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Maybe the issue is Riot's ideology on tanks?

Hellen Keller·3/5/2016, 4:19:39 AM·5 votes·952 views

THIS IS ONLY A SUGGESTION AND I COULD BE ENTIRELY WRONG - I AM NOT GOOD AT LEAGUE AND HAVE NOT PLAYED FOR LONG

Recently tank-assassins have been the meta, and like everything else, meta changes. But perhaps this is a little too far. Master Yi is building tank items past devourer and guinsoo's, and can still 1v5 if done well. My friends asked me why I think this build works, as "it makes no sense" to him. Its really simple - items give both tank and damage stats. (It would appear that tank items are also a lot more potent than damage items, but I haven't put much thought into that.) My personal thought pre-League was that tanks should deal very little damage but be able to take an ass-whooping. In league, this simply isn't the case. A Garen can build (excluding Black Cleaver, which is an example of tank + damage) full tank and still do massive amounts of damage. In my own opinion, I feel like there should be a much more solid line between tanks, juggernauts, and carries. Currently, Juggernauts do as much or more damage than carries, and are just as (if not more) tanky than dedicated tanks.

I don't know how to fix this other than separate damage and tank items entirely, but this is just my thought - perhaps guinsoo's and devourer aren't the issues, but tank-damage is? Again, this is just my opinion. I'd love to know what you all think. Thanks for reading.

23 Comments

Kyrrion3/5/2016, 5:48:50 AM9 votes

The first issue here is that you think tank=tanky. That is not the case. But the thing is, you don't really see Garen running away that much with games as compared to Yi (let alone at high ELO's. Seriously, Garen is entirely invalidated by a support - ANY support).

The second issue isn't that Yi is building as a standard tanky fighter and being successful, but rather he (and along with most other champions who are supposed to buy crit items) are able to forgo crit entirely due to the power of other items (Rageblade/Sterak's are quick examples). Fiora is another example, but is able to abuse Juggernaut items since her scaling is entirely reliant on AD as opposed to getting in autos for crits - a stat Juggernauts are supposed to rely on to deal damage as well.

The reason all of this is happening is because Riot is changing their views on game design and balance - the Juggernaut update was an indicator of this and the Marksmen update really cemented it in (which was about the time the game went downhill - opinion). Why Riot felt they needed to update Marksmen so drastically, when they have already been warping the META around themselves for YEARS is beyond me. They literally did not need to have power added to them.

More powerful marksmen lead to assassins. Commonplace assassins leads to tanks. Since Marksmen are a necessity to succeed in this game (you're joking yourself if you want to argue otherwise) and their recent updates allowed a select number of them to benefit from Juggernaut items, we're now at a point where traditionally squishy champs are tankier than they should be while still outputting enough damage to sink an enemy team. And again, it's not limited to just Marksmen as evident by Master Yi and Fiora.

67chrome3/5/2016, 8:47:55 AM4 votes

Recently tank-assassins have been the meta

I'm not sure I'd say tanky assassins are the meta. Certain assassins just find themselves in situations where building bruiser offers a greater risk/reward dynamic. Irelia was originally released as an assassin BTW, so "tanky assassins" isn't exactly a new thing.

It would appear that tank items are also a lot more potent than damage items, but I haven't put much thought into that.

Tank items being more cost-effective than damage really depends on the situation, but generally speaking: HP is a lot cheaper than AD/AP, but AD/AP have much better multipliers for a strong end-game, and AD/AP allow you to farm much more effeciently so you have gold to invest in stats.

My personal thought pre-League was that tanks should deal very little damage but be able to take an ass-whooping. In league, this simply isn't the case.

This is really dependant on the game though.

In a game like FInal Fantasy, Earthbound, or Pokemon it makes sense that a tank is going to hit for peanuts where a glass-cannon is going to do tons of damage.

However: LoL isn't a turn-based game. Range and mobility are 2 very real, extreemly powerful means champions have to survive long enough to do their job.

The community generally agrees that mobility > defense.

Looking at Marksman being 100% required and champions like Yasou/Fiora being incapable of fullfilling the same niche, it's also worth considering range is an extreemly powerful stat to have.

Which means in LoL: champions can survive long enough to do their job through tankyness, mobility, and/or range.

As such: champions with no/extreemly limited range and mobility like Garen doing tons of damage isn't broken.

I feel like there should be a much more solid line between tanks, juggernauts, and carries.

LoL has over 100 champions, and some of them are like Kayle, Nidalee, and Urgot. You're not going to have solid lines between archetypes, there's a lot of blending and cross-over power with cousin archetypes.

Currently, Juggernauts do as much or more damage than carries, and are just as (if not more) tanky than dedicated tanks.

Juggernauts are tanky DPS, tanks are tanky CC.

The difference between the 2 isn't their level of tankyness, it's what they're trying to accomplish outside of being tanky.

I don't know how to fix this other than separate damage and tank items entirely, but this is just my thought - perhaps guinsoo's and devourer aren't the issues, but tank-damage is?

In regards to tanky assassins: main issue is that assassins are inherently risky to play, and with Riot's persuit of counterplay: many have such huge telegraphs and work-around they're risk/reward dynamic heavily favors just playing them as a mediocre fighter rather than a terrible assassin.

In regards to Juggernauts and fighters doing damage: Those are tanky DPS archetypes, you're Barbarian from Diablo or Dungeons and Dragons. They're Damage and kill-heavy rolls just like assassins, marksman, and mages: they just rely on defense to survive long enough to do their job rather than range or speed.

Khell DarkWolf3/5/2016, 8:07:30 AM3 votes

See, here is the problem. incoming wall of text

Early game, anyone classified as a tank traditionally has bad clear times [Jungle] or struggles in lane when they don't have the items to cement their position role for the later mid/late game.

Because of the way the season 6 masteries work with their being more damage thrown around and the missing [and nerfed] tank masteries from the past seasons of extra various damage reduction and +percentage% HP and flat resists that helped curb tank's ease into getting armor/MR/HP items to do their job.

To counter-act this issue, what tanks/bruisers/fighters [whatever] are doing now is buying damage early to start a snowball lead, to GET the surplus gold for their tank stats in items later. Because of the way of how the game pacing is going and the fact that if tanks don't farm gold quick enough they won't get the stats they need to do their job in the game later.

Moving on to the Assassins becoming tanks issue:

Since _tanks _ usually have enough innate beefy stat numbers which enforce synergy with tanky items out the door but suffer in damage [hence why some tanks now buy damage early to plug their weakness]. The next phase is now you're seeing Champions with high enough damage out the get go that synergize with damage items but lack the ability to survive long enough to deal sustain long periods of damage.

What are they going to do to counter-act this?

They start building beefy offensive [Almost like an offensive tank].

Lets define a tank from a PvE game:

Able to pull hate/threat away from damage dealers
Able to withstand damage for longer periods of time to allow damage dealers to kill the target
OR, Mitigate enough damage to let damage dealers do their job in killing the target

Since League is PvP, what are your options?

Build Tanky
Build Damage
Have Crowd Control

The answer here is this:

If you want to be a tank, you have to become a threat
To become a threat, you must bring something that forces the enemy to focus you and not your teammates
To survive focus, you must be able to mitigate damage

True Tanks in today's season have to be able to mitigate damage by either:

Mitigation through shields
Resist modification steroids
Damage reduction
or Sustain mitigation

These are just EXAMPLES, but play any OTHER tank and these and check the damage taken stats and look at who took the most when compared to deaths during that current game.

You might find that some sustainers [namely the ADC] took more damage then the tanks.

So what did we see recently?

Tank Akali Akali , Yi MasterYi , Fiora Fiora

Technically, they are building akin to fighters.

Are they fulfilling the 3 questions of becoming a threat?

Unfortunately, I would say **yes they are indeed **

Variks the Loyal3/5/2016, 5:02:56 AM3 votes

Juggernauts are supposed to do carry level damage while being tanky. Their counterplay is that they're very slow and kitable, unlike true tanks who often have instant gap closers, or catch-out moves (Think Malphite and Sion's ults, or Nautilus' Dredge Line).

Juggernauts are rarely a problem, nowadays. Even complaints about Darius have died down once people learned how to fight Juggernauts - With kiting and disengage. Pit a Juggernaut against a Janna or an Ashe or any Tank with high peel and CC, and they will have a hard time.

The problem is, yes, with the items, but the items are currently fulfilling roles they were not meant to. Take item 3053 for example. Sterak's Gage, in Riot's words, were meant specifically for Juggernauts and other tanky Fighters who found themselves becoming prey to ambient AoE damage during teamfights. Even if they weren't the focused target, they would often take a log of ambient damage from various sources like AoE Mage abilities, auras like Sunfire Cape, and others, and would die too quickly before reaching their targets. This is because they're very slow. Sterak's was a way for Juggernauts to survive the ambient damage, and have a chance at the backline, while also emphasizing them as targets to be prioritized by increasing the user's size.

Other classes, namely Marksman and other Carries, have taken Sterak's and used it in a way counter to it's purpose. It's being used as an anti-burst tool, and Riot is understandably hesitant to nerf this because they don't want to be tyrannical with the players. If players figure out a neat build in an unexpected place, and it works, they want that to be rewarded (Think Blue Ezreal or Tank Jungle Elise). If it continues to be a problem, however, they will likely have to shift it into the Juggernaut's direction. They recently attempted this by nerfing the health on Sterak's Gage, but I personally don't think it'll help much. Making it melee only may be the only answer.

So when you look at Bruiser-Assassin Yi, remember - This wasn't Riot's intention. But they're treading on thin ice and need to be careful where they swing their nerfbat, and where they distribute buffs.

EcchiOtakuTM3/5/2016, 7:02:31 AM2 votes

Bruisers are not tanks by any mean.

mogonk3/5/2016, 11:48:30 PM1 votes

I said it to the white supremacists and I'll say it to you:

Hatred is not an ideology.

Kettelcorn3/5/2016, 5:41:29 AM1 votes

IMO champs with very high armor and AD late game such as Garen, Darius, and Nasus are very easy to kite as an ADC, especially if your support knows how to peel well. Also, they lack when it comes to disengage, disruption, and other important attributes that a tank needs. That is why you rarely see any of them in higher level play because they are potentially useless against a well coordinated team. Same with Master Yi, as really all you need is hard CC and attack speed reduction and its gg. I think the juggernauts are pretty well balanced right now, unlike a few months ago...

xl Kirito lx3/5/2016, 4:37:02 AM1 votes

Black cleaver itself is a problem, to the point where soloq top lane is won/lost by cleaver tanks, able to stat check most champion. Tank items in general are too strong. The fact that Last whisper ignores half~ a tanks bonus armor, says something. If anything, the tank items were reactionary to the ADC items from preseason, which is a thing in of itself.

Devourer and rageblade aren't completely free of blame, to be fair. Honestly, the itemization champions have right now is kind of strong. It's to the point where Riot can't actually balance the game, without major changes, like another preseason. At this point, I'm just hoping S7 will be better.