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RIP Valor

SirShaggy·10/30/2015, 5:01:59 PM·50 votes·6,043 views
http://i.imgur.com/lDOP5jm.png

Despite what a lot of people think Quinn and Valor are actually in a good spot right now. They offer a fun and unique playstyle that can go Top, ADC, and even Mid sometimes. An ADC that can be an assassin, or a split-pushing lane-bullying bruiser. They're not LCS viable, but anyone that invests enough time to learn their playstyle will find themselves snowballing quickly with relative ease. As the first ADC I've ever gotten good at, I love Quinn and Valor! They're a great pick for learning how to position, read the map, and noticing when you have an opportunity for a good trade or a punish on enemies that over-extend. Being able to play such an underrated pick with success really put a smile on my face. It felt like old Karma again!

Unfortunately, it's old Karma again. With the way the PBE changes are looking Quinn and Valor is going to become Quinn and Quinn getting a ride from her pigeon friend. They not only removed her iconic blind that allowed her to 1v1 Vaynes and Rengars late-game, but completely reworked her partner Valor into an MMO mount. Now instead of being a situational yet powerful form of burst damage, dueling, and escapes, Valor is just Quinn's magic carpet to sail around the map on. Two kit-defining abilities were completely removed, and the last one, Skystrike, has been kept in just for the sake of nostalgia but doesn't actually have a use or deal any real damage. A 2-second channel for a mana-draining speedboost... That's an ultimate? They removed Valor's entire ability to fight and be his own character for that?

Quinn and Valor are supposed to be partners! They're a duo that works together. It's not like Annie and Tibbers or Nunu and Willump where one is just an accessory to the other. When Riot said they were going to work on a couple changes for Quinn/Valor I was already nervous, but they promised they would be keeping all the unique parts of their kit that the fans enjoyed. Once again Riot you've exceeded my expectations. You've completely gone against your word and are going to destroy the identity of another champion I love playing. I've only seen one reason for these changes: "We're trying to make her a roaming ADC". She already IS a roaming ADC! You win lane, then you roam or you split-push! You want her to be more of a roaming ADC? Fix her bugs so she can more easily win lane and roam! Or lower her ult cooldown! You don't have to rework her kit to accomplish this! This is just change for the sake of change at this point. It really does feel like a joke.

I don't care if they're never LCS-viable or even strong in the meta. I care about preserving what drew people to the champion in the first place. The whole appeal of playing as Quinn AND Valor is gone. It's just Quinn, a girl with a bird in her arsenal. All you had to do was fix the bugs on her autos and Vault, and maybe give some defensive stats to Valor. That's it. Everyone's happy. But I know how stubborn you are to admit mistakes or even find any sort of compromise with players so I'm not keeping my hopes up of ever being able to play my favorite ADC twosome again. It might look like them, but it sure as hell won't feel like them. I expect a refund on Corsair. Next time you rework a champion can you please be honest with your players that you're going to ruin their playstyle and identity? I'd really appreciate it.

71 Comments

jade harley BARK10/31/2015, 1:44:45 AM14 votes

Despite the majority disagreeing with these changes, odds are they're going to be official. I feel like a broken record, but she really just needed her bugs fixed and her ult having some defensive stats, MAYBE some other QOL things. Movement speed is nice, but you had that as valor. This new ult is solely just for roaming, nothing else. It's not really an escape when one hit from a minion disrupts the cast or one hit from an enemy champion cancels it. It's not really an engage either because...okay you're in lane now all you can do is vault and be pushed away. Additionally, taking away her blind is another core aspect being removed. Thematically it also makes no sense because, if a bird is flung at your face, I highly doubt you wouldnt be blinded. I haven't been able to get on the PBE yet (4000 player queue ayeee) but from what I've seen I'm really unhappy, especially as a Quinn main.

WarlockLaw10/30/2015, 5:12:49 PM11 votes

It's really sad that they basically took her ult and identity away. I currently go Botrk, Youmuu's, Black cleaver into situational items as top lane Quinn. The build allowed me to quickly kill a tower or assassinate the enemy adc with ease. It could also duel bruisers and tanks with some work/outplay. I ran around the map trying to look for mistakes I could exploit. An adc just slightly isolated, an undefended tower or a jungler trying to get a buff. If I split push and they send one she could kill them (either ulting a squishy or kiting a melee). Send a whole team and I ult + Youmuu's away. Send nobody and ult + Youmuu's kills a tower.

Stars Shaper10/30/2015, 7:49:02 PM9 votes

The great feature of Quinn was her being an hybrid MM/Assa, it was insanely fun to play and had gave her a unique play pattern plus punishing split pushers.

GetMariahCarried10/31/2015, 3:12:33 AM8 votes

I have a split opinion here. I agree that in some ways, Quinn's "niche" role was more of a role-mashup between assassin and adc that made her not necessarily as effective at either role as some other champ could have been. So, making a change that gets her back on track to serving a needed purpose at all levels of play is gonna require a little more than a few tweaks.

AT THE SAME TIME, the spirit of Quinn is the spirit of tag-team, and this is no longer a tag-team. It's just Quinn, with a premium membership to Gandalf's winged transportation services. Riot is not touching on the real issue. Valor's kit is basically a slight modification to Quinn's. Quinn's is best as a ranged champion, and that's why Valor suffered except during niche assassination opportunities. Quinn left you in a lot of situations where you actually had to wonder whether you should just stay as Quinn so you don't a) lose your passive and b) get blown up 'cause why the heck would you dive into melee range of 4 enemies?

Switching to a spammable ult from some OP rare-uber-burst skystrike that occurs maybe 10 times in total during a game? AWESOME. GOOD MOVE RIOT. You've made a step to balancing the roles between Quinn and Valor. Replacing everything else Valor did with, nothing? Uh, wait a sec... back up, huh? His main purpose when you're Quinn is both offensive and defensive utility. Shouldn't he be doing the same when you ult? The roaming is a good aspect to that, but it shouldn't be the ONLY aspect. Valor needed something to make him stand out more on a regular basis and for regular use, but something that would fit a melee style and put him on even ground with Quinn in terms of usefulness.

If it were me, I would experiment with a lower-damage but more defense/utility-oriented Valor that matches his uses for Quinn (he's a bird, not a gun/crossbow/cannon toting serial killer.) Consider, for example, the fact that he's in flight - shouldn't some of his movement put him in an untargetable state? Here's a collection of suggestion:

  • Instead of autoattacking, you're right clicks on enemy players periodically (maybe once every 2 seconds) marks them for OTHER players, like Valor does for Quinn when you ARE Quinn?
  • Increase the cc effects on q and e and reduce the cooldown, BUT drastically reduce the damage output.
  • Turn W into a semi-spammable toggle between "flight" mode where you soar above the battlefield, untargetable, granting vision and remove collision with walls, but can't interact with enemies offensively - and a ground-grazing mode, where you gain a temporary speed boost (from the falcon dive) and the abillity to use q and e and auto-marking (this could be EXTREMELY OP for spammable vision/untargettableness without extra balancing mechanics, but I think it would be very fun and unique, and also easily balanced with said additional mechanics. Maybe add huge mana costs, or a limited number of uses in a given use of Valor, or a fairly long channel mode between states while granting vision on Valor for the enemy team for the duration of flight mode (it's a bird, in the air. Surely people see it.)

Didn't expect to make a rework suggestion. Guess I should make a thread out of this toolkit suggestion. But back on point: The Quinn/Valor tag-team would become a glass-cannon/support-tank tag team. You would STILL have unique combo, STILL maintain the spirit of tag-team, and you'd potentially make Valor effective for teamfights and other purposes instead of just the rare assassination.

Maybe this isn't the best alternative choice for a rework, but it's better than "we're demoting Valor to dishwashing duty."

Bottom line: Riot, the OP is right. Fix Valor's "niche use" issue, but don't gut the tag-team.

ModKnightsKemplar10/30/2015, 7:47:23 PM6 votes

Sorry, but I agree with Riot. She ISN'T in a good spot, because she can't do ANY of her jobs better than other champs. As you've already said, that keeps her from being a competitive pick. The goal of league to to have many unique choices. I would argue that Quinn being unable to do something better than anyone else makes her hum-drum, and I think most players agree (not saying your opinion isn't valid, just that it's the minority one).

Question: Have you given her a try on the PBE? Maybe wait until you have to judge.

I find the scouting ability of Valor to be more convincing, thematically, than BatteBird. Willump and Tibbers are already combat pets; isn't it high time for a new concept of that teamwork? It's not like a hawk is a respectable opponent, anyway. Let's get real.

And I find it to be a very unique game mechanic. It could rescue Quinn from the clutches of mediocrity that she has been stuck in. And that's worth taking the risk, even when it offends the mains of that champ. Now she has something that no other champ can do.

Quinn doesn't exist for you. She exists for all of us. And most of us don't like her right now. Pitching a fit and demanding refunds on boards isn't making us sympathize with you at all. The rest of us really don't care about "preserving what drew people to the champion in the first place." We care about having a cool champ in that slot, and Riot is doing that. If that doesn't sit well with you, play a new game. Riot has been plain about their vision, and that vision isn't "preserve champ identities for their mains."

Battlecast Valor10/30/2015, 10:16:11 PM5 votes

Don't worry, Viktor already made me as a replacement!

But in all seriousness, the changes made me kinda sad. I've tried her out on the PBE and aside from some number tweaks they need to make it's not BAD but it's also just not the same. I loved Quinn's unique playstyle and niche and I feel like the rework destroyed that. The thing I miss the most though is being able to actually play and fight as Valor. I loved the idea of having a 2-in-1 champ and now that's gone... I'm relatively fine with all of the changes they've made except for the ult changes because it got rid of her identity.

Only Play Darius10/31/2015, 7:15:07 AM5 votes

The most fun part about playing Quinn for me was transforming into a menacing eagle and bursting people to death, so seeing this change to her ult makes me sad. I know she's in good hands with Repertoir so she will likely end up better off overall but the fact that they are removing Valor's combat form makes me sad inside, it was quite unlike any other ability in the game and while it was bad on an ADC and just underpowered in general, you can't deny that it was a blast to use.

TedBearSurvival10/31/2015, 1:49:22 AM5 votes

I don't like this new idea of nerfing Valor even though they buffed Quinn. I'm trying to play as much Quinn and Valor so I could have memories of dashing towards enemy with E. At leash keep Quinn's blind. But just removing CC from it makes it bad. Change it into a bleed or something so "Gouge 'me Valor!" Can mean something.

t0ad510/31/2015, 2:35:34 AM3 votes

I've learned how much they do not care about the Champs you have learned to enjoy playing. Only suggestion is to not given the money if you don't like what they are doing with their product, and try to encourage them to change for the better, them award them if they do... Basically I no longer see the point in supporting this company. Maybe they can do better for you.

Red Ryu10/31/2015, 8:56:42 PM3 votes

I love her new ult, bring the downvotes!

pWasHere10/30/2015, 8:48:51 PM2 votes

When they think the playstyle is unhealthy for the game, then you have two choices. You can have them rework it and kill the identity, or you can have them pretend the champ does not exist, never receiving a buff again. I prefer the former.

Good luck on getting that refund though.

Eyrgos10/31/2015, 10:34:08 AM2 votes

I'm terribly sad. Quinn has been my favorite champion since her pre-release... my favorite to play ever.

She's so bland now. Removal of Blind is depressing, that was my favorite part of her. Proper timing & mind-gaming with the Blind was core to her gameplay & the fantasy of playing her...

Much more Harrier marking waters down the mechanic, it's so frequent now it feels pointless.

Whereas she had excellent roaming with interesting effect before... now she only has the roaming... and it looks really stupid having Quinn hang onto Valor & makes no sense she can't auto while hanging on with the other arm.

Skystrike weaker? Saddening...

She also lost the play-making capability of surprise attacking with Valor form. That was the absolute best. The plays! The tower dives & the escapes.

If you're not going to up her AA range either, she should have even more base MS so she's viable as an ADC bot lane. Her fantasy should be the best kiter in the game.

Her mindgamey/playmaking gameplay being gutted is just the worst...

Not only that... you guys again screwed with her lane assignment...

And the Blind made her jungle viable so she didn't each too much damage from the Monsters.

Jungle Quinn was one of my absolute favorite ways to play her & it's something I've requested you guys keep intact and/or enhance constantly.

Another thing. Is nothing was done to enhance Valor's interplay... that was the single biggest request among fans upon hearing she'd be received any sort of update.

More frequent Harriering doesn't count.

The loss of Valor's v. of her abilities is a huge hit on Valor interplay too.

Man, this sucks... I'm so depressed about this :/

Please fix this. Quinn is ruined in this state, nearly everything I loved about her spoiled or removed.

She's utterly ruined. Please revert. Or let's go back to the drawing board.

Athenes Lulu10/31/2015, 10:00:15 PM2 votes

Old Karma again? That's what it sounds like. Reworking a champ simply because she is unpopular.

People weirded themselves out whenever I say Quinn is actually strong botlane, especially when working with a backline support that can just throw all the buffs. You see stupid scaling ADCs like Jinx, Vayne, or Trist? Fuck that shit, throw a blind and Quinn now can 1v1 them at ANY stage of the game. You see smelly lane bullies like Cait? No, step down, Quinn is our queen today. And now add a just as underrated Lulu support and it's literally a free win lane. I loved Quinn despite of her weird kit, and even the playerbase (more like Quinn mains) are awesome people. She is so underrated, so if I ever see one (which is actually only five times this season in ranked), I know botlane is going to be awesome, even if we don't win games. Speaking of snowballing... good times!

From a pretty darn unique kit that is unpopular to a "just your roaming poky adc hurr durr", that's what I'm seeing (or at least sorta). I'm pretty sure her identity is some kind of "scouting tag team", in which is already fitting in her old kit. In the new one, the "tag team" doesn't really fit anymore, Valor is pretty much a MMO mount, like you mentioned.

Just remember the Morde rework that created a community backlash. Just remember the death of Old Karma that actually has a unique kit instead of being Lulu v0.1.5. This is what Quinn rework is going to be like, and it's most likely gonna happen.

Neahkahnie10/31/2015, 2:31:35 AM2 votes

The changes are terrible. Everyone on the PBE boards, and everyone here has pretty much told them that.

The major concern isn't the results were bad, it's that the developer can't look at their own work with enough of a discerning eye to recognize the changes are bad. I know it can be really hard when one is in the middle of creation to step back and really think about your own work objectively, but its a very important skill.

The next test is whether pride will get in the way, and these changes are pushed through in spite of the majority opinion.

Zair Umbras10/31/2015, 7:51:15 AM1 votes

Honestly, Quinn's old kit made her impossible to play as an ADC in team fights since her power was shoved into her R, which turned you into a melee, so you had to go bruiser-ish, not ADC, which... that's... That's not being an ADC. She filled a niche of being a top lane bully and split pusher who couldn't do anything in a team fight. She had to pick people off 1v1, burst them down quick with her R, then GTFO and wait for her R CD to come back. You could play Tryn and do that, but better, plus you'd be useful in team fights with your 5s of them having to use CC to keep you from murdering their carry and it'd take 2-3 just to stop you from split pushing at all points of the game.

Quinn just ended up like Urgot where she was better everywhere but in the ADC role, but designed to BE an ADC. This rework still doesn't work her into being an ADC, but she can jungle, top, mid, or be a roaming ADC. Her power isn't shoved into her R anymore and as long as you build crit, you'll do a ton of damage. She has a good place now with being a roaming ADC, something we've only ever had once and that was Twitch.

Samflash310/31/2015, 5:03:54 PM1 votes

Putting a (in my opinion, awesome) picture of Quinn and Valor doesn't change the fact that Quinn needed work done in her kit. Passive was random, E wasn't exactly the most reliable spell with its random positioning whenever you're in an enclosed space.

And the change isn't exactly out on Live servers yet.