Boards›Gameplay

With people becoming more and more familiar with Sylas, we need to talk about AP Bruiser Itemization

Electro522·1/27/2019, 12:04:42 PM·69 votes·23,535 views

Sylas is, in every sense of the word, an AP Bruiser Fighter. The only other champion in the game that could possibly be considered as one is Rumble (some could also argue Morde, but.......he's weird).

Thing is, people are starting to realize that Sylas isn't as strong as he was initially made out to be. In fact, he may be quite weak. Granted, at time of writing this, he's been out for a total of 2 days....people are still trying to figure him out, especially since people have figured out that the recommended item page he has sucks. And that's what people are starting to realize is what Sylas' problem is.......he isn't weak because of numbers or what not, he's weak because there are no items that fit his playstyle.

Let's imagine all of Sylas' ratios as AD, and all of his damage is physical, but his abilities still do the same exact thing. If this were the case, he would play very similarly to Riven, Aatrox, and Darius. Champions that build AD, but most of their damage is focused into their abilities. In fact, he's likely the closest to Riven, since you want to weave auto attacks in between abilities (a common combo is: E1, aa, Q, aa, E2, aa, W, aa. And it's quite easy to pull off).

AD Bruisers have a very healthy set of items to build into. They include: item 3071 item 3812 item 3022 item 3156 item 3074 item 3748 item 3053 item 3026 and item 3078 . There are other items that these champs do like (such as tank items), but generally, these items tend to focus on 3 major stats: AD, Health, and sustain.

Now, let's see what an AP Bruiser can look into: item 3151 item 3027 item 3157 item 3116 item 3146 maybe item 3165 and..........that's it. 2 items give sustain, one of which has lack luster at best sustain, and the other is a hybrid item; one item that gives CDR, and it's more suited for mages anyway; and 4 items that give health, but 2 of which have passives that are very weak.

In order for champions like Sylas and Rumble to do their jobs accordingly, they're going to need more diverse itemization than that. Unfortunately, we have a problem..........AP Assassins.

Specifically: Akali, Ekko, Kassadin, and Fizz. All 4 of these are melee AP assassins/skirmishers, and all of them (save for Kassadin) have abused tank items in the past in order to become a hyper mobile menace that simply can not be stopped. If AP Bruisers do get their items, it is very likely that these champs will become unstoppable.

So, this will require a 2 step process....first, give AP bruisers the items they need. Yes, at the moment, there are only 2 of them (3 if you somehow count Morde), but that only means that there is plenty of room for growth in this specific subclass. Any future AP Brusier will only fall into the same hole that Sylas and Rumble currently sit in.

Second is tweak the AP assassins so that they don't abuse the items that the AP Bruisers need. Akali I think would actually be ok out of the 4, if you are to leave her the way she is (with the incoming Shroud nerfs). It would solidify her as a skirmisher, and she'd actually feel like a real champ again! Ekko and Fizz will definitely need more of their power shifted into their ratios, Ekko especially. This, however, will make Fizz's laning phase even worse than it historically has been, so, it might be wise to add in some extre minion damage to his E possibly. Kassadin is a weird cookie, since he scales off of mana. I guess if there are any items that come along that give mana, then he may need to be looked at.

I am really enjoying Sylas, especially since his gameplay allows me to use my 5+ years experience in a new unique way that hasn't been possible before. However, if we want to keep him as an AP bruiser, and not make him just some special Ekko clone, the game is going to need to change around him (and Rumble).

P.S.

For those of you wondering about Katarina, she needs to work more than the other 4 in order to get to her targets, while also having no way of locking down her targets. This is why she will likely be very minimally impacted by these item changes. There could be an item that comes around that some people might enjoy building on her (possibly like a Death's Dance equivalent), but she likely won't be a problem.

128 Comments

OtterlyLost1/27/2019, 1:36:11 PM45 votes

Diana is also an AP Bruiser but gets shoved into the role of AP Assassin due to the lack of AP Bruiser itemization. Specifically she's like an AP Nocturne or Xin; she dives in and looks to do a lot of damage around her. She has no means of getting out when she goes in, specifically labeling her as not an Assassin(who usually have means of getting in and out of fights after they engage).

Please don't forget that Diana was one of the original first real attempts to make an AP Bruiser. :( People always do and they always label her an "assassin" when she's not; she's a subclass of bruisers at best.

Bouncemaster Zac1/27/2019, 2:58:06 PM33 votes

Bring item 3170 to SR. People have been asking for years, and there's really no reason not to. It'd be ideal for AP bruisers.

Sp33d Zer01/27/2019, 6:28:52 PM21 votes

Diana Elise Galio Mordekaiser Rumble Singed Sylas Swain Vladimir are all champions I personally think are either at their best when they are able to be an AP bruiser, or best designed when an AP bruiser. All of these are champions that IMO suffer from either having pure mage items, or pure tank items as their only real options.

feintfiend1/27/2019, 5:31:51 PM15 votes

Make AP Bruiser items melee only so ranged mages won't abuse them

LTK KoRo1/27/2019, 1:44:03 PM13 votes

All what AP fighters need is an AP version of Steraks. AP fighters have good damage items, but they lack any relevant survivability in middle of the fights. AD Bruisers got this problem addressed with Steraks.

OFC AP sterak would need to be melee only too.

Mael Jade1/27/2019, 3:56:44 PM11 votes

Dont forget Diana. She is also supposed to be an AP Bruiser/Fighter but she is just an assassin because there is no good itemization.

Frosted Tips1/27/2019, 12:33:18 PM9 votes

I post about this like every month and it just never gains enough traction. AP Bruiser Itemization is absolutely trash and people say it isn't because they are scared that mages will abuse the new items made for bruisers or AP assassins will abuse them. AP bruisers need to be able to build bruiser but they are forced to build like a mage and that is not ok.

Targon1/27/2019, 5:46:14 PM8 votes

What AP bruiser itemization is lacking is a good first item buy. If you're an AD bruiser you can buy either item 3078 or item 3071, both of which offer great dueling and sticking power, while also offers durability and a high amount of CDR for abilities.

Comparatively, AP bruisers could first buy item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 item 3152 or item 3115, and none of these items alone offer the same level of dueling with durability and CDR as Trinity Force and Black Cleaver do. And by the time you get 2 AP bruiser items, your damage and/or durability has likely been outscaled by the counterpart 2 AD bruiser builds.

Give an AP version of Trinity Force and Black Cleaver for champions like Sylas Diana Gragas Chogath Nidalee Amumu Rumble Elise Mordekaiser, and put any necessary handicaps on it so that it doesn't get abused by AP Assassins and mages. Make it expensive too, like 3000g-3733g:

AP Trinity Force 250 HP 50 AP 40% Attack Speed 300 Mana 20% CDR 5% Movement Speed Phage passive for sticking power, and, Sheen or Nashors passive for dueling potential. Attack speed and sustained damage passive makes it less desirable on AP assassins who would rather burst you. Mana makes it less desirable on Katarina and Akali specifically. If need be, tune it so that Kayle Teemo KogMaw Kaisa Azir Varus wouldn't be able to abuse it.

AP Black Cleaver 400 HP 65 AP 20% CDR Phage passive, and 4% MR shred per stack, up to 5 stack for 20% MR shred. Make it so that stacks are gained at most once per second per unique ability hit, or some sort of limit so that champions like Cassiopeia Azir Ryze can't abuse it as hard. Or just make it melee only.

CrazyMonkeyCZ1/27/2019, 12:18:26 PM7 votes

As Rumble main, I'm ok with itemization, and I prefer to melt enemies with ult, rather than being tanky. This in my normal build item 3165 item 3151 item 3157 item 3135 item 3089 item 3020 item 3116 situational vs immobile adc and mages, you can basically send them back to base just by R with it.

Also you forgotitem 3152

Eonslegacy1/27/2019, 2:27:49 PM4 votes

Sylas isnt really weak due to items. He is weak because he went from having a 400 point shield 900 damage nuke w with a 1k hp heal on it, to 700 healing a nd shielding with a 500 damage nuke. He got nerfed really hard from pbe from being op. Now he is just a situational pick based on enemy teamcomp. His R was NEVER gonna be abalnced tool, it was ALWAYS gonna make him a counterpick, he was just FLAT OUT BROKEN on pbe. Then he got his wings clipped.

The Lunari1/28/2019, 9:45:10 AM4 votes

Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana Diana

ModWulf Helhammer1/27/2019, 3:33:26 PM4 votes

This isn’t a question of itemization. This is one of how the game itself functions.

AP Bruisers and fighters will not function as a class until some kind of large systemic change happens.

Ap champions, no matter if they are more niche as a DPS, always function on burst, trying to get the most damage in as little an amount of time. Why? Because nearly all of their damage is in their spells, which have cool downs, giving them a down time on their damage.

AD champs don’t have this problem, as they always have the fallback of autoing, giving them a 1:1 AD spell with a basically neglible cool down. Even then, we typically see a lot of bruisers going 1 or 2 damage items then into tank, just because it’s the more viable option (as long as you have consistent DPS, staying alive gives you more power, particularly with built in sustain or DR that a lot of fighters have)

This means that even given the right kinds of items, unless they absurdly powerful, ap fighters are just going to default to what they do now: build for max burst and try to assassinate. If they can, then they typically become low counterplay instakill champs, like Diana. If they can’t, well then we get Sylas.

And Riot can’t make those absurdly powerful items, because then every mage and ap assassin the game will take advantage of them and run completely rampant.

Until some kind of change can be made that changes AP as a class away from being purely burst, then AP fighters just will not work. Maybe they can get one that functions well, giving it a passive where autos only scale with AP or something, but as a class, it’s not going to happen.

BoilTheOil1/27/2019, 8:42:26 PM3 votes

Bring back Will Of The Ancients in a different way Most ap bruiser have low spell cooldowns that they want to keep spamming so this would be a good item for them

2700 gold item 3108 + item 1052 + item 1028 + 965 gold
65 ap 10% cdr 250 health

Passive: After using 4 abilities while in combat against champions, your next spell against a champion heals you for 40-100 (+40% ability power) health

Kelg1/28/2019, 3:31:02 AM3 votes

put HP on item 3115 and boom you got an ap bruiser item

ModThe Djinn1/27/2019, 4:37:59 PM3 votes

{quoted}Second is tweak the AP assassins so that they don't abuse the items that the AP Bruisers need.

Legitimate question here -- how? One of the issues with AP is that it doesn't really have multiple scaling methods like AD does with Critical Strike and Attack Speed (Cooldown Reduction functions as a sort of stop-gap for this), so if a bruiser item has enough AP to make an AP Bruiser want it then it is going to be appealing to assassins/mages, and if it has less AP then bruisers need higher ratios to compensate, which risks putting them all into assassin patterns if they buy normal AP.

Short of awkward solutions like items that grant scaling AP based on health (which runs the risk of tanks with strong ratios picking up those items), I'm a little uncertain how one would be go about creating this sort of item or tweaking assassins to not find them appealing.

Secondly, are we happy with a world where every AP Bruiser needs to be specifically designed to have an anti-burst pattern, or do you think the role of AP needs another look to avoid Bruisers having incentive to simply front-load every spell?

The23rdGamer1/28/2019, 2:26:40 AM3 votes

Am I the only one hoping that with the newly announced Mordekaiser rework we can finally get the AP Bruiser items that we've needed for awhile?

SettDownShutUp1/27/2019, 9:01:12 PM2 votes

This is going to become a bigger issue as more champions in that AP Bruiser role are released, I can guarantee you mordekaiser will be simply Built as pure AP mage otherwise.

Slackalicious1/27/2019, 8:23:02 PM2 votes

No, if its not something a marksman can use. Then theyre not going to make it

GrReaper961/27/2019, 4:43:02 PM2 votes

Some might argue Chogath Vladimir Diana can be played as AP bruisers depending on itemization

Hammermancer1/27/2019, 10:53:32 PM2 votes

May I argue that item 3001 item 3068 are decent on ap bruisers, and that item 3025 allows item 3151 to deal more damage? item 3152 gets this to full build with more HP and AP, CDR cap, and about as much resists vs damage items an ad bruiser would have

MorgManBasher1/28/2019, 12:44:26 AM2 votes

item 3152 item 3001 are both decent bruiser AP items, though item 3001 gives no AP but does increase yours and your team's magic damage.

My usual AP bruiser build for Gragas is item 3025 item 3001 item 3157 item 3165 item 1001

Do i think AP bruisers need more options? Yes please. Also item 3027 sucks, please do something with this item.... It's terrible, not even Ryze players are building it

flyingspider541/28/2019, 5:03:11 AM2 votes

In my games as him I usually build him as an assassin, which somebody that I’m too lazy to link said is the same problem Diana has. I agree; more AP bruiser items would be nice.