Let's talk about Rammus

Unlimited Gin·2/5/2015, 3:22:33 PM·14 votes·4,651 views

This is wordy, so I've bolded important stuff and put several TLDR's scattered around if you're not a strong reader.

I want to talk about Rammus and have a healthy discussion about it. However, I don't want this to be "You nerfed my favorite character bring him back he's never op at all qq" post, or a "a rammus beat me one time nerf him into the dirt" post. I want to talk about what's right, what's wrong, and what's OP, and what's UP about him. I encourage people to politely disagree with me and change my mind about things, or add their own experience.

Disclaimer: I play a little ranked, but it never really struck my fancy. I think I didn't even play my promo matches last year. If you are going to say "Shut up noob you're not even gold," then I beat you to it. Yeah, I'm not gold, but I understand healthy game design and I do think I can provide insight to this particular champion.

Let's start with the Preseason 5 nerf: Here is the patch reasoning:

Rammus's uptime between ganks have made him quite the monster, and we're not even talking about what happens when he finishes his Homeguards. Scaling the cooldown on Rammus' Powerball should give opponents better windows to react to his ganking cadence, while lowering E's shred makes him less of a duelist (how is Rammus dueling!?). That said, we're not quite sure how Rammus will be affected in the preseason. If the Armordillo's eating a healthy portion of struggle salad in 2015, we'll double back to make sure he's staying healthy.

I can say I appreciate and accept the motivation behind this change - Rammus could gank all day, from anywhere. Yes, being mobile is part of his kit, but there is a point where being everywhere at once (cough MS Udyr) can be too frustrating. However, I'd say the unintended effects of the change were more damaging than the intended nerf. With a nearly doubled Q cooldown, Rammus cannot use Q on jungle mobs as often. This means more damage taken, less damage done, and more time spent on a pack, all on a champion who already had a very weak jungle clear.

To make things worse, Q wasn't just a mobility move or a jungle monster damager, it was one of Rammus's crowd control moves. Before the change, Rammus typically would Q in to initiate, taunt someone, throw down an ult if post-6, and then use Q again to catch and CC stragglers fleeing from the fight, or, in bigger fights, to interrupt a channel or peel an enemy. Now with the longer cooldown, it's changed his ganking pattern. I've found that, until very late game, he cannot use Q twice in a fight. That means that he can either initiate well, or have that second CC in a fight.

The end result is that Rammus feels gold starved and ineffective in the early half of the game - he can't gank as often, he can't gank as well, and he can't jungle as well, whereas the patch indicated that they only intended to nerf his frequency and distance of ganks.

One solution that came to mind is that, like Thresh, Rammus's Q could have a shorter cooldown if he hits a champion or a jungle mob, and a longer cooldown if it expires or hits a minion. That would preserve his ability to initiate and still have CC in a fight, preserve his ability to use it to damage mobs, but reduce his ability to powerball all over the map - particularly for ganking multiple lanes in succession and that ever frustrating Rammus retreat.

TLDR for Preseason 5 Nerf: The purpose of the Preseason 5 Q nerf was to slow Rammus's ability to use powerball to get all over the map and gank willy nilly, but it had the unintended consequence of giving him one less CC move to use in a fight and fewer damaging moves to clear jungle camps with. ** I propose the cooldown gets reduced if he hits a champion or a jungle camp, and increased cooldown if he hits only minions or nothing. That would restore the unintended nerfs on his Q and preserve the intended one.**

But Rammus NEEDED nerfed power: Maybe! It's really hard to judge what champions are OP and for what reasons, but I would say that Rammus's ability to throw down two CC's in a fight instead of one isn't why he's OP, if he is/was. Leona certainly gets away with more CC than that, as do Blitz and Thresh. So what is the difference? If people hate playing against Rammus, why is that?

Here are some reasons that you may hate Rammus:

**1) **Taunt is one of the hardest CC's in the game, and it's a point and click. **2) **He can flee very well, and people that are impossible to catch are very frustrating. **3) **For being one of the tankiest and most mobile characters in the game, he does surprising damage, between his armor pen, his reflective armor, his ult, his comically high AP scaling, and his passive that gives him AD.

Let's talk about #1 first. League is moving away from abilities with low counterplay, and taunt's counterplay amounts to "don't get close to Rammus," which is kind of silly, considering the fact that Rammus can get close to anyone he wants. Even other hard, point and click CC like Leona's stun has more counterplay, because you CAN stay away from Leona if you don't let her hit you with skill shots.

So, if you hate Rammus, the nerf to his Q might give you the reprieve from your nemesis that you wanted, but it doesn't fix the reason you hated him, probably. You hated getting unavoidably CC'ed. So, what's the solution? A skill shot is one option, but for a champion who can walk up to point blank, skill shots almost become point-and-click moves; perhaps it could be a ranged skill shot that had better effect at longer range, but I'm not sure if that would fit well into his current kit of "get up in your business." Maybe make it a suppress where Rammus can still move and attack, but getting CC'ed himself ends the taunt. Taunt TLDR: If Rammus had power problems, it wasn't in the amount of CC he had, it was in the low counterplay of Taunt - you just can't avoid it. How to add counterplay? I am not sure... suggestions welcome

Problem number 2, his fleeing, is partially solved by my suggestions to Q in the section above, in my opinion

Problem number 3, his high damage for a Tank. Even though it would make me sad to see it go, if it was deemed that his damage was the core problem, this is an easier fix that can be done while maintaining his core gameplay and utility. Sure, they'd have to account for his reduced Jungle clear, but I would say having a healthy set of initiation and CC is more important to me on Rammus than the unusual amount of damage he can do for such a tanky dude. I mean, I will be sad to see the day where I can't get mega fed as a pure tank, but it's not a necessary part of who he is. One point that comes to mind is his Ultimate. Perhaps take some of the damage out of it and replace it with a slow, or something. Hell, maybe he doesn't need ArPen on his taunt at all - they're already hard CC'ed and taking damage from the spikes and thornmail - do they really need to blow up faster? Maybe have it shred just jungle mobs. However, maybe that's just the way I play Rammus. If other people disagree and think his damage is essential to how he's played, then maybe I'm wrong.

No way, Rammus needs a power buff: Also maybe! I'm running out of time to discuss this, but if Rammus needs a buff, it's not in his Taunt, if that's what you're getting at. If you want taunt to go back to a three second CC, I would disagree. If anything on Rammus needs a buffing, I'd say it's his currently abhorrent jungle clear. If you think some part of Rammus needs a buffing, I'd love to hear your reasoning.

Total TLDR:

  1. The Preseason 5 Q nerf might have been necessary to reduce his map control and gank frequency, but I think he needs his ability to use it for jungle damage and in-fight cc back - give him a reduced CD if he uses powerball to hit a champion or jungle mob, perhaps, or something similar. It has the added bonus of adding conterplay to his Q - it makes using minion shields more potent.
  2. His Taunt has no counterplay, and for the life of me, I don't know how to add that. This is probably the most annoying part about Rammus.

Edit: A lot of people in the comments seem to disagree with this statement above. Specifically, people are saying that his Q isn't guaranteed to get him to the enemy, and that's where the taunt counterplay is. Perhaps they are right - I was simply trying to be balanced about it and presenting the opinion of someone who doesn't like Rammus, and it seems I might have overcompensated and invented a strength that doesn't exist.

  1. He does unusual damage for a Tank... maybe that needs to change? Maybe not?
  2. I'd love to hear a healthy discussion about what you think about Rammus, and I'd love to hear it be thoughtful and balanced, and not "QQ, and good riddance, devil-turtle" or "dingos nerfed my baaaaaby give him baaaack."

51 Comments

FyreNinja2/6/2015, 12:58:48 AM3 votes

Riot, hire this person!

Seriously. Your view of checks and balances is amazing. I like the way that you knowledgeably pointed out that Rammus was nerfed in a way that may have hurt him (Powerball cooldown), and then ALSO identified the fact that this nerf missed for the people who want his click and stun changed. I identify with both groups. I see no reason to nerf a unique ability that allows a tank access to extreme mobility, but I also do not agree with a point and click hard CC that used to ranked among the most frustrating in the game. Therefore, since Riot nerfed the powerball cooldown, I was extremely unhappy, especially since I play ADC and I am forced to attack a target with thornmail and a thornmail-like active ability. My suggestion was to make it a point-click stun where the enemy walks toward the target but does not attack, preserving the hard CC nature of the ability, while negating a small part of his kit.

What do you think?

Even if this thread dies, and is not seen by Riot, you managed to impress at least one member of the community today. Good Work

McAllister2/5/2015, 5:02:16 PM2 votes

Ok.

EDIT:

  1. I agree with your proposed Q change.
  2. There's currently some range on his taunt, yes? Cut it down to melee range. Sure, it'll still be point-and-click, but he's a melee champion: the counterplay against melee champions is to stay away from them, and the fact that they have gap-closers is their counterplay against being relentlessly kited. Plenty of people can CC or dodge the ball.
  3. Eh, he does it weirdly: some in a big AoE over time, some with his slow autos, some on people who attack him. Given that he reflects damage with one of his skills, his other skills have to either hurt a lot or inflict great CC for him to avoid being ignored, and as you note, he's not at the top of the CC pack. I reckon it's in a good place.
  4. He should be every bit as scary as someone like Amumu or Blitz. Amumu can lock down a team for the wombo, and Blitz is the pickmaster: Rammus has just a little bit of both going on, and I'd like to see him more often compared to those two.
tofutime2/5/2015, 4:24:47 PM2 votes

They're trying to compensate for chilling smite. A lot of junglers don't need the CC to catch up to enemies and chilling smite makes it worse. I think it's probably the worst thing to happen to the jungle right now. Giving junglers a free CC when a lot of them don't need it. Now Rammus has an even easier way to catch up to running enemies.

I don't see anything wrong with point and click CC. Some champions have that. With Rammus it's very predictable. Obviously he will taunt someone after he powerballs them. Supports should itemize properly with a mikaels and ADCs can get their own QSS. There's plenty of time for players to see that this is going to happen so it's not like "oh he had no time to react."

I think everything about Rammus was fine last season. The only thing I would change is his ultimate which ups his early ganking potential and just becomes a filler skill late game unless you do some off the wall AP build. Also, if they want to keep it they shouldn't allow it to damage buildings. This gave top Rammus way too much pushing power.

MotherChurch2/5/2015, 6:07:46 PM2 votes

Honestly, they could probably completely revert the nerfs and Rammus would not be overpowered at all in the new jungle.

junglerboy162/5/2015, 9:57:42 PM2 votes

Well executed analysis. I personally love playing off tank Rammus (like item 3725 +item 3075 +item 3190 +item 3001 +item 3157), and I think his high damage is actually a core function of his identity. EVERYONE knows that Rammus is the guy who can stack resists and deal damage from it, and that is his personal niche. Defensive Ball Curl, Powerball, and his R are the three spells that everyone says "yeah, that is totally Rammus", the taunt though, it is a really poor CC. A well designed tank is supposed to be able to soft taunt you on their own due to their CC threat and/or burst, and an actual taunt is a cop out. They really have to replace his taunt in some way, not just because it is low counter play, but because it shows that he was not designed properly to begin with. Make his ult slow and give him some other CC, but a point and click taunt is the definition of poor tank design. Even Shen's taunt is better since it is a skillshot.

BakedLotion2/5/2015, 10:14:01 PM2 votes

I don't know why people suddenly started playing him. He was considered trash for a whole two seasons, and then ONE fucking person plays him, and then everyone thinks hes op. He was never changed in years, (actually, they nerfed his taunt for no reason)

I swear to god if anyone plays any of my mains in LCS, i'm done. Retards are just gonna play them and then ban saying they're op cause a pro player used him.

He has extremely slow clear times, decent-good ganks (not as good as lee sin, duh), and suffers early game.

Meanwhile lee sin is still god and does everything better than him. Who needs a 2 second taunt when u can just slow them, kick them, or in fact, instantly kill them?

Stereo Mime2/6/2015, 12:35:51 AM2 votes

I never understood the complaint about taunt, or why it's duration was nerfed. Keep in mind that this skill is reduced by tenacity, and has to actually get to the target. Using his Q to get to the desired enemy is rather difficult if the enemy team is even half aware, and with the vast number of slows/hard cc on almost every champion, your only sure bet is to come from a blind side and flash onto them.

The one single thing he actually does have going for him is his damage, but it sure as hell does not come from his ultimate. It comes, at least when I play him, from the bonus AD he gets from defensive curl(and items) as applied to his basic attacks. Once you are in the fight you will not be walking around trying to keep the entire enemy team within the range of your ult. What you will be doing is taunting the squishiest enemy within range that is either a huge damage or cc threat, and trying to kill them. When you have at least 1 good armor item, sometimes 2, and a maxed defensive curl, the bonus damage from his passive is enormous, and like me, if you build a phantom dancer, or some other attack speed item, you can often 100-0 squishies before the taunt comes off. The ultimate is just a scary thing to pop and cause confusion. It does respectable damage if they take the entire ult, but more often than not the ult is used to help push waves, or to take a tower. I am sure the only reason people get mad is because they don't expect to be taken 1 v 1 by a rammus, and when they try to run away and cant, they thinks its unfair. Thats just funny haha.

Rammus can do ok against some matchups, but for the most part he has way too much trouble early game, whether you are in the jungle or not. His ability to actually catch and lock down his enemy targets is too difficult to be worth the pick if you are going for a ganker/roamer. I mostly play him as a super tanky fighter/late game pusher but you have to survive till late game.

If anything, I would like to see the rollerball cooldown reduced, and/or a revival of the 3 second taunt, and/or a massive reduction in mana costs so that he can use his spells more frequently without a blue buff.

YOU BEEN WARNED2/6/2015, 3:09:47 AM2 votes

I've read 25% of the post so far, already upvoted. Looking like a veeeery good post.

TotalJerk2/5/2015, 7:32:56 PM1 votes

If you wanna suggest that a champion that isn't Lee Sin or a FotM has any toxic or unfair strengths, and you expect a reasonable number of people to actually consider and discuss your reasoning, you've come to the wrong board.

Gunpoint2/6/2015, 3:00:40 PM1 votes

Rammus is good, he brings a lot to a fight. He zones the enemy carries for days

MrSlowDie2/5/2015, 10:08:52 PM1 votes

this reminds me, I stop playing rammus since his nerf. not because it destroyed him, but because I love his fast gank power. "Bot lane can ganked? I'll be there in seconds", the CD nerf make it harder. Now I play shaco and panth mostly, because they can react fast to an opportunity.

Kingsgrave2/6/2015, 10:49:57 AM1 votes

I would really like his kit to actually scale more with Total AD and Armor and actually deal physical damage

Q could easily be Total AD scaling and physical damage with the damage and ratio scaling based on distance traveled for added counterplay R could easily be Physical Damage + an Armor Ratio

Duobyte2/6/2015, 2:10:42 PM1 votes

Rammus, Fiddle and Amumu have been the most consistent junglers through out the season 4 and are still 52+% win rate dispite the changes. The current problem with rammus is that he has to gank because his clearing sucks hard and his ganking tools are apsurdly strong and easy to use.

Spacesuit Spiff2/6/2015, 12:56:30 AM1 votes

Rammus is a cool champ that can do well as a niche pick. Unfortunately, I only ever see him picked by people who have no idea how to jungle, because he seems easy to them. Last Rammus I saw died 6 times during laning phase, and rushed a GA because he thought that would make him die less (oh the insanity of provisionals).

Grouchy Poro2/5/2015, 5:46:25 PM1 votes

I disagree with the 'taunt not fitting him' bit but yes, it does have low counterplay. I'll admit (I still play Rammus Jungle), after you have the damage to back you up you powerball into someone and land your combo. Follow them if they run, laugh if they stay to fight.

The taunt is fitting though. He's a badass that doesn't care what you think and if it takes a hurtful slur targeted directly at you to make you fight him, then he'll damn well insult you and your mother. I always liked that about Rammus; he sort of gave this respectable, 'come at me' vibe and if you don't come at him he'll come at you. Scrappy little turtle he is.

Ale non è male2/5/2015, 5:16:04 PM1 votes

The Q nerf was intended also for jungle. With the new smite system , a very low CD Q like the previous one would have make his clear surprisingly good for a tank and his early game too strong If they see Rammus is too weak and need help, they could always change a bit Q CD to something like 14/13/12/11/10, but that's pretty much all

Hawkefire2/5/2015, 6:27:03 PM1 votes

Alright, so here is my deal with Rammus.

I personally play Rammus top lane now, and in fact I greatly enjoy playing him top lane (a lot of people really underestimate how good he is up there, although he does have his weaknesses to things like AP mages, such as lissandra, AP bruisers, such as Maokai and Rumble)

I greatly enjoy playing him top lane, it is very fun, and he has some well defined strengths and weaknesses that your opponent (and yourself) can take advantage of.

Frankly, right now I don't think Rammus really needs any buffs, except to his Q, and the ONLY (and I really do mean ONLY) thing that his Q could use would be a cooldown buff for when he uses it on monsters/creeps, this is because jungle rammus (especially with the jungle changes) has to use his Q to be able to clear the mobs in his jungle during the early game (and partially into midgame as well) otherwise the jungle mobs simply destroy him and he is forced to go back too early. But when he uses his Q to clear jungle mobs he cannot use it to gank, and a Rammus without his Q cannot gank...it just wont work (I mean I guess it can when the enemy is really REALLY being stupid, but still).

Your point on his Taunt (his E)....I disagree. While the counterplay is "don't get near him" it actually works in the case of Rammus, and here is why:

Rammus has only 1 form of gapcloser built into his kit, and that would be his powerball.

His powerball has some pretty specific and potent weaknesses to it, such as:

It can be body blocked (a friendly champ can dive in front of Rammus and stop him dead in his tracks, or Rammus could make a mistake and clip an enemy minion)

His powerball is a movement speed steroid, this means it isn't a hard gap closer (IE, it isn't a dash like Lee Sin's second Q), which also means it is counterable by slows (such as red buff, ever try chasing a skilled Kalista with a runaans + redbuff? You aren't going to catch her on your own without flash...ever, you can trust me on that one)

His powerball has a wind up time (as in, he doesn't hit full speed immediately), this gives you more time to react against him, thus allowing you to slow him, CC him, or get some minions/friendly champs in between you and him.

All that combined, and it actually shows that it is kinda difficult to get to the enemy that you want to CC.

Sure you could flank them, but that is counterable by good ward coverage and not overextending off on your own(and this is one of the reasons why he was so good in soloQ, it takes a little bit of coordination to stop a good Rammus)

His damage for a tank is fine. In fact, it is solely because of that damage that I feel that Rammus is viable. If you take away his damage, then you can simply ignore him (this is one of the problems with most of the true tank champions, such as Nautilus, once Nautilus has blown his CC, the enemy can virtually ignore him because he isn't going to hurt them and they know it). Rammus on the other hand, does just enough damage that you cannot ignore his presence in teamfights. You actually have to acknowledge that he is there, and that he actually hurts. However, his damage isn't too overbearing either because you can still take him down, and he is very susceptible to CC.

Just my 2 cents.

Tin Tarantino2/5/2015, 6:40:11 PM1 votes

Ok

Major Sparkles2/5/2015, 7:11:31 PM1 votes

Rammus love #2015