Range supports have take over the Top Lane

Zedthul·Feb 18, 2020·23 votes·11,437 views

It's been reported that Soraka is getting nerfed to the ground next patch due to dominating the Top lane. Now though, Sona has overtaken Soraka and now has the highest win rate for Top lane on OP.GG with a 4.58% pick rate while Soraka has a dropped to #2 with a 6.87% pick rate. Perhaps it time to consider that it's not the Champion that's overpowered but something else like the Dragon buffs? Or perhaps other traditional Top Lane Champions that have become weak? Since when has ranged supports suddenly dominated the top 2 tier spots in the Top lane?

63 Comments

IVSakenzFeb 18, 202023 votes

It is because RIOT took all the focus off of lanes and put it into jungle and the neutral mobs that inhabit it..

soraka and sona are being played top because they do not need to win lane to be effective.. they can be behind in cs.. lose towers early.. even feed the opposing laner, and still be an asset to the team during team fights etc...

No lane really matters if you win it or not initially.. not if your getting every dragon and baron.. because when team fights happen you can take a full lane down and be at nexus within the 30 second respawn timer after you ace the opposing team..

and it all boils down to the fact that damage is way to high across the board... except turrets... they do next to nothing and need a major buff... turrett diving at level 6 should not be a thing...

Sycoblast69Feb 18, 20209 votes

{quoted}

It is because RIOT took all the focus off of lanes and put it into jungle and the neutral mobs that inhabit it..

and it all boils down to the fact that damage is way to high across the board... except turrets... they do next to nothing and need a major buff... turrett diving at level 6 should not be a thing...

2 different ways to solve the turret dive issue:

Turret damage should be changed to deal flat true damage + bonus damage based on target Max HP. Discourage solo dives regardless of assassins or tanks. Turrets have not kept up with the damage creep. Dives should be a example of solid teamwork and juggling aggro.
Turret plating should also increase the player's defensive stats when they are under tower. more plates + more bonus defenses. discourages dives because you become VERY difficult to kill under a healthy tower, but gives an alternative by encouraging taking plates. This also helps put a focus on laning and farming, even when being pushed in.

ZedthulFeb 18, 20202 votes

{quoted}

2 different ways to solve the turret dive issue:

Turret damage should be changed to deal flat true damage + bonus damage based on target Max HP. Discourage solo dives regardless of assassins or tanks. Turrets have not kept up with the damage creep. Dives should be a example of solid teamwork and juggling aggro.

Turret plating should also increase the player's defensive stats when they are under tower. more plates + more bonus defenses. discourages dives because you become VERY difficult to kill under a healthy tower, but gives an alternative by encouraging taking plates. This also helps put a focus on laning and farming, even when being pushed in.

I watched a YouTube Video of a high Elo Mundo that soloed 2 towers the 2nd and 3rd throughout the game, he stood under the tower and took them down with no minion help full tower hp to zero. It was crazy because it wasn't like he just took 2 or 3 shots, it was more like 5 or 6.

IVSakenzFeb 18, 20202 votes

{quoted}

2 different ways to solve the turret dive issue:

Turret damage should be changed to deal flat true damage + bonus damage based on target Max HP. Discourage solo dives regardless of assassins or tanks. Turrets have not kept up with the damage creep. Dives should be a example of solid teamwork and juggling aggro.

Turret plating should also increase the player's defensive stats when they are under tower. more plates + more bonus defenses. discourages dives because you become VERY difficult to kill under a healthy tower, but gives an alternative by encouraging taking plates. This also helps put a focus on laning and farming, even when being pushed in.

those are both pretty good ideas.. I was just thinking it should do true damage and have a faster fire rate... similar to how DOTA towers work, they will roast you within seconds even at high level.

but I really like the plating giving resistances..

ŚhunpoFeb 19, 20202 votes

3: Turrets auto-reset upon a champion hitting the tower's allied champ while they're under it, and that shot connects regardless of distance. Too many times I see the turrets just outright NEVER hit a champion, especially if they're ranged.

AdeokunFeb 18, 20202 votes

{quoted}

It is because RIOT took all the focus off of lanes and put it into jungle and the neutral mobs that inhabit it..

soraka and sona are being played top because they do not need to win lane to be effective.. they can be behind in cs.. lose towers early.. even feed the opposing laner, and still be an asset to the team during team fights etc...

No lane really matters if you win it or not initially.. not if your getting every dragon and baron.. because when team fights happen you can take a full lane down and be at nexus within the 30 second respawn timer after you ace the opposing team..

and it all boils down to the fact that damage is way to high across the board... except turrets... they do next to nothing and need a major buff... turrett diving at level 6 should not be a thing...

You deserve a cookie, typing straight facts is not an easy job.

Z3SIeeperFeb 18, 20203 votes

Turret diving at level 3 shouldn't be a thing either. Elise

ZairelFeb 18, 20201 votes

{quoted}

It is because RIOT took all the focus off of lanes and put it into jungle and the neutral mobs that inhabit it..

soraka and sona are being played top because they do not need to win lane to be effective.. they can be behind in cs.. lose towers early.. even feed the opposing laner, and still be an asset to the team during team fights etc...

No lane really matters if you win it or not initially.. not if your getting every dragon and baron.. because when team fights happen you can take a full lane down and be at nexus within the 30 second respawn timer after you ace the opposing team..

and it all boils down to the fact that damage is way to high across the board... except turrets... they do next to nothing and need a major buff... turrett diving at level 6 should not be a thing...

You may thing this is funny ,but i'm currently plat 1 i lost in bronze yes my flex is bronze cause riot to soraka as mordekaiser. She out damaged me early game I know your gonna try to tell me I'm horrible and stuff but legit I got hit by 1 q was done to 80 percent hp i pinged it early game.

vgamedudeFeb 18, 202011 votes

It's because this game has natural major issues with how melee and range is treated.

RayetFeb 18, 20209 votes

Nah, they will first nerf 10 supports, then maybe address the real problem in a wrong way as usual. After the show is over, they will forget to revert the support nerfs. That's how they use their 200+ years of experience.

vgamedudeFeb 18, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Nah, they will first nerf 10 supports, then maybe address the real problem in a wrong way as usual. After the show is over, they will forget to revert the support nerfs. That's how they use their 200+ years of experience.

Theyll never address the melee range imbalance. Doing so would mean addressing core issues with the game and that's too hard. Instead we'll continue seeing every single main core either be range or have ranged abilities.

IllabetheFeb 18, 20204 votes

It's not imbalance. It actually IS balanced..... in the sense of a game of chess. A rook doesn't have the same powers as a bishop or a knight. Champions are not all Pawns who can only move one space forward.

Many games' core values are based around at least a triad of hard counter rock paper scissors as well; Warriors beat Rogues while Rogues beat Mages while Mages beat Warriors.

In both of these situations, when you put two of a kind against each other, what happens?

In Chess, a Rook in line with a Rook will never happen, because it's one of the most obvious "If I do this, I will lose one of my most influential pieces." Thus, in a vacuum, Rook vs Rook is a stalemate.

When Warrior vs Warrior happens, it's a draw. same with Rock vs Rock.

In contrast.....League players have gotten overly satisfied with Warrior vs Warrior top lane exchanges and forgot about triangular balance and when they have to encounter it, they cry foul about balance.

IMelchorIFeb 18, 20203 votes

{quoted}

It's not imbalance. It actually IS balanced..... in the sense of a game of chess. A rook doesn't have the same powers as a bishop or a knight. Champions are not all Pawns who can only move one space forward.

Many games' core values are based around at least a triad of hard counter rock paper scissors as well; Warriors beat Rogues while Rogues beat Mages while Mages beat Warriors.

In both of these situations, when you put two of a kind against each other, what happens?

In Chess, a Rook in line with a Rook will never happen, because it's one of the most obvious "If I do this, I will lose one of my most influential pieces." Thus, in a vacuum, Rook vs Rook is a stalemate.

When Warrior vs Warrior happens, it's a draw. same with Rock vs Rock.

In contrast.....League players have gotten overly satisfied with Warrior vs Warrior top lane exchanges and forgot about triangular balance and when they have to encounter it, they cry foul about balance.

the difference to chess is that a player controlls more than one single unit.

nobody wants to play a game where the lane is decided in champ select and your ability to win or lose lane only depends on your luck how you are positioned in the draft order.

especially since this games matchmaking has no problems thorwing you into first pick position 5 games in a row.

IllabetheFeb 19, 20201 votes

The entire conversation went over your head.

Games are designed AROUND the concept of Chess or Rock vs Scissors (Simplified Chess).

Also, you're ignoring that's EXACTLY WHAT EVERY OTHER LANE IS!

Mid is almost never Mage vs Mage; It's Mage vs Assassin. Bot is strategized around Support who counters ADC or counters Support or Both. Well practiced matches = Almost always the counters win bot lane. Jungle is designed around counterplay

It's only top who feels they are entitled to non-champ select play.

Sycoblast69Feb 19, 20202 votes

{quoted}

It's only top who feels they are entitled to non-champ select play.

That's cause the position often is left on an island, functioning independent and away from the rest of the game. Especially in the dragon-focused game that currently exist, JG's are spending most if not all of there time bot lane. It's very possible to play top lane and never see another player until Baron spawns.

vgamedudeFeb 18, 20201 votes

{quoted}

It's not imbalance. It actually IS balanced..... in the sense of a game of chess. A rook doesn't have the same powers as a bishop or a knight. Champions are not all Pawns who can only move one space forward.

Many games' core values are based around at least a triad of hard counter rock paper scissors as well; Warriors beat Rogues while Rogues beat Mages while Mages beat Warriors.

In both of these situations, when you put two of a kind against each other, what happens?

In Chess, a Rook in line with a Rook will never happen, because it's one of the most obvious "If I do this, I will lose one of my most influential pieces." Thus, in a vacuum, Rook vs Rook is a stalemate.

When Warrior vs Warrior happens, it's a draw. same with Rock vs Rock.

In contrast.....League players have gotten overly satisfied with Warrior vs Warrior top lane exchanges and forgot about triangular balance and when they have to encounter it, they cry foul about balance.

Except this game isn't dota, you don't have give and take the same way in melee vs range as you do in a moba like dota. Its why even melee like yasuo, designed to lane vs range, is still garbage in general taken bot lane against range right clickers and it's rare that he is even picked there.

Does yasuo carry harder than a typical adc late to make up for this? Nope. Does he provide more cc or control? Nope. There is a reason melee position 1 is basically entirely unviable in this game.

IllabetheFeb 19, 20201 votes

https://u.gg/lol/champions/yasuo/build?role=adc

I'd say 50.7% win rate in bot with 1.7% pick rate is substantial.

vgamedudeFeb 19, 20202 votes

{quoted}

https://u.gg/lol/champions/yasuo/build?role=adc

I'd say 50.7% win rate in bot with 1.7% pick rate is substantial.

1.7 percent pickrate lmao. Thats around kalista but with a lower winrate and everyone talks about how she is unplayable trash or needs "love".

This is also the only melee in the game played bot and he is literally designed to be. And one of the most popular champions in the game too by the way, with very high pick and ban rates elsewhere. That is a supremely low bot pickrate considering that.

3TWarriorFeb 18, 20203 votes

you realize the Rook is one of the most powerful pieces, right? The reason the rook is less often used as an opening move is that it takes time for it to move out. This time lets the opponent set their pieces into position...

also, pawns are essentially minions and they have multiple methods of moving (diagnoal, 1 space, and even a special move that allows them to take another piece that is blocking their path)

chess lesson aside, you seem to forget that there were also several generalist classes in the rock/paper/scissors analogy

fighters, supports and marksmen to name the primary ones

these three classes could beat anything else but had to be set up in order to do so

IllabetheFeb 19, 20201 votes

Pawns can only move diagonal when taking a piece. En Passant is exclusively in game to prevent an exploitable move 2 spaces forward to prevent a capture. It does not prevent blocks. The Blocks all still occur.

Rook has a weakness in that it takes 2 moves to align it with an objective, and only travels in straight lines.

You don't seem to know much about Chess :S.

3TWarriorFeb 24, 20201 votes

yet you repeat what I just said and overlook that the Rook is nearly essential for any other piece to set up as well as to protect your pieces from the bishops and queens getting to the back of your board

the bishop also only travels in straight lines. The two are counterparts to one another. One travels diagonally, the other travels horizontally or vertically

castling is another fun trait unique to rooks

VerxintFeb 18, 20204 votes

Ah yes, a triangle balance!

Okay, so mage beats warrior. Warrior beats.... Huh well they lose to marksmen And to supports And to assassins

Hmm...

IllabetheFeb 19, 20201 votes

So choose a Marksman or Diver vs said Support/marksman etc rather than being a meta - nub playing a melee into something that counters.

P.S. Most top melee champs scale into beating those champion classes. They just never get there if they have to LANE vs them.

WarmasFeb 18, 20206 votes

At this point the message is to all toplaners is to leave, because they never intend to care about the lane.

Clockwork MouseFeb 19, 20205 votes

Yeah, top is dead, tanks are too squishy, bruisers suck, and damage is too high. RIot needs to do something, this game is in free fall.

BijeesnyFeb 18, 20204 votes

"Range supports have take over the Top Lane"

names only 2 ranged supps that are good atm ignores sona's pickrate ignores every other melee thats high up there with sona and soraka

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

SiG DxDFeb 18, 20204 votes

playing melee vs range is not fun, especially when th melee cant close the gap and gets pushed out of lane

that is toplane full of sona/soraka/lucian /vayne

IMelchorIFeb 18, 20204 votes

this is the problem with ranged top laners. they are convenience picks for people who do not know how to play melee matchups.

99% of the people never pick a ranged top laner because it does fit their teamcomp or because they like to main the champion.

they are just picked as reaction picks against certain melee champions by people who think "oh boy, if i pick this champion then my opponent has no real ability to play against me and i can just auto pilot the lane".

3TWarriorFeb 18, 20203 votes

well, this is about supports and not ranged picks(the supports often hard-lose the lane and then win the match due to being more valuable to the team)

there are also matchups that just really suck to play against, especially if you are not VERY familiar with the lane

Darius , Aatrox , Irelia , Fiora , Renekton , Riven , Olaf , Tryndamere

any one of these champs will absolutely destroy someone who is not a top main

#then, as a followup, melee and ranged playstyles are completely different. You assume that people just want to win with an advantage, but at the same time, melee carries rely on perfectly executed engages and ganks or rely on their opponents having SPECIFIC mechanisms to deal with them

as an example, why would you want to play MasterYi when you can play Vayne or Twitch ? Master yi is equally powerful but has more weaknesses to exploit and is melee only range

IMelchorIFeb 18, 20203 votes

maybe the problem is deeper than that and all ranged top laners are just cheese picks that are picked because their players just want a free lane against melee champions.

is there even a single ranged top laner that is picked for his own value and not just because he counters some specific melee champion or most of them in lane and gets to play the lane without any real risk?

3TWarriorFeb 18, 20201 votes

Vladimir Quinn Gnar Heimerdinger Jayce Rumble Urgot

I'd argue teemo, but his kit counters a large number. In most cases he is picked because someone likes him or so that the lane does not end up a one-sided smash, but ironically, if the opponent does not know how to deal with him, that is what will happen

IllabetheFeb 18, 20203 votes

It's far simpler.

90% of players are not meta breakers. Every class of champion has hard counters and utility counters who can shut down performance.

Who does Garen/Darius Fear?

It's generally Bot laners. They generally control and hard counter most top lane champions.

Because one group decided to stay in one lane and one group decided to stay in another, the issue has never arisen significantly.

The only times the issue gets an identity is when some high profile matches contain them and other players begin to mimic it loudly.

After Sona and Soraka, expect a cycle of Zyra/Brand/Lulu Top.

It's very likely that Garen's rework has a big impact on why people are doing it a little more now. His attack speed/offensive build that he uses now basically means to win games, you have to shut him down or deprive him at level 1. Otherwise, he just runs around shredding people mid/late game. Most melee range champions dont do this to him. Healing is one of the biggest counters to Garen's kit, as is self mobility/range. It likely started there, and spread to other champion matchups.

Drake priority DOES play a role. The game pacing right now is generally so fast that underleveled junglers + drake cooldowns generally force most jungler rotations to stay bot or lose, so what used to be a goofy deviant play in top lane is now a legitimate tactic, because the threat of a 2v1 top lane gank has diminished so much (In the past if top bruisers wanted to kill a top lane enchanter, all they generally needed was a jungle gank, and many times they could even kill the enchanter in turret dives)

3TWarriorFeb 18, 20204 votes

actually, the issue isn't so much countering, it's that damage is so high that carries are now more important than a front line. The double support strategy creates a "front line" by making the carries far harder to kill

any support can pull off this strategy. it's effectively the Ardent Censor meta all over again with the "protect the koggle" strategy

if every carry becomes a hyper-carry, then they hyper carry

SmyrageFeb 19, 20201 votes

Last year in one of the clash matches, our Top ran Zyra and hard won the lane 2 times out of 3. In the last match, she lost to the enemy laner, but at the same time not really, because she didn't lose the tower. Mages on top have always been showing up from time to time.

TrueDamage NinjaFeb 18, 20203 votes

Meta change. Let the supports fight on top and let the bruisers go to the support lane.

Can't wait for support Garen fighting support Tryn.

GinoSoldierFeb 18, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=TrueDamage Ninja,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vNL9RXH,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2020-02-18T14:07:39.108+0000)

Meta change. Let the supports fight on top and let the bruisers go to the support lane.

Can't wait for support Garen fighting support Tryn.

I fucking wish. We could finally see supports fully unleashed with full gold income and full access to items that aren't gimp 2000-2400 cost low-budget garbage. (in all fairness most supp items are good... for their prices.)

But no. Because Soraka healing for 500+ a pop is a crime and needs to never exist, but there's totally nothing wrong with Draven critting someone for 1200 hp and healing 500, because it's flashy.

People can't accept change, even if it might be for the better in the long run. They never were.

vgamedudeFeb 19, 20201 votes

{quoted}

I fucking wish. We could finally see supports fully unleashed with full gold income and full access to items that aren't gimp 2000-2400 cost low-budget garbage. (in all fairness most supp items are good... for their prices.)

But no. Because Soraka healing for 500+ a pop is a crime and needs to never exist, but there's totally nothing wrong with Draven critting someone for 1200 hp and healing 500, because it's flashy.

People can't accept change, even if it might be for the better in the long run. They never were.

Duh. One protects the adc the other takes away their thunder, we can't have that now can we?

MrFawknSunshineFeb 18, 20202 votes

lol raka is used to counter sett

Magical PoopFeb 18, 20201 votes

{quoted}

lol raka is used to counter sett

more like melee champs with no mobility but yeah.

3TWarriorFeb 18, 20203 votes

more like using the damage meta against itself

they win by keeping carries alive and the carries are OP

they resurrected the ardent censor/ protect the koggle strategies by replacing the front line with unkillable carries

Caitlyn FTWFeb 18, 20202 votes

I don't see Lux, Zyra, Lulu and other range supports in the top lane tho

IllabetheFeb 18, 20202 votes

They will be. Top lane is going through a cycle fad of uninteractive lanes because of drake/jungle changes pushing priority play entirely to drake/bot lane. Zyra especially will hit a play fad as Top, as will Lulu.

Minimac2000Feb 18, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ask Me To Swap ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vNL9RXH,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2020-02-18T09:33:37.899+0000)

I don't see Lux, Zyra, Lulu and other range supports in the top lane tho

They already had to deal with lulu being played top and mid several times, so her numbers aren't high like the other enchanters. Janna is probably next tho, then nami. The others won't go top because they actually need gold to function as burst mages and the point of playing enchanters top is getting to play "inting sona" for 15 minutes and then out carry the game anyway

Pika310Feb 18, 20202 votes

Solo-lane Lulu was played for her utility-AP scalings. Soraka is being played top lane because she doesn't need AP. It's literally two polar opposite abuse cases.

Top-lane Lulu can most assuredly make a reappearance, since the point is to play a character that is useful w/o expensive items & scalings. The point isn't to buy AP or be a "burst mage," it's to be a 2nd support, a heal/shieldbot in reminiscence of the old "protect the ADC" comps.

Sleeping BatFeb 18, 20201 votes

The others won't go top because they actually need gold to function as burst mages

Ryze Kayle Cassiopeia Mordekaiser ets [slayer-jinx-catface]

IllabetheFeb 19, 20201 votes

Zyra top does fine both in farm, poke, and in control and levels.

Daddy AntsFeb 18, 20202 votes

There's nothing in the rules to suggest that top lane is just for melee champions.

FSRERFeb 18, 20202 votes

These two are getting nerfed aparently but just wait until champions like Janna Karma , find their way back Toplane, again

SaezioFeb 18, 20202 votes

Maybe riot could just help top lane have importance somehow. If they are on an island of course shit like sona/soraka are gonna be good because they just forego lane to be useful late.

Make top able to carry again and all this shit will be gone, dragon soul is too important and too strong for a buff that lasts FOREVER.

(MAYBE REMOVE THE DAMN STUPID SOUL? OR GIVE SOUL 3 MINUTE DURATION AND ADDED DAMAGE TO ELDER? INSTEAD ADD SOME EXTRA GOLD TO DRAGON TAKING AND KEEP THEIR BUFFS AS THEY ARE NOW)

vgamedudeFeb 20, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Kalista is .7% Pick rate.

Keep in mind that there are 26 adcs, and many off meta "carries" playing that role, like Heimerdinger, Swain, etc.

1.7% is a common pick rate.

It's not Ezreal's occasional 15%-30%, or in meta Ashe/Caitlyn 15%, but it is a common pick rate (fillers and people who like adcs pick those three champs a lot simply because they have severe from level 1 bully potential/uninteractive kits, and because 90% of the community plays meta)

Where do you get these numbers? 26 adcs? There are 19 on U.GG and one is yasuo, kalistas pickrate is 1.4 percent NOT .7 percent. You know, just twice is much is all.