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What if Thornmail healed the user based on physical damage taken...

Jasiwel·5/30/2017, 2:55:12 AM·1 votes·374 views

Rather than inflicting Grievous Wounds to the attacker? In conjunction with the item's Damage Reflect, it sounds weird, but we've all kind of ran around in this circle of "Grievous Wounds can make balance difficult" and "Grievous Wounds with Damage Reflect could depreciate interactions". Riot just removed the Thornmail w/Grievous Wounds Changes on the PBE, before 7.11, as well. While it could potentially return (as all PBE listings can), we can pretty much gleam that Riot is still on the fence about how to approach improving this item; Riot Axes even stated they are mostly experimenting at this point. It needs to accomplish a high Armor fantasy for tanks, as well as punish DPS for arrogantly focusing them, but also needs to feel healthy to play against as DPS classes.

The core issue that Thornmail has for many is that it is ultimately burned through by a combination of Crit/Lifesteal/DPS and Armor Ignore; The time when Thornmail should feel the strongest (mid-late game), is actually the same time most AD Carries (be it Skirmishers/Marksmen) have the equipment to tear through it. At present it is a niche item on a few champions (like Rammus), or a shock item built early to crush a losing team. There is also the necessity for HP as a Tank or Fighter, and raw Armor (even with the damage reflect) is no comparison to item 3742 or item 3143. Heck, even Frozen Heart (Armor/Mana + 20% CDR) can be viewed as superior due to its utility and debilitating Aura on enemy DPS.

So where am I going with "Heal the user based on physical damage taken?" Generally speaking, it's not only to allow the Tank some capacity to keep doing what they do best (persist in fights and frontline for their team), but it opens up Thornmail to some possible synergy with other items and Masteries beyond just "armor stacking". For example, Spirit Visage and Runic Shield particularly come to mind here. Simultaneously, it also does not excessively punish the other end by depreciating one of their primary means of counteracting Damage Reflect in the first place. They will already have to buy Lifesteal to counteract Thornmail, so I hope it's easy to see where some issues could arise.

There is also the difference between "Raw HP" and "Calculated HP". "Raw HP" is the bonus HP given by items and passives, while "Calculated HP" is generated HP through healing and shields. Raw HP can inflate ratios and directly affect other passives/abilities, while Calculated HP indirectly changes the flow of fights and adds longevity to a unit without directly inflating the HP bar. Given a historic and intentional main trait of Thornmail is to exclude bonus HP, I think this particular solution could work in tandem with that tradition.

So what are some thoughts here? Is it over the top, or could it have merit?

9 Comments

LadyRenly5/30/2017, 3:06:42 AM1 votes

no thanks, dont want to see people like mundo use that. besides, itd make grievous wounds even more devastating.

CannonLordFreed5/30/2017, 3:11:37 AM1 votes

Galio can be heard crying in the distance.

The Whamboozler5/30/2017, 3:25:50 AM1 votes

Thornmail is just poorly designed. It has nothing on it but armor, making it a poor rush item. It hurts more based on how much damage the ENEMY does to you, implying you should buy it if an AD champ you're facing is fed, but if that's the case it's likely worthless against them due to them being ahead and having lifesteal to negate the thornmail effect. It's really a poor item that needs a rework into something more useful.

How about it it became some kind of Armor/Health item that did splash damage around the person being struck every time they were injured? The damage could scale based on how much damage was done, of course... so if your adc is weak he won't hurt your team much, but a fed ADC shooting a tank with Thornmail would be melting his own front line in the process... or himself if the tank is right up on him. It would be a nifty teamfighting item, and make attacking the tank kill the other people who are near said tank. I could see Thornmail stacking well with the poor, nerfed sunfire if that was the case, but if you just avoid focusing the tank it wouldn't be terribly powerful, giving it a little counterplay.

The only down side is it would be pretty useless against ranged champs unless the AoE on that splash was HUGE... but then, it's pretty shit against adc's now too, so... I guess we could slap Grievous wounds on it too for lulz if it needs a buff.