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Responding to Feedback about the Zyra Update

Zahlfast··4 votes·567 views

Zyra is basically the only champion I play so I have been following the discussion about her potential update with avidity. I wanted to briefly respond to some of the ideas that have been floated about her: the main things being about her plants and passive.

  1. I do NOT want more power loaded into her plants. This is an idea that I have heard often, and I agree that her plants are a very visible aspect of her kit. But this approach to making Zyra distinctive seems misguided.

• I'm not sure it would reward / encourage especially skillful play. Yes you spawn them, you can direct them if getting within auto-attack range doesn't mean instant death. But once spawned they do autonomous targeted damage and are rather un-interactive. It often feels like my plants are most effective because of enemy misplays--e.g. low health adc running past plants to support a jungle gank, enemy continuing to trade or take harass within plant range, etc. I would rather not have my damage output / power budget positioned in such a way that I am relying more on mistakes. Also, my opponent should probably be most rewarded for playing around my root cool down; it's not well telegraphed or easy to keep track of when I have seeds stored. Basically, I'm not a Heimer main and don't want to see Zyra moved in that direction. • Zyra's theme and lore offers so much rich potential that is significantly underutilized and could be developed in other parts of her kit. To me her biggest problem is that, as I think as somebody put it, 'she feels like a generic mage with a plant skin.' I would rather see creative tweaks or changes to the way she uses her Q/E/R that highlight her organic nature rather than 'moar plants.' • It would be nice to have an actual ability to use on W. Maybe a plant spawns when you intersect a Q and E to avoid getting rid of the art assets. But assuming her power were reallocated accordingly I wouldn't be sad if they were just taken out altogether. (RIP jungle Zyra.)

  1. Her passive, for reasons I do not entirely understand, is commonly accepted as trash and in need of ditching. I don't find this to be the case at all.

• I actually find it quite consonant with her theme and lore, which is rather satisfying. • In a close duel mid lane it can mean the difference between trading 1 for 1 or giving up a free kill, and it can be incredibly decisive bot lane and determine whether your adc gets a double kill or you go down 0-2. • Yes, it's hard to hit and there's a delay that causes you to sometimes misfire in the heat of battle. But it's not impossible and the whole point of a skillshot is that it's not guaranteed but rewarding when you land it. • When I play champs who aren't Zyra I really miss being able to influence the battlefield after a death. It's kind of fun. Given that Zyra is one of the most killed supports on average its almost never useless, and is less about encouraging bad play than letting you interact after the inevitable.

  1. Her core weaknesses of "slow, immobile, dies immediately if you get on top of her" should not be removed or mitigated. A number of people have suggested making her less squishy or giving her some sort of healing mechanic. No way. Her weaknesses are clearly defined. If she had that much aoe damage and CC and tankiness she would be broken. (Looking at you Poppy.)

  2. At the same time, it seems that something could be done to enhance her ability to keep threats at bay. Given how fragile you are, how carefully you try to play around not letting enemies get close despite their many means of doing so, it feels rather unrewarding to land everything and still fail. You can get a long distance snare on somebody with a slow plant, build Rylais and continue kiting back with slowing Q+W plants, pop spooky ghosts, land your second snare when it comes off cooldown, and still die to the Udyr, who, without a gap closer, that whole time, was still just 'running at you.'

p.s. Please no cheesy tentacles / terrain interactions.

8 Comments

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

My problem with her passive (and others like it) is how it feels. Most champion's passives (Annie, for example), are another tool in their kit something to help them succeed. Zyra's doesn't do that. It doesn't help her succeed: it makes her better at failing. I'm never GLAD to use her passive: it's a consolation prize, not a tool.

Zahlfast1 votes

I think our difference of opinion comes in how we define the window for success. If your goal is 'stay alive' then clearly her passive does not help Zyra accomplish this. On the other hand if you define success as 'win lane' (as support) or 'at least go even' (in mid) then hitting your passive in a close match can be exactly the thing that tips Zyra to succeed.

Rather than comparing her to champs whose passive is a significant part of their power budget (like Annie), I think it may be useful to ask if it fills out her thematic space (I think so) and whether it provides a rewarding / fun / surprising / interactive gameplay experience. Perhaps this is just idiosyncratic preference but I actually like watching people juke around my plant after I die, remembering to hold the shot, trying my best to predict and aim, and trying to snipe somebody or land important damage. If an enemy is low nearby there is a ton of tension in this moment. A hit gives you that sweet thrill of revenge but even a miss feels impactful.

I would much rather have her current passive like this than something like a Syndra passive. Sure it provides some damage / utility boosts at lvls 9, 13, 16, 18 that you can definitely use while still alive. But she's clearly got a very cohesive kit without it, and independent of the actual numbers it just doesn't feel all that impactful.

Anyway, I just checked my match history and in only 3 out of 40 of my most recent ranked Zyra games was I actually able to avoid being able to use her passive. I'm glad if I don't get to use the ability, but I don't think that means it needs to be changed.

Definitely Bait1 votes

Looking at your 120 ranked Zyra games this season in the average match you get to use the passive 6 times. It's fun and rewarding when you do get to use it. But, the amount of times in an average match it is available and the chances of not getting anything positive off of it are horrible. She might as well have no passive in comparison to a lot of other champions.

A good way to illustrate this is Syndra's passive (Considered to be relatively bad) from level 9 onwards her q does 34.5 + .09% ap extra damage. How many times will Syndra use q from level 9 to when the game ends? Let's say she only uses q 40 times in the match to make the math easy. Let's also assume she has no extra ap aside from a zhonya's hour glass to make the math easy again. The formula should work out to something like 40( 34.5 + (.09 * 100)) or 1,740 total damage before magic resist. Zyra's passive does 440 true damage. So if you die 6 times in a match and have 100% accuracy (Really good easy shots) that will be 2,640 damage. Which is decent but what happens in the case where your having a good game and only die twice? The passive provides 880 damage. Another case is the enemy jukes all 6 of them and you do no damage whatsoever. The Syndra is consistently going to be getting that extra damage. If she's fed it'll provide benefit and if she's losing it'll provide benefit. Zyra's passive will only show benefit if your losing and are consistently able to hit the shot.

She's one of the few champions that I know of that really doesn't get just a constant minor positive from her passive.

Honestly they probably could give her a photosynthesis passive that gives +10% or so base health regen and it'd give more consistent benefits over the course of the match.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

What irks me is that it's an ability that CANNOT be used proactively. Even among other after-death passives (not counting revive passives, which are a different set of abilities), Kog'Maw and Sion can both use their passives to zone or force out cooldowns and attention. Karthus' passive is a whole different beast, in terms of gameplay, and probably shouldn't even be grouped with the others. For Karthus and Sion especially, you can go into a fight planning to use your passive as a tool to help you succeed. Zyra...can't. If you die, you have a 50/50 chance of doing some mediocre damage, but you will never do better than breaking even, since your passive provides nothing but damage.

It just seems odd that Zyra, played perfectly, will never use her passive.

RookPusher1 votes

Do you have a link to intended changes? I play her infrequently at best, but she certainly needs an upgrade.

Zahlfast1 votes

Nothing has been set at this point. I think Riot has said they're still in ideation phase with Zyra. I was more responding to the discussion about Zyra in the "Mid-Season Mage Update" thread in which they asked what people thought about a champion's core identity and biggest problems. (Here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/jQmE1EjE-mid-year-mage-update)

I'm not sure what I would personally like to see because I think she needs a fairly substantial amount of re-thinking to create an interesting and thematically compelling gameplay experience. Generally I would favor giving her an actual ability on W, perhaps changing the plant spawn mechanism (though like I said I think making her more plant-centric is something of a seductive but ultimately fruitless trap), and tweaking her Q/E either in shape / density of effect / how they relate to Zyra to better fit the feel of voraciously consuming nature.

Definitely Bait1 votes

Zyra's passive is relatively easy to hit if you build rylais and die with the slow on enemies. The few times I've played her in recent history it has secured extra kills. It'd still be nice to have something that doesn't require you to die (Odds are when you do die you misplayed or positioned badly). I saw a post that suggested making her passive a heal from plant damage or life time that looked like it'd be cool. Basically the suggestion was make plants or attacks heal for hitting the enemy or make plants stack up a heal for their time alive and pass it to Zyra upon being destroyed.

I'd honestly be happy if they made her plants like heimer turrets. W would work the same but the plants would stay alive longer and a have a health bar that regenerates while Zyra is nearby.

Zyra wouldn't be Zyra without her E - W - Q - W ult combo. Offloading the power budget from her plants would just make her feel like a generic burst mage (Brand specifically since her combo would be something like Snare -> Q -> Ult -> Place whatever attack w becomes in an appropriate spot).

I agree for most of your third point. However, I believe some form of health and / or mana sustain would be fine. As long as it's not too extreme she'll still be weak when badly positioned and die immediately when jumped on (Assassins).

I feel thematically a sustained damage kit would fit her plant identity more than a burst kit. Think vines strangling a target to death or poisoning them.

Plants setup shop and expand their roots so a emphasis on area control / zoning with sustained damage would be amazing. Though following this line of thought would kill her current play style (Burst) .

Your fourth point I kinda covered throughout the post. My ideas for changes would enhance her survival slightly (Particularly the passive change).

I love Zyra as both mid and support but the meta just hasn't made her worth playing in a while. ( Ahri, Zed, Talon, Leblanc, Assasin / Gap closer mids and Lux / Anivia that can be a even or skill matchup) (Support wise she's in a better spot, but there are much better carry supports right now like Brand, Lux, and Annie imo. (Though she is a hilariously good counter to Braum) )

RookPusher1 votes

Zyra's plants need to do a few things if she wants to be unique.

  1. if the enemy can squash them, fine, but there needs to be a tradeoff to that. Damage, a slow, vision. Currently they die after 30 seconds (right?) so they can't stay up forever. Therefore they're just begging to be used with either Q or E. This creates a few problems.

a. Why cast plants at all? All we're doing is giving two steps to one ability. b. in order to use plants, we have to give up Q or E. c. this is why she has CDR built in, because she'd be crap without it.

So here's the rework I'd give her.

P: Wild Bloom - every 45 seconds, a flower blooms within 725 range of Zyra's location at that time. Flowers can be crushed by the enemy.

Q: Deadly Bloom - As it is now, except that after the spikes a posion cloud lingers for 3 seconds afterward dealing half the damage to all units in the cloud (because she could use a wave clear as a mage, and a zone item as a support)

W: Rampant Growth - Plants in range become treants, minions that follow Zyra and attack nearby minions, towers, or champions. These treants have health and damage on par with current spawning minions.

E: As it is now. No change.

R: Stranglethorns - As is it now, except that all flowers on the map become treants and move toward Zyra.

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