking mechanic? Many champions lately have been called OP, or when the numbers are tweaked slightly, UP.

Riot even says themselves that many new champions are hard to balance. Why is that? Because every ability has a passive, or an additional function. No shit a champion will be hard to balance when each ability has three different ratios to worry about.

When will we see another Annie? Or another Garen? Complexity does not always guarantee a fun to play champion and more often than not, riot fucks up with balancing (for good reason)

TLDR When will we see another simple champion?

110 Comments

Silents4295/31/2015, 2:18:26 AM21 votes

A simple champion is harder to balance and keep relevant.

I don't think we need another Ekko right now, but a nice example of simple is Braum or Vel Koz

SEKAI5/31/2015, 12:39:44 PM9 votes

Or they could just stop releasing champs for a year or 2 and devote this time into updating the outdated designs instead of simply making new champs to replace them.

This makes the game easier to balance and gives the game a better direction, why not do it?

Is selling new shining champs that important to you Riot?

On the topic of overloaded designs, Riot should just stop stuffing everything they can think of into 4 buttons and hope it all works out, no it won't. Because that way you either need to nerf the champs so hard he/she becomes completely irrelevant to the point he/she might as well not exist, or he/she is so OP everyone just plays them.

This game isn't about 1v1, there is no point getting all frenzy over "outplaying" because Outplay should be a frigging team effort and NOT an individual stunt show. This game is a team game remember?

Nowadays the champs' kits are so overloaded with unnecessary stats and pages of descriptions you wonder what type of game they're actually trying to make. If they are doing a Diablo ARPG, the crazy descriptions certainly would make people drool, if they're making a Fighting game, the emphasis on "mechanics" and flashiness would certainly get people excited. But this is a MOBA/ARTS we're talking about here, what are you doing?

If all you want is endless and pointless actions about nothing, then please reconsider why we even have creeps, gold, items, nexus, turrets, buffs, other objectives or why we are even using this genre.

Be consistent Riot.

The biggest flaw to overloaded kit design is that there is simply no clear weakness and strength as everyone is behaving exactly the same. Where is the fun in that? Where is the point in that?

Kits should be designed with counterplays in mind, and by that I mean pre-defined weakness, and not just relying solely on the enemy players' mechanical faults, that's capitalising, not counterplaying.

RoyaiChaos5/31/2015, 2:48:29 AM7 votes

Wut, simple champions are harder to balance. See Ryze, Annie, Garen.

EternalDarknez5/31/2015, 1:23:29 AM6 votes

riot doesnt care how complex it is, they care about what they look like in LC$ BIGPLAY$

thats why there hasnt been any new "simple" champs and all the old ones are turning into skillshot based champs

its all about the money -riot since 2013

Akesgeroth5/30/2015, 10:06:56 PM6 votes

I though you were going to say something interesting but you're so wrong it boggles my mind. It's not the number of ratios or the kind of damage or whatever, it's the mechanics themselves. Let's take Bard's E as an example. You can nerf the cooldown, nerf the mana cost, nerf the travel time, but it'll always be a tunnel through a wall which anyone can cross. If this specific mechanic is too strong, then the champion can't be balanced.

The biggest issue IMHO is that Riot seems to think everything needs a counter when that's not true. Hell, I think I'll make a thread about that.

Worst Mid Ever5/31/2015, 3:48:37 AM5 votes

Never hopefully, you can't balance a simple champion properly because they run off the numbers, when you have something strong like Ryze in Season 3 or Annie in her current state you can't outplay them because their damage is unavoidable and even if you hit all your skillshots they still win every trade, and when they are in a weak state they can't do anything because they have no mobility to make plays, if you want to play a game where 2 people just hit eachother until one dies because of superior items/stats I would suggest Runescape PvP.

LaserDeathBlade5/31/2015, 2:08:18 AM5 votes

I think the Dev team needs to spend more time looking at Champs before releasing shit like Ekko

It's possible to have a 'simple' champion that is fun to play with a lot of outplay potential on both sides, ex: Lux /Varus /Shen / Zac.

Adding more random shit into a champ's kit =/= more fun and interactive champion, it usually just means OP

Slamurai Jack5/31/2015, 2:54:29 AM5 votes

The more complex a champion is, the more things you can adjust in an attempt to balance them. It may take quite a while to find the sweet spot, but it's doable. Simpler champions tend to be either OP or underwhelming based solely on their numbers (Old Ryze, Xin Zhao, Taric, Kayle, Old Sion).

SexyTaylorSwift5/31/2015, 3:58:40 AM4 votes

I don't think we will see many. Why? Because they make money if they release a champ that is stupid OP.

flibitydoo5/31/2015, 1:07:08 AM4 votes

Riot keeps releasing generalist champions that are overloaded and do everything because of champion maining and mastery (not talking about the 5 level ranking system here). MANY players have taken it upon themselves to play exclusively a single champion, and the issue with a lot of the older champions is that hard countering exists due to the lack of flexibility in their kits.

For example if you main Rammus Jungle, then everytime the enemy picks Shaco or Lee sin or Elise in the jungle, you are probably going to have a bad game.

By making champions generalists who can do everything and beat anyone with enough practice, you make a champion that can be picked into any comp and be worth playing until one has reached the skill ceiling of that champion. Gnar for example can beat pretty much everyone in lane, but the complexity of his kit requires the player learn everything about him in order to do so.

Coccyx4205/31/2015, 9:59:51 AM4 votes

How about you guys try creating a new "simple" champion, that doesn't copy the ability of all other 123 some champs where players wont judge you for "copy pasting everything, so lazy rito"

The Simple champs got used up already

Narasimha5/31/2015, 3:12:52 AM4 votes

I think it's been said, but it needs to be emphasized. The simpler a champion is, the more problematic they actually end up being. Just look at Kassadin, Ryze, or even Annie. Not to mention others that have been in and out like Darius, Taric, or Singed.

KenjiChan2515/31/2015, 4:29:44 AM4 votes

Long answer: What Riot's concern right now is spectacle. Mobility, flashy abilities, powerful passives are what attracts people into the game, gets them to open their wallets, and make it all look extremely good. Competitive play which gets the most attention favors champs that are readily adaptable and can turn the tide with complicated big plays. Simple champs are pretty much good for one role, aren't flashy, and aren't that adaptable, and hence won't be appealing to Riot from a marketing standpoint. Not to mention advances in technology has them push out more and more complicated kits to stretch what they can do on top of everything else.

Short answer: #LCSBIGPLAYS + Popularity + Technology = No Simple Champs.

AnonymousEnigma5/31/2015, 2:50:13 AM3 votes

Generally, complexity is better... champions have 4-6 abilities (jayce nidalee), so imo complexity even if it gives just bit more depth is good I know this is gonna downvotes, but it's just my opinion

Aboylova925/31/2015, 11:16:16 AM3 votes

Vel is a perfect example of a well designed champion. Clear strengths and weaknesses. Pretty much consistantly strong throughout the different metas. Can be played Mid or Support pretty much equally if the person is good with them. And not too complicated. He has what one passive? Not the Yasuo with who knows how many, or Ekko with again, just too many.

Hyrum Graff5/31/2015, 2:22:31 PM3 votes

I don't disagree with you but Annie and Garen, because of their binary play patterns, are extremely hard to balance -- either their combo works and they shit on everybody, or it doesn't work and they get shat on.

Very Hard Engage5/30/2015, 9:51:48 PM3 votes

they aren't "fun" or get people to go out and spend 10$ on a riot card to buy their NEW 7800champ.

BLiP Venator5/31/2015, 8:27:22 AM2 votes

If this happens, everyone will say things like: "That's just a copy of this champ.." or "This game is so dumb, why isn't there more skill involved in champs"

FedAsFuk5/31/2015, 12:37:03 AM2 votes

I would actually say Braum on release was simple, as was Kalista, yes they needed to be explored to taken to their potential but their kits are simple and straight forward, fairly easy for anyone to use, Kalista took maybe 2 games to get used to the jumping mehcanic. Rek'Sai same story, very simple JG champ, lane Rek'Sai I can't say because I didn't play so it may have been more difficult. Jinx and Lucian were also released back to back and are both very simple champs, I was not playing LoL on release so I cannot say if they were hard at release.

Borbland5/31/2015, 9:54:04 AM2 votes

I personally like complex champions, the only problem with them is that Riot loves to add one or more mobility spells for them, so they become broken and either completly useless or dominating.

Ekko for example has a very complex kit, but luckily, it's not broken, he's a bit too strong right now, but nothing that cannot be fixed by simple number tweaking.

Why is Ekko healthy ? He has only one mobility spell (Even if its really annoying) and the rest of his spells needs proper targeting, positionning, and the enemy to postionnate wrong (Q, W and R). That gives him alot of counterplay. Riven on the other side is clamed broken, because too many mobility and powerful shield when AD, making counterplaying hard because we dont have any spell countering mobility well, and there is few you can do.

Same for LB, since she's point n' click, she care less about her or enemy's postionning and either burst hard, or fail to burst, making her pretty much binary and either useful of complete bs. Tha is a broken gameplay. Same goes for Zed, Katarina and most other assassins, since they are all point and click assassins (Zed's Q doesnt really count as a skillshot for me, when you ult its easy to land it)

Back to the topic, simple champions can also be toxic, Annie, Kayle and old Ryze where considered broken before, mostly because of their point and click abilites, Kayle was dominating, now you barely see her anymore cause of ehr nerf, Annie is dominating botlane right now, and Ryze got a rework.

And it depends what you maen with simple champion. A champion that is easy for begginers ? Point and click are easy for them because skillshots are harder to hit, but they are pretty much binary. A champion with a skill without any additionnal passive on it (Like Vel'Koz) ? They may be simple in form, but they can be hard to play (Vel'Koz isnt too easy to play), old Cassiopeia was considered pretty hard to play while her kit was fairly simple (Now she's fairly uninteressting).

Volt Cruelerz5/31/2015, 2:27:20 PM2 votes

I think you misunderstand how balancing works. Complex champions have far more, as Riot would say, "levers to pull" than simple ones as there's a million things you can change without fundamentally altering the champion. Compare that to, say, Annie who's been OP for who knows how long and there's no real way to nerf her because she either stuns you and kills you before the stun wears off or she dies herself. Fixing her would require fundamentally changing her somehow which is a lot of effort. It's the same with other simple champions. They're either great or terrible. Warwick during preseason comes to mind in particular.

Yes, it's hard to get complex champions right on release, but they're healthier in the long run since it's possible to nerf them without breaking their identity.

Kanzler6/1/2015, 4:39:17 PM1 votes

Hopefully never. 1 trick ponies are not fun to play as or against. For example: annie. Her strategy every fight, every game, is to land a stun charged tibbers on as many people as possible. Each of the newer champs have kits that require decisions with significant trade-offs. Example: Kalista. Do i rend now to get the slow so i can get in more auto attacks before they get to the safety of a tower or do i go for the execute but take the risk of the fight being turned under a tower.

Or another example since the forums are filled with the tears crying for ekko nerfs. Ekko has to choose whether to use his ult for damage or survival. That is a pretty big decision that offers far more interesting potential to the game.

Guy Fox Teemo5/31/2015, 7:23:12 PM1 votes

Simple champions are more difficult to balance, because all they are is , this ability does X damage, This ability gives you a slow for X percent, this ability, gives you an AOE damage spell for X damage, and this ability does X true damage. Thats preety much how a simple champion works, all they're abilitys do on thing an one thing only, its either "TONS OF DAMAGE" or medicore damage, which doesn't feel rewarding, and you have no options for upping that damage since they are simple champions, and you can't make plays with simple champions, and if you try you wont be rewarded for any of your effort since all they're ability are just based off of that 1 X.

Troy2426215/31/2015, 9:16:12 PM1 votes

As soon as people stop defending champions like Yasuo, Kalista and Ekko. For every complaint about them I see, I see people heralding them as excellent. It gives me a headache to see.

JöJö6/1/2015, 1:17:11 AM1 votes

We had a simple champ recently

Taricrageous6/1/2015, 2:04:22 AM1 votes

I thought the same thing the other day and even disgussed it with my friend and he agreed. It's nice to see other people think like this, too.

FistOfSharkiesha6/1/2015, 4:32:05 AM1 votes

IMO Velkoz was the last healthy champion. In fact Vel'Koz may be the only champion in the game that has never been nerfed, buffed, or reworked in some way, he was perfect from the start.

Kiimahrii6/1/2015, 2:19:54 PM1 votes

You can't even argue about ideas, Riot is a huge company and they have a section for new champion ideas in every freaking language, every day are posted champion and skill ideas that do not get even scrolled over. A bit sad.

BluePolarizer5/31/2015, 10:00:59 AM1 votes

Some people think that simple champs are harder to balance. Empirical evidence shows that's not the case: most of the mechanically and strategically complex champs (Yasuo, Elise) have either gotten their numbers trashcanned or are pick/ban (Thresh, Nidalee, Gnar) because it turns out that there's no way to balance the inherent strength present in their kits. You can say, sure, there's more levers to pull, but it turns out that either 90% of those levers don't actually do anything, or that unless you delete the champ, they're unbalancable.

Even if Thresh did zero damage he'd still be a significant threat.

Meanwhile, simpler champs like Garen, Annie, Irelia, etc. are easy to fix because all you need to do is change numbers in a reasonable area. Changing numbers conservatively doesn't do shit to Yasuo, Elise, Thresh, Nidalee or Gnar; they're either OP or trashcanned.