Let's talk about Rammus

Unlimited Gin·Feb 5, 2015·14 votes·4,651 views

This is wordy, so I've bolded important stuff and put several TLDR's scattered around if you're not a strong reader.

I want to talk about Rammus and have a healthy discussion about it. However, I don't want this to be "You nerfed my favorite character bring him back he's never op at all qq" post, or a "a rammus beat me one time nerf him into the dirt" post. I want to talk about what's right, what's wrong, and what's OP, and what's UP about him. I encourage people to politely disagree with me and change my mind about things, or add their own experience.

Disclaimer: I play a little ranked, but it never really struck my fancy. I think I didn't even play my promo matches last year. If you are going to say "Shut up noob you're not even gold," then I beat you to it. Yeah, I'm not gold, but I understand healthy game design and I do think I can provide insight to this particular champion.

Let's start with the Preseason 5 nerf: Here is the patch reasoning:

Rammus's uptime between ganks have made him quite the monster, and we're not even talking about what happens when he finishes his Homeguards. Scaling the cooldown on Rammus' Powerball should give opponents better windows to react to his ganking cadence, while lowering E's shred makes him less of a duelist (how is Rammus dueling!?). That said, we're not quite sure how Rammus will be affected in the preseason. If the Armordillo's eating a healthy portion of struggle salad in 2015, we'll double back to make sure he's staying healthy.

I can say I appreciate and accept the motivation behind this change - Rammus could gank all day, from anywhere. Yes, being mobile is part of his kit, but there is a point where being everywhere at once (cough MS Udyr) can be too frustrating. However, I'd say the unintended effects of the change were more damaging than the intended nerf. With a nearly doubled Q cooldown, Rammus cannot use Q on jungle mobs as often. This means more damage taken, less damage done, and more time spent on a pack, all on a champion who already had a very weak jungle clear.

To make things worse, Q wasn't just a mobility move or a jungle monster damager, it was one of Rammus's crowd control moves. Before the change, Rammus typically would Q in to initiate, taunt someone, throw down an ult if post-6, and then use Q again to catch and CC stragglers fleeing from the fight, or, in bigger fights, to interrupt a channel or peel an enemy. Now with the longer cooldown, it's changed his ganking pattern. I've found that, until very late game, he cannot use Q twice in a fight. That means that he can either initiate well, or have that second CC in a fight.

The end result is that Rammus feels gold starved and ineffective in the early half of the game - he can't gank as often, he can't gank as well, and he can't jungle as well, whereas the patch indicated that they only intended to nerf his frequency and distance of ganks.

One solution that came to mind is that, like Thresh, Rammus's Q could have a shorter cooldown if he hits a champion or a jungle mob, and a longer cooldown if it expires or hits a minion. That would preserve his ability to initiate and still have CC in a fight, preserve his ability to use it to damage mobs, but reduce his ability to powerball all over the map - particularly for ganking multiple lanes in succession and that ever frustrating Rammus retreat.

TLDR for Preseason 5 Nerf: The purpose of the Preseason 5 Q nerf was to slow Rammus's ability to use powerball to get all over the map and gank willy nilly, but it had the unintended consequence of giving him one less CC move to use in a fight and fewer damaging moves to clear jungle camps with. ** I propose the cooldown gets reduced if he hits a champion or a jungle camp, and increased cooldown if he hits only minions or nothing. That would restore the unintended nerfs on his Q and preserve the intended one.**

But Rammus NEEDED nerfed power: Maybe! It's really hard to judge what champions are OP and for what reasons, but I would say that Rammus's ability to throw down two CC's in a fight instead of one isn't why he's OP, if he is/was. Leona certainly gets away with more CC than that, as do Blitz and Thresh. So what is the difference? If people hate playing against Rammus, why is that?

Here are some reasons that you may hate Rammus:

**1) **Taunt is one of the hardest CC's in the game, and it's a point and click. **2) **He can flee very well, and people that are impossible to catch are very frustrating. **3) **For being one of the tankiest and most mobile characters in the game, he does surprising damage, between his armor pen, his reflective armor, his ult, his comically high AP scaling, and his passive that gives him AD.

Let's talk about #1 first. League is moving away from abilities with low counterplay, and taunt's counterplay amounts to "don't get close to Rammus," which is kind of silly, considering the fact that Rammus can get close to anyone he wants. Even other hard, point and click CC like Leona's stun has more counterplay, because you CAN stay away from Leona if you don't let her hit you with skill shots.

So, if you hate Rammus, the nerf to his Q might give you the reprieve from your nemesis that you wanted, but it doesn't fix the reason you hated him, probably. You hated getting unavoidably CC'ed. So, what's the solution? A skill shot is one option, but for a champion who can walk up to point blank, skill shots almost become point-and-click moves; perhaps it could be a ranged skill shot that had better effect at longer range, but I'm not sure if that would fit well into his current kit of "get up in your business." Maybe make it a suppress where Rammus can still move and attack, but getting CC'ed himself ends the taunt. Taunt TLDR: If Rammus had power problems, it wasn't in the amount of CC he had, it was in the low counterplay of Taunt - you just can't avoid it. How to add counterplay? I am not sure... suggestions welcome

Problem number 2, his fleeing, is partially solved by my suggestions to Q in the section above, in my opinion

Problem number 3, his high damage for a Tank. Even though it would make me sad to see it go, if it was deemed that his damage was the core problem, this is an easier fix that can be done while maintaining his core gameplay and utility. Sure, they'd have to account for his reduced Jungle clear, but I would say having a healthy set of initiation and CC is more important to me on Rammus than the unusual amount of damage he can do for such a tanky dude. I mean, I will be sad to see the day where I can't get mega fed as a pure tank, but it's not a necessary part of who he is. One point that comes to mind is his Ultimate. Perhaps take some of the damage out of it and replace it with a slow, or something. Hell, maybe he doesn't need ArPen on his taunt at all - they're already hard CC'ed and taking damage from the spikes and thornmail - do they really need to blow up faster? Maybe have it shred just jungle mobs. However, maybe that's just the way I play Rammus. If other people disagree and think his damage is essential to how he's played, then maybe I'm wrong.

No way, Rammus needs a power buff: Also maybe! I'm running out of time to discuss this, but if Rammus needs a buff, it's not in his Taunt, if that's what you're getting at. If you want taunt to go back to a three second CC, I would disagree. If anything on Rammus needs a buffing, I'd say it's his currently abhorrent jungle clear. If you think some part of Rammus needs a buffing, I'd love to hear your reasoning.

Total TLDR:

The Preseason 5 Q nerf might have been necessary to reduce his map control and gank frequency, but I think he needs his ability to use it for jungle damage and in-fight cc back - give him a reduced CD if he uses powerball to hit a champion or jungle mob, perhaps, or something similar. It has the added bonus of adding conterplay to his Q - it makes using minion shields more potent.
His Taunt has no counterplay, and for the life of me, I don't know how to add that. This is probably the most annoying part about Rammus.

Edit: A lot of people in the comments seem to disagree with this statement above. Specifically, people are saying that his Q isn't guaranteed to get him to the enemy, and that's where the taunt counterplay is. Perhaps they are right - I was simply trying to be balanced about it and presenting the opinion of someone who doesn't like Rammus, and it seems I might have overcompensated and invented a strength that doesn't exist.

He does unusual damage for a Tank... maybe that needs to change? Maybe not?
I'd love to hear a healthy discussion about what you think about Rammus, and I'd love to hear it be thoughtful and balanced, and not "QQ, and good riddance, devil-turtle" or "dingos nerfed my baaaaaby give him baaaack."

51 Comments

FyreNinjaFeb 6, 20153 votes

Riot, hire this person!

Seriously. Your view of checks and balances is amazing. I like the way that you knowledgeably pointed out that Rammus was nerfed in a way that may have hurt him (Powerball cooldown), and then ALSO identified the fact that this nerf missed for the people who want his click and stun changed. I identify with both groups. I see no reason to nerf a unique ability that allows a tank access to extreme mobility, but I also do not agree with a point and click hard CC that used to ranked among the most frustrating in the game. Therefore, since Riot nerfed the powerball cooldown, I was extremely unhappy, especially since I play ADC and I am forced to attack a target with thornmail and a thornmail-like active ability. My suggestion was to make it a point-click stun where the enemy walks toward the target but does not attack, preserving the hard CC nature of the ability, while negating a small part of his kit.

What do you think?

Even if this thread dies, and is not seen by Riot, you managed to impress at least one member of the community today. Good Work

Ale non è maleFeb 6, 20151 votes

... especially since I play ADC and I am forced to attack a target with thornmail and a thornmail-like active ability.My suggestion was to make it a point-click stun where the enemy walks toward the target but does not attack, preserving the hard CC nature of the ability, while negating a small part of his kit.

What do you think?

I read it like this " I play ADC, so remove the part of the kit that doesn't allow me to ignore Rammus and suicide myself so he doesn't counter me anymore"

Come, on, seriously, if ADCs are allowed to ignore what would be a champ picked to counter them (that still has to get to 325 range distance to be able to taunt them, which means that you can counterplay the taunt keeping the proper distance by escaping or having proper peel from your frontline), then what would be the reason for Rammus to exist? Hit a random Q and then see that AD damage dealers proceed to ignore him and to live as usual, hoping that in that brief time of the Q knockback(something like 0.75 seconds) some heavy farm snowball assassin would just carry him with their ulti( cough Yasuo cough Kata cough) ?

Riot has weakened his taunt over time, and has reduced the possibilities for rammus to activate it because of the bigger CD on the powerball, I don't think ADCs main can really complain at this point

tofutimeFeb 5, 20152 votes

They're trying to compensate for chilling smite. A lot of junglers don't need the CC to catch up to enemies and chilling smite makes it worse. I think it's probably the worst thing to happen to the jungle right now. Giving junglers a free CC when a lot of them don't need it. Now Rammus has an even easier way to catch up to running enemies.

I don't see anything wrong with point and click CC. Some champions have that. With Rammus it's very predictable. Obviously he will taunt someone after he powerballs them. Supports should itemize properly with a mikaels and ADCs can get their own QSS. There's plenty of time for players to see that this is going to happen so it's not like "oh he had no time to react."

I think everything about Rammus was fine last season. The only thing I would change is his ultimate which ups his early ganking potential and just becomes a filler skill late game unless you do some off the wall AP build. Also, if they want to keep it they shouldn't allow it to damage buildings. This gave top Rammus way too much pushing power.

Done25Feb 5, 20155 votes

{quoted}

They're trying to compensate for chilling smite. A lot of junglers don't need the CC to catch up to enemies and chilling smite makes it worse. I think it's probably the worst thing to happen to the jungle right now. Giving junglers a free CC when a lot of them don't need it. Now Rammus has an even easier way to catch up to running enemies.

I don't see anything wrong with point and click CC. Some champions have that. With Rammus it's very predictable. Obviously he will taunt someone after he powerballs them. Supports should itemize properly with a mikaels and ADCs can get their own QSS. There's plenty of time for players to see that this is going to happen so it's not like "oh he had no time to react."

I think everything about Rammus was fine last season. The only thing I would change is his ultimate which ups his early ganking potential and just becomes a filler skill late game unless you do some off the wall AP build. Also, if they want to keep it they shouldn't allow it to damage buildings. This gave top Rammus way too much pushing power.

I agree with everything but the removing tremor damage from towers. Most tanks are extreamly bad at damaging towers. They lack the safe range of a mage and don't build AD like Fighters. To make things worse, Rammus has some pretty damn crappy wave clear unless he has a big chunk of AP to power his Q.

tofutimeFeb 5, 20151 votes

Yea but that should be his weakness. Tanks should not be able to push down towers quickly because then they becomes this unkillable splitpushing machine. This is why Rammus top lane was a thing and why it was kinda lame to play against. Rammus to me always belongs in the jungle and to act as a powerballing ganker. Wave clear is bad on most tanks which is why they usually buy sunfire cape. Sunfire cape is a really good buy on rammus regardless and synergizes well with him.

I just don't want to see rammus go into a lane and I believe Riot will nerf him if top lane rammus ever becomes popular again.

Done25Feb 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yea but that should be his weakness. Tanks should not be able to push down towers quickly because then they becomes this unkillable splitpushing machine. This is why Rammus top lane was a thing and why it was kinda lame to play against. Rammus to me always belongs in the jungle and to act as a powerballing ganker. Wave clear is bad on most tanks which is why they usually buy sunfire cape. Sunfire cape is a really good buy on rammus regardless and synergizes well with him.

I just don't want to see rammus go into a lane and I believe Riot will nerf him if top lane rammus ever becomes popular again.

Here's the problem with any champion that can't damage towers. You don't win the game by going 50/0/50. You do it by killing the enemy nexus. And to do that, you need to be able to take towers down. The new portal helps, but it got nerfed pretty hard damae wise after it came out. It also gets caught on minions. Which Rammus is bad at killing.

And there is nothing wrong with Rammus top lane. He has no poke, he has no sustain, and he has NO wave clear. His Q CD is now huge at rank one. Shove the wave and force him to try and last hit under tower.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20151 votes

Yeah, I'd say that, if rammus is a splitpushing threat, it's probably a jungle rammus that has decided to move to top after the lane phase is over. Top Rammus is hard. I like it and do it sometimes, but it's never felt unusually powerful. His deep-in-enemy-territory tower pushing may be over the top, but that's happening after the lane phase anyway, probably, so he could have started in any lane.

Done25Feb 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unlimited Gin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7ccxZfik,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-05T17:28:16.132+0000)

Yeah, I'd say that, if rammus is a splitpushing threat, it's probably a jungle rammus that has decided to move to top after the lane phase is over. Top Rammus is hard. I like it and do it sometimes, but it's never felt unusually powerful. His deep-in-enemy-territory tower pushing may be over the top, but that's happening after the lane phase anyway, probably, so he could have started in any lane.

And there is nothing wrong with split pushing. It's there to punish people who 5 man group in mid and never leave to keep their lanes in check.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20152 votes

They're trying to compensate for chilling smite.

Thank you for the constructive comments!

Yes, I had not accounted for Chilling Smite. Truth be told, I'm still figuring out how to Rammus right in S5 and had been trying purple smite to counteract his very rough jungling experience.

I would say that Chilling Smite might not be a healthy addition to the game. If many junglers become OP with an added crowd control button, I'd rather see the Junglers themselves preserved and the added crowd control removed. That way, these characters aren't suddenly constrained to the jungle role, and rebalanced for a "new moveset." Moreover, it seems like Rammus got a little more of a nerf out of this than other strong chase junglers. Lee Sin has enough chase and got more, Jarvan has good CC, and still kept it with the patch. Amumu got nerfed, but it was a damage nerf - the amount of CC he has didn't change. Rammus effectively lost the ability to use two powerballs in a fight in exchange for a 75 second cooldown slow.

I don't see anything wrong with point and click CC.

I don't think it's the end of the world, either, but it is potentially one place that could be frustrating for people playing against Rammus. Lots of champions have it, but I don't think Riot likes that they have it (hence Scion and upcoming Taric reworks), and while it is predictable, it's still unavoidable. Again, not the biggest design problem in the game, but the way the game is heading, most skills have a way to avoid it, and Mikaels and QSS are for when you inevitably and occasionally fail to.

The only thing I would change is his ultimate

Yes, it adds to his unusually high damage problem. It makes him quite a fearsome ganker, and maybe having loads of CC should be enough. Late game I think it does do a deceptive amount of damage, but you're right, it feels more like a button to push because it's there - like a filler - instead of a decision to make.

I wouldn't cry if the ability to damage towers was taken away, but I think it's a nice feature on him. I think part of the problem is that he's good at killing a tower with it and then powerballing away. If the CD on a only-for-funning powerball was increased, perhaps Rammus players would have to ask themselves if pushing top was a safe decision more often, instead of doing it whenever Tremors is up.

McAllisterFeb 5, 20152 votes

Ok.

EDIT:

I agree with your proposed Q change.
There's currently some range on his taunt, yes? Cut it down to melee range. Sure, it'll still be point-and-click, but he's a melee champion: the counterplay against melee champions is to stay away from them, and the fact that they have gap-closers is their counterplay against being relentlessly kited. Plenty of people can CC or dodge the ball.
Eh, he does it weirdly: some in a big AoE over time, some with his slow autos, some on people who attack him. Given that he reflects damage with one of his skills, his other skills have to either hurt a lot or inflict great CC for him to avoid being ignored, and as you note, he's not at the top of the CC pack. I reckon it's in a good place.
He should be every bit as scary as someone like Amumu or Blitz. Amumu can lock down a team for the wombo, and Blitz is the pickmaster: Rammus has just a little bit of both going on, and I'd like to see him more often compared to those two.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20156 votes

It's basically melee. It's pretty minimal. The issue is that his powerball can get you into melee with anyone. I don't think it's the most unhealthy moveset, I'm just trying to account for the fact that I'm a rabid Rammus fanboy and maybe I gloss over his design problems.

As for his damage, maybe the problem is that it's all deceptive damage. Reflected damage, a slow AoE dot, invisible ArPen, and unusually strong, but slow and unreliable auto. Still, I like his damage, but see fanboy comment above.

Edit: I would agree that I'd like to see him a scary as Amumu or Blitz. It feels like Amumu was in a very similar position at the start of this preseason - high mobility, high cc potential, okay damage - and that's why I feel that Rammus Q-in-fight nerf was unintended. They looked at both champions, thought they both needed adjusting, and I'd be very surprised if they came to the conclusion that Rammus needed less in-fight-CC and Amumu did not.

McAllisterFeb 5, 20153 votes

Is Xin's CC unhealthy, or Riven's? It's hard to stay out of melee with those two, and essentially impossible to avoid CC once they're up close. At least ballin' Rammus respects slows. I'm glad you acknowledge your bias, but it's fine.

I don't know, is the damage deceptive? The ult is loud and visible, the only subtle thing about it is that each tick isn't enough damage to make it worth repositioning most of the time, so it ends up dealing more damage than Nunu's.* Reflected damage? He's covered with spikes, it's much better than Thornmail. I will agree about the ArPen and the auto, though. The ArPen could disappear for all I care, and as for the auto, the only thing to do about it would be to change the automation. What does he do, headbutts and swipes with his stubby paws? It just doesn't look like it hurts.

If they removed his ArPen and threw in the cooldown-reducer on his Q, let's pretend he's neither stronger nor weaker. What sort of minor buff would you give him, or would you reckon he's fine even if his play rate is low?

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20151 votes

I think I like the idea of removing the ArPen and adding the CD reducer on Q. ArPen might be the only real problem area, if it even is a problem, simply because the average player that doesn't use Rammus might not have any idea that it is happening. While we're at it, maybe make DBC have a more spiky animation, a la MechaRammus animation. Most of us know it has reflected damage, but I'm all for visual clarity.

I'd honestly be happy with those changes - even if his winrate isn't at the golden 50%, but if there's a wishlist, I'd like to see him a little less mana-and-health starved in the early jungle. His clear can still be slow, but I feel like those bars are always empty. If Bluebuff gets stolen (and a good counterjungler will see Rammus pick and immediately do that, and there's very little I can do to stop him), I'm in a really rough place mana-wise for a looong time.

Other wishlist buff - give me King Rammus. That totally counts as a gameplay buff.

McAllisterFeb 5, 20155 votes

Dear Riot,

Please give Rammus a cooldown reduction if his Q hits a champion or jungle monster, remove the armor penetration from his taunt, and reduce the mana costs on his skills, especially the defensive ball curl. Ok? Ok.

Sincere Regards, McAllister and Unlimited Gin

manbearswineFeb 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Dear Riot,

Please give Rammus a cooldown reduction if his Q hits a champion or jungle monster, remove the armor penetration from his taunt, and reduce the mana costs on his skills, especially the defensive ball curl. Ok? Ok.

Sincere Regards, McAllister and Unlimited Gin

It's not armor pen,It's armor shred,very different things,especially for a tank,his damage output is fine.

Rammus doesn't need tradeoffs for buffs,and in fact his armor shred fits very well on him as a tank,meaning he can sort of mark a target for his team to deal more damage to,he is rarely picked/banned in solo que and competitive,might as well just throw some buffs at him,worst case scenario lee won't be the most played jungler for a few weeks.

MotherChurchFeb 5, 20152 votes

Honestly, they could probably completely revert the nerfs and Rammus would not be overpowered at all in the new jungle.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20151 votes

Yes, it felt odd. They seemed to think he was going to be a powerhouse in the new jungle, but I feel like it didn't benefit him as much as they believed it was going to. I'm a bit disappointed the nerf came out pre-emptively and we didn't get to see how he did in there.

TofuBots above mentioned that it may be the new Chiling Smite that they're accounting for, but I see that more as a problem with Chilling Smite than with Rammus; It's easier to balance one item than every jungler. I'm worried Chilling Smite will be next year's DFG: removed because they had to balance junglers around it. Moreover, other strong chase strong CC junglers did NOT have their chase and cc potential nerfed to account for Chilling Smite.

junglerboy16Feb 5, 20152 votes

Well executed analysis. I personally love playing off tank Rammus (like item 3725 + item 3075 + item 3190 + item 3001 + item 3157 ), and I think his high damage is actually a core function of his identity. EVERYONE knows that Rammus is the guy who can stack resists and deal damage from it, and that is his personal niche. Defensive Ball Curl, Powerball, and his R are the three spells that everyone says "yeah, that is totally Rammus", the taunt though, it is a really poor CC. A well designed tank is supposed to be able to soft taunt you on their own due to their CC threat and/or burst, and an actual taunt is a cop out. They really have to replace his taunt in some way, not just because it is low counter play, but because it shows that he was not designed properly to begin with. Make his ult slow and give him some other CC, but a point and click taunt is the definition of poor tank design. Even Shen's taunt is better since it is a skillshot.

Ale non è maleFeb 5, 20152 votes

Nope. The taunt is there to not allow enemies to ignore completely rammus since the enemy know as well the things you mentioned and without a consistent CC they would never go to face Rammus, if not after having killed anyone else. And taunt is perfect for him because it allows him to pick his specific target to take his target almost out of the fights at the proper moment A slow on ulti + generic CC is the definition of a bad design on a champ like Rammus, if anything

junglerboy16Feb 6, 20151 votes

Why on earth did you say "Nope." and then proceed to explain exactly why you agree with everything I just said? I was only making a suggestion for him, and taunt is everything bad about Rammus. The fact that without such a cop out reason to "focus the tank" his kit is bad in itself proves my point exactly. I really don't see how you are disagreeing with me here other than that you only saw half of my suggestion. I said a slow on ult and then add other real CC to his kit. Not just a slow on ult and change the taunt to a stun, but something significant that makes you want to get Rammus out of the fight.

Ale non è maleFeb 6, 20151 votes

Lol wut? I don't agree with you at all. Your argumentations about why Rammus should have a different kind of CC instead than taunt make little sense A slow on ulti + some other generic CC on his kit wouldn't allow Rammus to accomplish his goal, which is to pick a single target, an heavy AD damage dealer most of the time (due to passive, Thornmail) , and make him irrelevant in a fight for quite some time to allow your team to defeat the enemy team Rammus having generic CC would mean that even if the generic new CC on Rammus hit the target, after the expire of CC duration, no one right in his mind would focus or care about Rammus, that would represent a sitting duck for the rest of the fight until his Q come off CD again. And enemies that coordinate well each other could just save the Rammus target from this new generic CC, allowing the enemy team to ignore Rammus for the whole remaining fight making him completely useless. If Rammus hit his target with Q or is capable to get pretty close to him on a fight, his target shouldn't be allowed to ignore Rammus, and taunt is the best form of CC to accomplish that goal. The way to avoid Rammus taunting and counterplay him are there, taunt range is a measly 325 range, so avoid rammus engage and enemy team engage or hainvg your frontline peeling properly and Rammus taunt is shut down When you originally said that

Defensive Ball Curl, Powerball, and his R are the three spells that everyone says "yeah, that is totally Rammus"

You are obviously right, but the taunt define Rammus as much as his other skills , since can be clearly see how all of them are connected in the Rammus pattern. You get on an enemmy with Q, taunt him and activate the defensive ball curl), and at the same time press R for further damage. And if enemies are escaping from the ulkti, you try to hit them again with Q to keep them in range (rammus ulti range is short too, it has 300 range)

Tl;DR Taunt is GOOD design on Rammus, generic CC is BAD design on Rammus

junglerboy16Feb 6, 20151 votes

You don't seem to get what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying just give him a CC like a stun or something instead, I'm saying the fact that his pattern requires a taunt at all is inherently bad. The fact that nobody would ever want to or need to focus down Rammus except when taunted is bad design. I'm not saying they should up and remove it entirely, but a real tank is supposed to be enough of a threat outside of forcing you to attack them that they feel the need to focus you. Think of Cho'gath: his ult is one of the best soft taunts in the game, because EVERYONE knows that you want to kill him to make him lose stacks. The fact that there is no fall back pattern for Rammus outside of taunting somebody is exactly what is so bad about it. His kit should be good enough on its own that he would be a worthy target outside of literally forcing himself to be a target. I don't really care how they compensate removing it, but Taunt, even though it currently works on his kit, is bad game design either way.

Ale non è maleFeb 6, 20151 votes

The fact that nobody would ever want to or need to focus down Rammus except when taunted is bad design.

...

His kit should be good enough on its own that he would be a worthy target

Eh? He is a tank, he is not a good target by definition for anyone That's where the core of your argumentation fails. He isn't a good target, so he has to get a way to NOT be ignored. Other tanky champs got different kind of tools to get that (Mundo health regen or Malph knock-up for example), Rammus, looking at everything else got in the kit, got a taunt instead The same Cho'Gath example is bad, Cho'Gath can be not only a tanky champ, but also a relevant ranged damage dealer once he gets stacks, that's why he becomes a good target (alongside the fact that he also become less tanky once he loses stacks) And the fallback pattern argumentation for taunt removal/change is a bad argumentation too, because the "lack of fallback pattern" depends on Q, not on taunt. If Rammus fail Q he can never get in range for enemies nor set-up for his own damage or his allies damage; the taunt is the cream on top of the cake when, AFTER you hit Q, you keep an important target busy on facing you. And since Q is so powerful, and no one would think to remove power from it on Rammus, he can/should not have some other kind of powerful fallback pattern. His "new" E could be changed and become a relevant fallback pattern if you took power out of Q - which would be stupid since it is his signature move -, otherwise you would just make another champ ala Lee Sin with a kit where he can do 100000 milion things

So, to make you understand, TAUNT ON THE ACTUAL RAMMUS KIT IS GOOD DESIGN

Side note: If you are searching for an ability in his kit which is not completely representative of Rammus and could be enhanced to make his playstyle some kind of different giving him some kind of different pattern, don't look at taunt, but look at his ulti instead...

BakedLotionFeb 5, 20152 votes

I don't know why people suddenly started playing him. He was considered trash for a whole two seasons, and then ONE fucking person plays him, and then everyone thinks hes op. He was never changed in years, (actually, they nerfed his taunt for no reason)

I swear to god if anyone plays any of my mains in LCS, i'm done. Retards are just gonna play them and then ban saying they're op cause a pro player used him.

He has extremely slow clear times, decent-good ganks (not as good as lee sin, duh), and suffers early game.

Meanwhile lee sin is still god and does everything better than him. Who needs a 2 second taunt when u can just slow them, kick them, or in fact, instantly kill them?

Ale non è maleFeb 5, 20151 votes

He was played because the top junglers not named lee sin were nerfed (and these were early game oriented picks like Elise, for example) and Rammus emerged as silent niche pick that then exploded late in S4, also because he naturally countered ADCs that were starting to dominating games, especially some very popular AA based ADC (cough Tristana cough) And back to pre Q CD nerf, his clear times weren't slow at all, at least not among the tanky junglers... maybe only Amumu was on par/ahead of him, other tank junglers were much more in trouble 8do you remember Sejuani situation, for example?)

Stereo MimeFeb 6, 20152 votes

I never understood the complaint about taunt, or why it's duration was nerfed. Keep in mind that this skill is reduced by tenacity, and has to actually get to the target. Using his Q to get to the desired enemy is rather difficult if the enemy team is even half aware, and with the vast number of slows/hard cc on almost every champion, your only sure bet is to come from a blind side and flash onto them.

The one single thing he actually does have going for him is his damage, but it sure as hell does not come from his ultimate. It comes, at least when I play him, from the bonus AD he gets from defensive curl(and items) as applied to his basic attacks. Once you are in the fight you will not be walking around trying to keep the entire enemy team within the range of your ult. What you will be doing is taunting the squishiest enemy within range that is either a huge damage or cc threat, and trying to kill them. When you have at least 1 good armor item, sometimes 2, and a maxed defensive curl, the bonus damage from his passive is enormous, and like me, if you build a phantom dancer, or some other attack speed item, you can often 100-0 squishies before the taunt comes off. The ultimate is just a scary thing to pop and cause confusion. It does respectable damage if they take the entire ult, but more often than not the ult is used to help push waves, or to take a tower. I am sure the only reason people get mad is because they don't expect to be taken 1 v 1 by a rammus, and when they try to run away and cant, they thinks its unfair. Thats just funny haha.

Rammus can do ok against some matchups, but for the most part he has way too much trouble early game, whether you are in the jungle or not. His ability to actually catch and lock down his enemy targets is too difficult to be worth the pick if you are going for a ganker/roamer. I mostly play him as a super tanky fighter/late game pusher but you have to survive till late game.

If anything, I would like to see the rollerball cooldown reduced, and/or a revival of the 3 second taunt, and/or a massive reduction in mana costs so that he can use his spells more frequently without a blue buff.

YOU BEEN WARNEDFeb 6, 20152 votes

I've read 25% of the post so far, already upvoted. Looking like a veeeery good post.

Ale non è maleFeb 5, 20151 votes

The Q nerf was intended also for jungle. With the new smite system , a very low CD Q like the previous one would have make his clear surprisingly good for a tank and his early game too strong If they see Rammus is too weak and need help, they could always change a bit Q CD to something like 14/13/12/11/10, but that's pretty much all

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20151 votes

Well, it's odd to see them go into depth about why they nerfed Q but not mention this, so I'm skeptical - unless you have a quote I missed. Nevertheless, perhaps you're right, but I DON'T think they intended to remove his double powerball in early fights. Maybe just make it do the cooldown reduction if he hits a champion (plus that solves the potential exploit of chain powerballing between jungle camps).

Ale non è maleFeb 5, 20151 votes

It is not specifically said anywhere, but they clearly stated that the preseason changes to the various champs and items were done with the new jungle system in mind, so i don't believe they didn't look even for 1 second to one of the junglers that were showing up as the strongest junglers out there at the end of S4 (see Worlds)

In the 4.20 patch note, also, they underlined how he Rammus powewr was going out of control in S4, so even if the nerfs were not intended, they won't give him a big buff to put him back to his previous spot

Grouchy PoroFeb 5, 20151 votes

I disagree with the 'taunt not fitting him' bit but yes, it does have low counterplay. I'll admit (I still play Rammus Jungle), after you have the damage to back you up you powerball into someone and land your combo. Follow them if they run, laugh if they stay to fight.

The taunt is fitting though. He's a badass that doesn't care what you think and if it takes a hurtful slur targeted directly at you to make you fight him, then he'll damn well insult you and your mother. I always liked that about Rammus; he sort of gave this respectable, 'come at me' vibe and if you don't come at him he'll come at you. Scrappy little turtle he is.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20151 votes

No, I'm sorry if I was unclear, I was proposing ideas for adding counterplay to it and was playing with the idea of a ranged skillshot, but said that THAT wouldn't fit is kit/theme. I think his current taunt DOES fit his kit/theme, but could potentially be faulted for low counterplay.

Also, that's exactly what I like about Rammus. Respectable, quiet, "come at me" badass.

Grouchy PoroFeb 5, 20151 votes

While I see it as hard to add counterplay I think Rammus does kinda fine without it. I mean after your taunt and powerball you're waiting on cooldowns or depending on the enemy to fight you to do damage since movespeed only gets you so far. I get kills as Rammus dueling anyone squishy, but only if they think they can fight me since 'I'm tank, lol no dmgz'.

In short, he's in a good place regarding the 'fighter problem' and while it could be improved I think it's alright remaining untouched for a long while. His w perhaps could gain some kind of buff vs monsters for the damage returned to help his jungle clear but that's all I can think of and with the right masteries after your first clear you do fine in the jungle.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20151 votes

I'm starting to think I was wrong about the Taunt counterplay thing, anyway, based on these comments, and have changed the TLDR at the bottom of the main post to reflect that.

I like the idea bout some sort of monster-specific damage buff.

How do you feel about his Q?

Grouchy PoroFeb 5, 20152 votes

I think his q is fine where it is. It's more a mobility and initiation tool than Rammus' main damage source even when clearing camps. The AP ratio is nice up front burst and has a respectable cooldown to make you think a little about when you want to use it. Sure it hurt Rammus' first clear when he was more dependent on that extra second of disabling the monsters, but the cooldown nerf made it back into it's 'use this to move fast and engage' identity.

Honestly the way I use it now is powerball into a jungle camp and use w. Maybe if you need the extra damage use taunt but otherwise you clear the camp in enough time that your powerball is up to quickly move you to the next camp. Personally I'm just glad him and Nautilus, two of my favorite champions, are viable again in the new jungle :).

HawkefireFeb 5, 20151 votes

Alright, so here is my deal with Rammus.

I personally play Rammus top lane now, and in fact I greatly enjoy playing him top lane (a lot of people really underestimate how good he is up there, although he does have his weaknesses to things like AP mages, such as lissandra, AP bruisers, such as Maokai and Rumble)

I greatly enjoy playing him top lane, it is very fun, and he has some well defined strengths and weaknesses that your opponent (and yourself) can take advantage of.

Frankly, right now I don't think Rammus really needs any buffs, except to his Q, and the ONLY (and I really do mean ONLY) thing that his Q could use would be a cooldown buff for when he uses it on monsters/creeps, this is because jungle rammus (especially with the jungle changes) has to use his Q to be able to clear the mobs in his jungle during the early game (and partially into midgame as well) otherwise the jungle mobs simply destroy him and he is forced to go back too early. But when he uses his Q to clear jungle mobs he cannot use it to gank, and a Rammus without his Q cannot gank...it just wont work (I mean I guess it can when the enemy is really REALLY being stupid, but still).

Your point on his Taunt (his E)....I disagree. While the counterplay is "don't get near him" it actually works in the case of Rammus, and here is why:

Rammus has only 1 form of gapcloser built into his kit, and that would be his powerball.

His powerball has some pretty specific and potent weaknesses to it, such as:

It can be body blocked (a friendly champ can dive in front of Rammus and stop him dead in his tracks, or Rammus could make a mistake and clip an enemy minion)

His powerball is a movement speed steroid, this means it isn't a hard gap closer (IE, it isn't a dash like Lee Sin's second Q), which also means it is counterable by slows (such as red buff, ever try chasing a skilled Kalista with a runaans + redbuff? You aren't going to catch her on your own without flash...ever, you can trust me on that one)

His powerball has a wind up time (as in, he doesn't hit full speed immediately), this gives you more time to react against him, thus allowing you to slow him, CC him, or get some minions/friendly champs in between you and him.

All that combined, and it actually shows that it is kinda difficult to get to the enemy that you want to CC.

Sure you could flank them, but that is counterable by good ward coverage and not overextending off on your own(and this is one of the reasons why he was so good in soloQ, it takes a little bit of coordination to stop a good Rammus)

His damage for a tank is fine. In fact, it is solely because of that damage that I feel that Rammus is viable. If you take away his damage, then you can simply ignore him (this is one of the problems with most of the true tank champions, such as Nautilus, once Nautilus has blown his CC, the enemy can virtually ignore him because he isn't going to hurt them and they know it). Rammus on the other hand, does just enough damage that you cannot ignore his presence in teamfights. You actually have to acknowledge that he is there, and that he actually hurts. However, his damage isn't too overbearing either because you can still take him down, and he is very susceptible to CC.

Just my 2 cents.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20153 votes

Perhaps you're right - the counterplay in his Q is the real counterplay in his Taunt. I was trying to provide a balanced opinion of Rammus, and I'm getting the impression I overcompensated and tried to invent OP situations where they don't exist.

I'd agree that, with the nerfed CD on Q, he has a really hard time clearing camps. Do you not think, though, that it should apply to Champions? I certainly feel like my in-fight CC got reduced greatly with that new CD, and it didn't feel like that was the intended nerf.

HawkefireFeb 5, 20154 votes

That is a bit tough to say.

Rammus uses his Q for a total of 4 things: Farming, Ganking, Peeling, and Escaping.

If the cooldown is too high, then Rammus cannot efficiently farm the jungle, and will be less useful in teamfights as he won't be able to peel as much (although he also does have his taunt which somewhat makes up for that)

If the cooldown is too low, then Rammus suddenly gains a massive amount of ganking power (because he can, basically, get anywhere on the map incredibly quickly). Then there is the issue of where he will simply use his Q to escape from his enemies (it is usually a lot harder to stop a Rammus from escaping than it is to stop him from using his Q to engage).

My personal advice would be to start with a more conservative route:

Start with giving him a CDR on his Q when he uses it to farm jungle creeps with. Then assess if he needs any further tuning from there (such as making the CDR also apply to champions when he hits them with it).

Ultimately I like the idea of giving his Q a CDR when it hits a champion, as it promotes more skillful play from Rammus, and rewards him for using the ability properly

Edit: Some ideas on numbers would be:

Powerball Cooldown: 16/14.5/13/11.5/10 Mana Cost: Unchanged

If powerball strikes a jungle creep or an enemy champion, the cooldown of powerball is reduced by 25% (4 seconds at rank 1, total cooldown of 12 seconds, 2.5 seconds at rank 5, total cooldown of 7.5 seconds)

I feel that these numbers wouldn't be overbearing, and would go a long way into making jungle Rammus actually good once again.

If that doesn't seem to be strong enough

If powerball strikes a jungle creep, the cooldown of powerball is reduced by 50% (8 seconds at rank 1, total cooldown of 8 seconds, 5 seconds at rank 5, total cooldown of 5 seconds)

If powerball strikes an enemy champion, the cooldown of powerball is reduced by 25% (4 seconds at rank 1, total cooldown of 12 seconds, 2.5 seconds at rank 5, total cooldown of 7.5 seconds)

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20152 votes

I like these ideas. Here's another that didn't occur to me when I was writing this: Rammus's Q cooldown is shorter the shorter time he spends in powerball. That way, he can spam it on jungle mobs, and in long fights, he can use it as a peel at point blank without an oppressive CD.

Tin TarantinoFeb 5, 20151 votes

Major SparklesFeb 5, 20151 votes

Rammus love #2015

TotalJerkFeb 5, 20151 votes

If you wanna suggest that a champion that isn't Lee Sin or a FotM has any toxic or unfair strengths, and you expect a reasonable number of people to actually consider and discuss your reasoning, you've come to the wrong board.

Unlimited GinFeb 5, 20151 votes

Yeah, and they're not crazy to want to talk about characters with more unfair problems, but I think the discussion has been pretty civil thusfar. Truth be told, I think Rammus' weaknesses are definitely more stand-out than his strengths currently, but I wanted to provide both sides.

MrSlowDieFeb 5, 20151 votes

this reminds me, I stop playing rammus since his nerf. not because it destroyed him, but because I love his fast gank power. "Bot lane can ganked? I'll be there in seconds", the CD nerf make it harder. Now I play shaco and panth mostly, because they can react fast to an opportunity.

Spacesuit SpiffFeb 6, 20151 votes

Rammus is a cool champ that can do well as a niche pick. Unfortunately, I only ever see him picked by people who have no idea how to jungle, because he seems easy to them. Last Rammus I saw died 6 times during laning phase, and rushed a GA because he thought that would make him die less (oh the insanity of provisionals).

KingsgraveFeb 6, 20151 votes

I would really like his kit to actually scale more with Total AD and Armor and actually deal physical damage

Q could easily be Total AD scaling and physical damage with the damage and ratio scaling based on distance traveled for added counterplay R could easily be Physical Damage + an Armor Ratio

DuobyteFeb 6, 20151 votes

Rammus, Fiddle and Amumu have been the most consistent junglers through out the season 4 and are still 52+% win rate dispite the changes. The current problem with rammus is that he has to gank because his clearing sucks hard and his ganking tools are apsurdly strong and easy to use.

Unlimited GinFeb 6, 20151 votes

I'm seeing a 47.8% win rate on him in gold on League of Graphs, and a 50% in bronze/silver, but I don't know what the authoritative place to check is.

Amumu, I believe, is still sitting closer to 52%, if LoG is to be trusted.