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How about we replace nerfing/buffing as the default response for a champion becoming popular...

VOlCE··18 votes·2,284 views

... and instead start enforcing the importance of learning to counter/sustain yourself against champions that are appearing often?

I think it would be neat as all get out if we could have something like "Dark Horses" that teaches players in-depth how to counter the main "problem champions." Instead of Riot hearing complaints and indulging with a nerf (which makes people have to relearn how to use/counter a champion, and may actually unbalance them MORE), they could host a spotlight breaking down the champ's kit and the best way to engage/avoid/counter said champion. Spread knowledge, not hate?~ Maybe?~

I've noticed that most League players' first response to getting their butt handed to them in a lane is to scream for the champion they lost to to get a nerf, or for their own champion to get a buff. How is this a solution to balancing gameplay, ever? Champions are popular not because of some op kit that wrecks the map WITHOUT ANY SKILL - but because a few people take the time to learn them - and their opponent - well enough to be confident with their kit and perfectly passive-aggressive (which is what everyone should learn to do, and we wouldn't have anyone asking for champ nerfs/buffs).

Nine times out of ten if you lose a lane it's due to their skill level > your skill level. It's not the fact that they have an op champ that nothing can be done against. That's not to say I'm here to insult the skill level of everyone complaining - that other time you lost the lane is probably because their champion counters the one you played as... but instead of playing safe you charged in and wondered what happened.

Regardless - when you are facing a champion that counters you, or you suddenly discover OH SUGAR, HE JUST MELTED ME/SHUT ME DOWN HARD, why is the default to REPEAT THE EXACT SAME ENGAGE PATTERN THE ENTIRE GAME UNTIL YOU'RE 0/8 AND SCREAMING "THAT CHAMP IS BROKEN BETTER NERF." If you facesmacked Annie with her stun up and died a miserable, 2 second death, why would you then facesmack her later and expect a different turnout?

Instead of being like oh goodness, maybe I should pay closer attention to the enemies abilities/how they combo/their farm pattern/their movement pattern/gods, SOMETHING TO HELP YOU LEARN, you cry because the match is suddenly impossible. The champ is too op. There's no way to win against them. Better nerf.

Having a hard time in your lane? The answer isn't to nerf your opponent. I promise you can win a game with a Katarina, or an Irelia, or heavens forbid BOTH, just by learning to deny them kills and counter them, instead of attempting to charge them down and wondering what happened. (I can shut them both down with my main, despite the fact that yes, Kat shreds through my mr and yes, Irelia counters me hard. This isn't me being some sort of god or playing as one of your "op" champions, this is me knowing how and when to engage them, and when to say flip no and leave them be.)

-Ask for a gank or secure your lane and roam if you're a carry. ** Alert your teammates** of whats going on in the lane. -Play safe by being goalie of your turret until you can do other things; farm and save some gold - sometimes the** right item** may help you get the upper hand. -Learn from watching them. Figure out how to counter them better later on. What abilities should you wait until they've exhausted to engage? What abilities should you avoid/interrupt? What champion could better** counter their kit** next game? -Wait for them to be sloppy in their waveclear or engages, and punish them while they're weaker than normal. It is possible to win trades against your counter in this manner. -Look at their item build. Adjust YOUR item build to counter your lane enemy. -Focus on other goals in the game, such as securing dragon, taking turrets, or getting rid of wards. -Have good map awareness, so you can watch out for the problem opponent eating your mates/having their mates appear to help eat you. -Play safe. -Play safe. -Freaking play safe. -Be aware of the fact that you don't have to repeatedly kill your lane enemy to help your team win, you just have to NOT FEED THEM. Sometimes a matchup is impossible to win,** but that doesn't ever mean you have to lose.**

I cannot stress the last one enough.

Learn the kits of ALL the champions, like, master them as if you were going to play them, and watch your opponent, always. You can learn to hold your lane in any game, against any matchup, and eventually, learn to shred them as well. If the champion was balanced in beta, with real people testing them, logic dictates they are EXACTLY the same upon release - people just spaz and don't learn them enough to counter them. Counter-play takes away the need for any nerfs or buffs, I promise.

Or is this too much to ask of players, (or of the game company) and is it the standard to continually make the game easier for those that don't wish to be challenged?

<3...

78 Comments

KaisadiIIa7 votes

You forgot to mention about playing safe.

One of the problems is that everybody expects to get fed in 10 minutes no matter the matchup. People see LeBlanc at mid, they pick Zyra because "it's their main" and play aggressive and get rekt by that LeBlanc (wow, we never expected that). Then, when LeBlanc is 5/0 and they have 20 minions at min 10, they "try" to play passive, under turret. They get killed by LeBlanc again and complain she is op and there is nothing you can do against her... YOU GAVE HER 5 KILLS IN 10 MINUTES, NOW IT'S TOO LATE TO "PLAY DEFENSIVE".

Long time ago (when nobody played Graves), I was playing Graves (nobody except me, I meant) against a Vayne. Vayne played too aggressive and, of course, it was a free kill for me due to my high burst. That Vayne complained once and another that Graves was an OP noobchamp blablabla... If you play Vayne, who has a weak early game, against a bursty ADC with a strong laning phase, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT?

tl;dr: If you want to roflstomp early game in every game, just pick something too aggressive early game like Lee Sin, LeBlanc or Riven. Don't expect to win your lane easily with a champion designed to be weak early game.

Leti the Yeti5 votes

I believe you forgot to mention how people ought to play safe can't believe you forgot something as important as that

on another note, I think there is a difference between some champs that... kinda are busted and champs that are only busted becuz people are ignorant

VOlCE6 votes

xD Darnit, how did I forget that one??

Very true; there are champions that do need tweaking every now and then (Bard needs to be looked at imo), especially when they are just released or Riot decides to rework the in-game store...

But that should not be the first thing people's minds jump to when they lose against a champion.

Idk, I would just like to see people put a bit more effort into learning certain champs before they go straight to "RITO PLZ NERF PLZ."

eh.

S H A Y C 03 votes

Heres a great example, I got turded on by quin top as a standard melee champ...So, is Quin Op? ROFL....yeah bro, Quin needs a hard nerf...thats why everybody and their brother plays her and she is permabanned in lcs...wait a minute?????? why does lolking show like 5% pick rate and 0.01% ban rate? somethings fishy here...

Slamurai Jack5 votes

On the topic of Jinx , you can't honestly tell me that a champion with a 31% pick rate and a 54% win rate isn't at least a little overtuned. Yeah, Jinx has weaknesses that can be exploited, but that doesn't mean the strengths she has aren't overbearing much of the time. That's been true of literally every champ that's been OP ever. 4.20 Warwick had a 60%+ winrate and still had weaknesses. 56% win rate Runaans Hurricane Kayle still had weaknesses. Patch 4.2 Yasuo still had weaknesses. And yet, all of those champion got nerfed, and nerfed hard. Not because they had no weaknesses, but because their strengths were strong enough that it made their weaknesses irrelevant in many games.

For me personally, this is how I figure out of a champion is OP or overtuned: Imagine making specific changes to a champion, by either removing mechanics or slightly changing numbers, and then figure out of that champ would still be a good pick even with those changes. In the case of Jinx, there are several areas we can target. The first is the passive, we could lower the %, we could lower the duration, or we could make it only trigger on kills and not assists. The second is her Q, specifically her rocket form; we could take away the 10% bonus damage it for some reason has, we could reduce the range, we could increase the mana cost, or we could take away the ability for the aoe damage to crit. Thirdly, we could target the E, perhaps by raising its low mana cost, or by lowering the duration of the snare. And finally, we reach the ult. We could increase the cooldown of it. We could decrease the blast radius. We could weaken execute portion of the damage so it doesn't kill me from 50% health.

You could literally make any of those changes, perhaps even a couple of them, and Jinx would still remain a very strong pick. Yes, she's immobile, and that is a serious weakness, but the strengths that she gets to compensate for that immobility so far outclass all of the other immobile adcs that there's almost no reason to pick them over Jinx ever if your goal is to win. Even if Jinx has weaknesses, it doesn't change the fact that she is still the best adc in the game by a noticeable margin, and a 31% pick rate and 54% win rate are all the proof you need of that.

KaisadiIIa4 votes

Jinx has a high pick rate and a high win ratio because she's really easy to play. You don't even have to know lane mechanics to have a decent laning phase with Jinx. She's not broken at all.

Yasuo and Kayle weren't OP either. Just FotM.

And Warwick... this is a special case. He was not OP, but there was an item that was OP (Skirmisher's Sabre) and he was the one who could abuse the most from this item. They nerfed the item, they nerfed Devourer enchantment... AND THEY NERFED WARWICK. Completely nonsense. If a champion wasn't considered op (warwick), and now, with an item, is considered OP. Have you realized that nerfing that item will cause that champion to not be OP anymore?

Slamurai Jack3 votes

{quoted}

Jinx has a high pick rate and a high win ratio because she's really easy to play. You don't even have to know lane mechanics to have a decent laning phase with Jinx. She's not broken at all.

Yasuo and Kayle weren't OP either. Just FotM.

And Warwick... this is a special case. He was not OP, but there was an item that was OP (Skirmisher's Sabre) and he was the one who could abuse the most from this item. They nerfed the item, they nerfed Devourer enchantment... AND THEY NERFED WARWICK. Completely nonsense. If a champion wasn't considered op (warwick), and now, with an item, is considered OP. Have you realized that nerfing that item will cause that champion to not be OP anymore?

Kayle and Yasuo were most certainly OP. In both cases, they were lane bullies that scaled into hyper carries while also having amazing utility. If you can't see why that is unbalanced, I can't help you.

RetroRage964 votes

tl;dr JK, I like this idea. Good post, upvoted. Thank you for a nice display of ideas and opinions, even if it were kinda long.

ChargeItDownMid4 votes

You are getting correlation and causation mixed up. There is a correlation between nerfing and popularity. However, champions are not nerfed because they are popular. Instead, champions are nerfed because they are overpowered and overpowered champions naturally become popular.

VOlCE2 votes

This does have some truth; but unfortunately 9/10 champions are nerfed because people who don't play them and will never play them complain when they counter their favorite champions. Deep down these people must know the champ isn't "too op" or they'd rush to get/play them themselves. They just figure it's too hard to learn counter-play, or to switch up their champion pool to find a good lane counter. Or, tbh, most of them probably don't even consider the fact that they CAN counter a champion, and just jump straight to "this is impossible better nerf."

So they complain to Riot and Riot nerfs a champion.

ChargeItDownMid6 votes

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VOlCE1 votes

I do realize the importance isn't finding a champ's specific "counter." Certain types of champs do well against other types of champs, but just because you're say, fiora and you get stuck in a lane with riven, does not mean you should play aggressively and then "ff at 20 riven too op nerf." If you play well, and engage at the right moments to win trades, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to hold your lane or help you mates with other objectives (regardless of the fact that riven counters fiora).

ANY fed champ is a scary champ. Don't even get me started on playing adc Janna. The enemy attempted to dive me and my Lulu and fed me nicely; and halfway through the game their only reaction to me shredding them (with a few items thanks to them being geniuses) was "she's a supp rito should nerf her ad this is ridiculous." No one said anything about their lane playing like aggro-tards instead of waiting to engage at the right moment.

It's not about them having a specific counter, it's about people learning to counter. (To counter as in, not shred them with a specific champ, but to continue to play well against them with what they're given... instead of... playing sloppily or aggressively, and feeding them, and THEN trying to play safe and wondering why said champ can suddenly wreck their team.)

There is never something so ridiculous as Nunu's snowball being 3000 damage, or it would never make it past the first stage of Beta.

I do understand the need to nerf if it was; however, 99/100 this isn't the case.

ChargeItDownMid3 votes

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DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Where are you getting the idea that 99/100 isn't the case? Looking over the boards, most of the complaints are consolidated towards things that are actually overpowered (nid, zed, lee) with a few scattered unjustified complaints and a few joke posts (haha riven sword is actually broken stuff).

Not sure what boards you were reading, but complaints about Ranged dominating Melee (in many forms and Champions) were pretty much the norm, especially on the old boards. "Ryze OP, Kennan OP, Jayce OP, Lulu OP, ADCs OP", all more often than not specifically centered on Top Lane. Ryze, in no way, was actually overpowered. Ryze couldn't / wasn't being used Mid because Champions like Orianna and Ahri were beating him. He could go Top though and beat up Melee Bruisers.

Also, who cares if everything can be scary? People aren't complaining about everything that beats them in a single game. People are complaining about champions who are consistently more powerful than the average league champ to the point where that difference is starting to overtake the skill difference between players matched to the same mmr bracket.

Again, what boards are you reading? "People are complaining about champions who are consistently more powerful than the average league champ", again, no they don't. Ryze was proof of that.

ChargeItDownMid3 votes

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DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Are you talking about the boards now or all time? Because all of those champions were overpowered at some point. When topics were made, they were valid complaints. Ryze, for example, was overpowered when he was the best top lane champions in the game. The fact that ryze was not the best mid champion does not take away from the fact that he was one of best top lane champion of the patch. In case you forgot, people tried taking mages like orianna top against ryze and lost all of those games because those champions simply could not function as well as ryze in the top lane because mid and top lane function differently. Likewise, kennen, jayce, and lulu were overpowered during the time when most people complained about them.

I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. You can't have "best in one lane but sucky other places" and still be "overpowered", because "overpowered" means not only are you vastly more powerful than the class of Champions you're facing off against in a certain lane, but you're also vastly more powerful than all Champions in all lanes, which just simply was not true for Champions like Ryze. If Ryze had been actually "overpowered" he would have squashed Mid Lane Mages in Mid Lane, which he didn't. Ryze was powerful in Top Lane because he was facing off against a class of Champions he was naturally strong against because those class of Champions stayed in that particular lane. Lee Sin is "overpowered" because, nearly literally, he's good at so many things. And not just being able to play in multiple positions mind you, but he does vastly more than Ryze could ever do. The names you and I listed were powerful in one particular lane because more often than not they were fighting against Champions they naturally countered. Do you not remember when some bruisers like Shyvana and Renekton were considered "overpowered"... that is until Ryze ventured Top and beat them all up? Do you not remember when a Mid Burst Mage by the name of Annie that ventured to Bot Lane, without her Mid Lane damage being augmented at all, and started chucking fire at squishy Supports?

That's not a case of a Champion being "overpowered", that's the case of taking a Champion whose balance is focused on a different class of Champion / different position on the map and venturing off to fight Champions who are naturally weaker than them.

You're going to need to cite some of those "all games were lost", because I witnessed many a time where Ryze was put to sleep by a Brand in Top Lane with ease.

My point was that the boards at any given time do a good job of focusing the majority of their complaints at the champions who are/were overpowered at the time (ignoring the troll topics such as the haha riven's sword is "broken" of course).

Again, no... no they don't, not unless it's the Champions that actually have way too much going on for them or are simply broken. Launch Diana? Actually overpowered. Lee Sin, has way too much in his kit and will always be a pick unless they completely gut him. Thresh? Same as Lee Sin, he offers just too much to not be picked.

But when people complain en mass (and it's happened) about Fiora being overpowered? No, the boards don't know what they're talking about. The minute you claim a Champion who is nearly 100% dependent on an ultimate is the minute you have no idea what "overpowered" actually means.

VOlCE1 votes

This.

Edit: I realized the most well rounded arguments are coming from the same person, ahah.

I'll stop commenting like a creep..

Thank you for the debates. <3

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Wait wtf? Since when does a champion need to be strong in multiple roles to be overpowered? We can double kog'mow's r damage and he would still suck in the jungle but he would be overpowered. We can double rengar's q damage but he would still suck in mid lane. Hell, even the champions you acknowledged as being overpowered at their peak like lee sin and thresh were both tame and/or underpowered mid lane and yet you don't hold that against them like you do Ryze. Why should ryze's strength be based off of his offrole position while everyone else is evaluated by his/her main role?

"Since when does a champion need to be strong in multiple roles to be overpowered?"

Did you not read where I said the following:

""overpowered" means not only are you vastly more powerful than the class of Champions you're facing off against in a certain lane, but you're also vastly more powerful than all Champions in all lanes"

I gave you multiple examples of actual overpowered Champions. Release Diana was a nightmare to everyone no matter if she was in Mid or Jungle. She was a terror in early, mid and late game to everyone. Release Xin was overpowered. Eve when she had a Stun was overpowered because giving a Stun to an enemy you cannot see is simply too strong. Lee is overpowered because he's good at everything, no matter what. He's got so much going for him in his kit that he will simply never be a bad choice. Same for Thresh. You missed the point as a whole.

Never mind the fact that AP Kog was a good choice in Mid Lane or could go ADC in Bot, thus giving him two different viable roles. Never mind the fact that Rengar was a viable pick in both Jungle and Top Lane.

You are not "overpowered" simply because you naturally counter your opponents because you moved to a lane filled with Champions who are naturally weaker than you.

Ryze was overpowered in top lane in the same way that pre-nerf thresh was overpowered as a support. He excelled very well at his main role to the point where he functioned well better than 90% of other champions in top. Sure his kit was strong enough that he was weakly viable in the mid lane (which is more that can be said about thresh even at his peak) but his performance mid lane was in no way indicative of his performance in top lane.

...you just don't get it. You especially don't get it since you mentioned pre-nerf Thresh. Thresh has been nerfed... yet he's still viable and picked multiple times at multiple levels of skill as a Support. Ryze? He got nerfed and... crickets. We haven't seen a consistent Ryze pick since his nerf. That's what I mean by overpowered. Thresh got nerfed and he's still fine. Ryze got nerfed and he's no where to be found. Thresh is good at far more things than Ryze is, period. Ryze's main role was a Mid Lane Mage, he was only "decent" there (actually, he was quite terrible against Champions like Orianna) so he was rotated Top where he could excel.

"he functioned well better than 90% of other champions in top"

...that's because 90% of Champions in Top are Melee Bruisers, which Ryze and nearly any other Ranged Champion naturally counter, especially in the laning phase where it's 1 on 1. Hell, if Nami had damage she could potentially beat out many, many Top Laners.

You're not understanding the core concept here, like... at all.

If you suck in your primary lane to the point where you have to go to another lane to be strong, and you're only strong because the new lane you're in refuses to adapt, you're not "overpowered".

If you're strong no matter what lane you're in or situation you're faced with, you're "overpowered".

Ryze being bad in Mid and going Top to beat up people he naturally counters, because people won't stop picking Champions he naturally counters, is not Ryze being "overpowered", that's the player base being stupid and not wanting to change. Every single time on the old boards someone complained about Ryze Top they adamantly demanded that he be nerfed so that Melee Bruisers / Tanks could be viable again. They complained about a Champion who naturally counters them. That's like complaining that rock beats scissors so rock needs to be nerfed.

Lee Sin being able to Ward hop then shield an ally then Slow an enemy then Hard CC the enemy ADC into the waiting arms of his team and then jump out completely fine is overpowered because so few Champions have that many options.

"Since when does a champion need to be strong in multiple roles to be overpowered?"

Stop being one of those people that throw "overpowered" around like it's candy on Halloween.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Lol wtf are you talking about? A champion does not have to be good at multiple roles to be overpowered. All a champion has to do is outclass everyone else at his/her main role to be overpowered. A champion power is measured by how well they do at their best. On top of that, there is no reason why a champion needs to be broken like release xin or release diana to be overpowered.

If you're going to keep repeating the same wrong thing over and over, you're not going to suddenly be correct. You're still wrong, especially since you seem to think that role is limited to a lane position. One more time: Lee is overpowered because he can do so much at multiple stages of the game in multiple situations. Ryze is not overpowered because even if he dominates Top Lane, he's still beaten down by various classes in various situations once laning phase is over.

Also, Ryze didn't just counter bruisers, he countered everyone top. When a mage was sent top, ryze would simply just farm out the lane and win lategame. Do you remember why ryze was a top tier top laner and not a top tier mid lane? It as because the two roles were functionally different and Ryze's strength aligned with top better than mid. In mid lane, Ryze could hold his own during the laning phase but he simply did not contribute enough to early/mid game skirmishes and dragon fights as other mid laners to be consideered a god tier mid laner. However, as a top laner, those engagements did not matter as much so Ryze could just farm all day and outscale any of the common mid lane mages that were sent top. That is why people stopped sending mages top against Ryze and opted to still send bruisers top even though they were also countered by Ryze. Ryze was only a "decent" mid laner but he was an overpowered top laner.

Again, show me instances of Mid Lane Mages being sent Top to counter Ryze and failing. You also are still only focusing on the laning phase and solo farming post laning phase. While Ryze would farm Top, Orianna (whom was Mid) would be helping team fights be won, objectives being taken and the map being Warded. Ryze, compared to someone like Orianna, is no where near "overpowered" in the grand flow of the game. Ryze never, ever, can contribute to a team the same way an Orianna can, yet you're calling him "overpowered".

Ryze can't contribute to a team on the same level as a Lee Sin can, yet you call him "overpowered". Ryze can't contribute to a team on the same level as a Thresh can, yet you call him "overpowered".

This is why you have no idea what "overpowered" actually means. Strong in one lane =/= overpowered. Period.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

A champion does not have to be lee sin level to be overpowered. One champion being overpowered does not automatically exclude everyone else who doesn't do everything that champion does. Lee sin can't contribute to a team on the same level as release day Nasus, is he all of a sudden no longer overpowered? Ryze can't contribute to a team as much as some of the most broken champions that have existed in league but he still contributes far more than a balanced champion and therefore is overpowered.

Lee can't contribute to a team the same way release Nasus could? You're kidding me... right? Lee can Ward hop, Shield allies, Slow enemies, Hard CC a target and get out safely. Nasus? Not so much. Ryze contributes more to a team than a balanced Champion? Please, tell me how Ryze is somehow more effective to a team comp (in his "overpowered" state) than a Janna, Amumu, Zac (who is now considered "underpowered"), Leona, etc. Ryze, at best, is a tanky single target Soft CC that helps lock down someone to be killed. Lux can still do more than Ryze can in an overall team fight.

You are confusing the definition of broken and overpowered. A champion does not have to be broken to be overpowered and he certainly does not need to excel in multiple roles. All an overpowered champion has to have is a noticible difference between his or her power level and the power level of an average champion which can easily be accomplished in one role.

And no, I'm not confusing the definition of "broken" and "overpowered". There was a "noticeable difference" between Yorick and many Top Laners because Yorick was a lane bully, but Yorick was never even near "overpowered". It's you who doesn't have an actual grasp on what "overpowered" means, because it's certainly not restricted to one lane / role.

As far as your statement, "A champion does not have to be broken to be overpowered", yes... yes they do. You cannot be "broken" without being "overpowered" considering "broken" surpasses "overpowered" on the balance spectrum.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Were you even around for release day nasus? His ult had a 1:1 ap ratio per second. He didn't need any of the tricks lee sin had seeing as his ult simply did far and away more damage than any other spell in the game in a meta where mobility was much harder to come by. Also, Ryze contributed more than most balanced champions simply because he had a much better combination of tankyness, burst damage, consistent damage, and cc. Sure lux has more burst but not nearly as much consistent damage or tankyness. Sure amumu has more cc but deals nowhere near as much burst or consistent damage. etc. (granted janna in some of her more overpowered incarnations arguably contributed more than ryze but again, being weaker than an overpowered champion does not automatically make a champion not overpowered).

I know what Nasus' ult did. Here's the thing, Nasus' ult damage is meaningless if Lee kicks him out of range of anyone. Nasus' ult can't damage anyone if he's not close to anyone. Nasus' ult damage can't save anyone's life, nor can it lock someone down to be killed. Release Nasus is no where near the same level of effective on a game wide level than Lee Sin has been.

Lux doesn't need consistent damage or tankiness because she has so much lock down and so much range, which means she can lock down a target long before Ryze can.

Amumu doesn't need damage because he's so tanky and has so much more CC than Ryze.

Ryze's tankiness, burst damage and CC meant nothing when up against the large amount of Champions that could power through his tankiness (such as Mages since he built Armor most of the time), simply out ranged him or had actual Hard CC.

Being a lane bully doesn't automatically mean there is a noticible difference in the power level of yorick and other top laners. Power level includes how well a champion performs early, mid, and late game and not just during the laning phase. Yorick's laning phase is very strong but his overall power level which includes his less than stellar mid and late game is not noticeable stronger than that of an average top laner.

Except for the fact that... y'know... it does. Yorick was powerful in the early game because he was a lane bully. He was a lane bully because he was more powerful than other people in his lane when lane mattered. Hence... lane bully. I know what power levels include, you've been arguing against overall power level this entire time. Power level includes every stage of the game, every position in the game, every possible role and every possible situation. Hence why Lee Sin is "overpowered" because he is quite nearly good at every stage of the game in nearly every situation. Lee Sin is an example of an "overpowered" but not broken Champion. Release Xin, that was broken. Release Diana, that was broken. Eve with a Stun is quite nearly broken. You're trying to claim Ryze was / is overpowered despite the fact that he was weaker than other Mages in Mid, has less range than many, many Champions and has a single target Soft CC when others have much, much better CC. It's a logical and balance contradiction to claim something is overpowered and can yet still name multiple, non-broken mechanics, that can beat it.

You are reading the statement wrong. A champion cannot be broken without being overpowered but he can be overpowered without being broken. Broken surpasses overpowered on the balance spectrum so by definition, there has to be champions that reach the overpowered level without surpassing the level enough to be considered broken. Ryze, for example, was not broken but he was overpowered.

And you're being far too liberal with the term "overpowered" (which is a norm for gamers). Ryze was not overpowered, he was strong, especially when in a lane full of people he naturally countered.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

First of all, you obviously have not played against release day nasus if you really think he was weaker than lee sin. His damage on his ult was retardedly high (it had a higher dps than kat's current ult despite not being channeling and lasting for 15 seconds while still providing additional hp, attack speed, and attack damage to nasus) that he controlled the battles simply because champions could not stand near him for more than 2 seconds without dieing. This was made even worse by that fact that far fewer champions had mobility spells in the game. Anyway, that is probably not that important since release Nasus's ult ratio got nerfed to 1/20th (yes, it was actually nerfed all the way down to 5% of what it was on release without any compensation) of it's release day damage in less than a week.

First of all, you obviously don't understand the difference between "weakness" and "contribution", which is what I said. Nasus was not weaker than Lee Sin by any means, but he also did not contribute to the overall game in the same way that a Lee Sin has since release. Damage is damage, and while Nasus had a ton of it, he did not provide the level of utlity Lee Sin does. Why you can't understand this notion is beyond me. The amount of sheer utility Lee Sin brings to the team is more useful than the erroneously overpowered damage that Nasus' ult did. Again, one ult from Lee Sin kicks Nasus out of range for his ult to do damage. Lee, even if caught, can shield himself then dash out, again, out of the range of Nasus' ult damage.

As far as the main discussion goes, you are getting the concept of top lane and laning phase mixed up. Top lane as a role means far more than just the laning phase. Ryze was overpowered top lane because of a combination of his strength top lane during the early, mid, and late game. Yorick, while being strong early game, is not nearly as good mid or late game and therefore not noticible stronger than an average top laner in any way. What being overpowered top lane does not need to include, however, is how strong a champion is in other roles. Ryze can be beat mid lane but who cares? Thresh could be beat by many non-broken champions mid lane and yet he was still overpowered because of what he did in the support role. A champion does not have to overpowered in "stage of the game, every position in the game, every possible role and every possible situation" to be overpowered. All they have to do is be is noticeably stronger than an average champion in their main role.

And yet you're arguing that Ryze is "overpowered" due to his strength in Top Lane during early, mid and late game. Again, you're the one focusing on Ryze's strength in Top Lane only. Because, again, once he left Top Lane and got into team fights, other Mages simply beat him and kept him out of team fights with their superior range and CC. That's one of the reasons why Ryze would stay Top and farm. Thresh gets beat by pretty much any regular laner if he tries to solo Mid, but Thresh's strengths and contributions during the entire course of the game far outweigh Ryze's. Just as Orianna's does. Just as Lee's does. Just as Annie's does. Just as nearly any ADCs who are prominent at any given time.

Also, I'm not using the term overpowered too liberally when I am using the general consensus on the term the term. You are inventing your own definition of the term which goes against the generally accepted definition and arguing that everyone else has to take your definition. Reguardless of how you wish to define your power levels, Ryze's power level was simply too high and he needed a nerf. Whether you choose to call that power level as being "overpowered" like the general accepted definition or "strong" in your own definition is not all that relevant in the long run compared to the idea being conveyed.

No, I'm not inventing any sort of definition. I'm using the definition that actually spans the entire media of gaming. "Overpowered" in every other genre of competitive games means that whatever the "overpowered" mechanic is, be it a character, move, weapon, item, etc, it is better than a majority of the entire game, not just a certain role. The vanilla version of Armor Lock in Halo Reach was overpowered because it beat out everything in terms of defensive abilities, it was short of "broken" only due to its cooldown. Vanilla Sagat in Street Fighter IV was "overpowered" because of his damage output, his sheer ease of putting together combos and his large assortment of easy match ups. The "generally accepted" version of "overpowered" on these boards is often wrong and generally is nothing more than complaining and calling something "cheap".

Seriously, people on the old boards would call Fiora "overpowered" because of her ult, if the "general accepted definition" includes that then the "generally accepted definition" has no idea what it's talking about.

In the context of what OP is saying, the majority of the qq topics that show up on the front pages are for champions that need nerfs, either direct or indirect, to bring their power ingame in line with that of an average champion at the time the topics were made. Whether you want to argue that the term for those champions should be overpowered or not doesn't really change the point of the discussion.

I don't think I even once spoke against what the OP had to say, nor have I ever been off point in the discussion. But just because a Champion "needs" nerfs doesn't mean they were actually overpowered.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Because Nasus's damage alone provided far more contribution than lee sin did. Sure Lee can kick a single target away from his team but Nasus by the nature of his damage completely zoned the enemy team from a portion of the battle field. Sure lee could shield himself and an ally but nasus's presense did not allow the other team to deal their damage or use their cc in an optimal way. Damage beyond a certain point can contribute more to a team than any amount of utility in any champion's kit simply due to how much zone pressure it provides. Release nasus single-handedly won pretty much every single game he was in just because of how much damage his ult provided. Also, want to re-emphasize the point isn't that Lee sin was not overpowered, it is simply that lee sin was not the absolutely more overpowered champion to ever be released in league and that the fact that there have been more overpowered champions does not pre-clude lee from also being overpowered.

Where did I ever claim that Lee was the most overpowered Champion ever? And no, straight damage will never dominate utility in this instance since Lee retains his utility when he has no ultimate. Release Nasus however does not retain the same level of damage without his ultimate. Lee, with no ult, can still chase via Ward hopping, shield allies, Slow enemies and get out of hairy situations. Nasus cannot.

I am seriously curious as to whether or not you ever played against release day nasus because he ranks up with the most broken champions that has ever been in league. If you haven't, think of his as pre-nerf zed with even more damage. Even though zed's kit is entirely made to deal damage, he contributed more in the way of zone and map pressure than someone like taric who on paper has more utility type spells.

You can be curious all you want, but damage is not greater than utility in the instance we are discussing.

I am only focusing on his strength in the top lane because I only needed to focus on his strength in the top lane. Sure thresh at his peak or oriana at her peak or lee at his peak provided more than Ryze. However, all of those champions were overpowered and ryze providing less than them does not automatically mean that he was not overpowered. Ryze at top lane provided a noticibly more amount of power than any balanced champion during his peak and therefore was also overpowered. That does not mean that other champions were not also overpowered or that other champions being overpowered

"At their peak"? No HALP, there is no "at their peak". Orianna now provides more than Ryze when he was dominant Top Lane. Orianna can shield, provide a speed boost and has Hard CC, you give her damage and then she's even better than any version of Ryze we've ever seen. Ryze can't shield an ally, Ryze can't give an ally a speed boost and Ryze has never had Hard CC, and Hard CC > Soft CC.

Honestly, that is a completely bullshit version of what overpowered means in the entire gaming media and really didn't apply to games outside of the fighting genra (consider, for example, the fact that single units in rts were called overpowered even if the race as a whole was not). However, even if we were to accept your version of the story, you are not using overpowered how everyone uses it in mobas. Reguardless of how the term is used in fighting games, mobas are by their very nature different and what is overpowered in a moba is different from what is overpowered in a street fighter game. The term overpowered in moba games has always meant being noticibly stronger than the average. This is due to the complex nature of moba games where small differences in power gets multiplied thousand fold throughout the game due to having 10 heroes on the field, items, map objecties, and hero progression along with many other factors. These differences in power, which may not have made a difference in other genras, made a huge difference in moba games and therefore were called overpowered. The boards are not using overpowered wrong, they are using overpowered the same way it has always been used in the context of a moba/dota style game.

"really didn't apply to games outside of the fighting genre"

...never mind the fact I also listed Halo, a FPS game. The term "overpowered" isn't special or different from one genre of game to the next, sorry to burst that bubble. "Overpowered" though is, as I stated earlier, thrown around like it's candy on Halloween on these boards. There is no "overpowered" means this in fighting games, this in puzzle games, this in RTS and this in Third Person Shooters. "Overpowered" is the same thing in every genre.

You do know those were jokes right? There was a sense amoung a decent chunk of the community that the old general discussion boards was full of bandwagoners who would complain about anything that someone else complained about. As a result, a group of people attempted to flood the board with fiora op topics in order to see if they could get everyone to qq about fiora who at the time was seen as weak thanks to a video someone made.

If those were "jokes", they were really shitty jokes. Unless you mean "jokes" as in worthless posts.

Okay, so the problem in all of this is that we are using different versions of overpowered. You seem to be using the fighting games term for overpowered while I have been using the moba/dota version of overpowered.

Again, no we're not. Well, I stand correct, you are using a "different version" of "overpowered" because you think there's different versions of it. But, again, there's not. And again I cited Street Fighter and Halo yet used the same word with the same definition.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

I am in no way saying the fiora op posts were not a shitty joke. They got downvoted to oblivion for a reason

lol, no they didn't. Seriously, have you ever read General Discussion on the old boards?

and only showed up because the old boards showed everything. However, it is very ignorant to bring up those posts as serious posts when they were such an obvious troll attempt.

Except not all of them were "such obvious troll attempt" posts. It's also very ignorant to claim that they were.

Also, you cited fighting games and fps using your definition and I cited rts and mobas for my definition. Which group of games is more relevant to league? It is like going to a hockey game and claiming that soccer's definition of off sides is the only legitimate one.

Your analogy is flawed considering that "offsides" is a rule and not a subjective opinion regarding balance. My definition is for the entire video game genre, your made up one is trying to pigeon hole to specifically a single genre, which simply does not work.

Guess what? Different genras of games do not all use the same terms and overpowered in mobas (and the corresponding rts games they were originally made on) has a 16 year history of use that is different from how overpowered is used in fighting genras.

Never mind the fact that "overpowered" is a general term in the same vein as "cheap". "Cheap" doesn't mean one thing in fighting games but another in MOBAs in the context of effectiveness / balance. Seriously... you questioned my time with release Nasus, I now have to question your even most basic understanding of the video game genre and community as a whole, especially since you think "overpowered" means one thing in a MOBA but another in say a fighting game or an RPG.

As far as ingame power goes, you are severely overvaluing cc's.

Not at all, but please continue.

By your definition, everyone would only pick the champions with the most cc and there would never be a reason to pick marksmen.

...have you not seen who is generally in power from time to time? Thresh has nearly the most CC in the game, second (or tied with) Naut, who is now being used. Rek / Jarvan were (are) played almost exclusively as Junglers along with a few staples (such as Lee), all of whom have Hard CC. Janna, Hard CC without an ult. Annie, Hard CC without an ult. Elise, when she was played, Hard CC without an ult. Jinx, Soft CC without an ult. Graves, Soft CC without an ult. Etc, etc, etc. If you literally think my definition means "there would be no reason to pick marksmen" you have

A) no idea how to understand the context of the discussion at hand B) have little in the way of reading comprehension C) really shouldn't be talking about balance / gameplay at all since you have so little understanding about it.

I'm trying to be nice with you here HALP without viewing you as a fool... but you keep providing reasons for no one to take you even a little bit serious in this discussion.

However, cc is not the only way to provide utility to your team

Yes it is, considering that utility is utility and damage is damage and both are classified differently. Hence why Orianna is classified, for instance, as a "Utility Mage" while Annie is a "Burst Mage" and Cass is a "DPS Mage". Never mind the fact that the Mastery Tree is set up in the categories of Offense, Defense and Utility.

damage beyond a certain point provides just as much if not more zone and map pressure as direct cc.

Except for the fact that CC, especially Hard CC stops damage before it happens or while it's happening. Because, once again, if Nasus can't get into range to deal his damage , it means 0 to the team.

Ryze, for example, could not shield an ally directly but he could prevent far more damage to his allies by his zone control than what post-nerf orinanna could shield.

No he couldn't. Why? Because his "zone control" was a far shorter range than any of Orianna's abilities. Know who actually had damage zone control? Nidalee, because her Spear outranges nearly all basic abilities and did / does a large chunk of damage. Nid's Spear circumvents the weakness to CC by way of range and cooldown. Nid's Spear outranges all of Lux's abilities, save her ult and Lux has some of the longest range in the game.

Mobas as a genra are much more complicated than fighting games and fps and you need to stop treating the genras as if they are the same.

I never once said a MOBA is the same as a fighting or FPS game. But complexity does not change what the word "overpowered" means when used in the context of balance. Seriously... sometimes I have to ask why you are even in this discussion.

League is not simply about choosing the champions with the most utility or the most cc, you need a mix of every statistic and a champion like Ryze at his peak provided too much as a package compared to a balance champion.

Except he didn't. He was only better than those he naturally countered in the first place. Nor did I ever say League was "simply about choosing the champions with the most utility or the most cc". Again, you seem to have zero idea of what "context" or "comprehension" is.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Except you just gave a definition of overpowered in fighting games which has never applied to mobas.

Uh, no I didn't. I gave the definition of what it meant in general to gaming and then provided examples in the context of different games that fit that general definition.

The definition of overpowered has never meant what you think it means

Yes it has.

and you continueing to pretend it does only shows your complete ignorance in the matter. Instead of pluging your ears and going "lalalalala", you need to get over your ego and learn to listen to people who understand the situation better than yourself.

So, not only do you need to study up on gaming and understanding it as a whole, you need to learn what "the pot calling the kettle black" is, because you're starting to now show signs of that as well.

The problem is that you are extremely ignorant about the concepts being discussed and do not know enough to know just how uninformed you are. You are unable to evolve your thinking from other games genras to mobas and as a result continue to apply outdated concepts to a modern moba and come up with faulty conclusions.

Please read above regarding "the pot calling the kettle black". The fact that you don't even begin to understand general principles that reach across gaming as a whole paints you as the ignorant one, not me.

Your knoweldge of the meta, for example, is very lacking if elise is as far back as you go. Remember the things that were in power when Nasus was released? The meta bounced between champions like jax (who's cc was very unrealiable at the time), tryndamere, tf, and kayle/twitch. Tf was the only one that had a hard cc. The twitch/kayle combo which dominated every other strategy came with two very weak slows (twitch's slow was even worse back then) and won simply because Twitch provided so much potential damage that other team compositions could never get into position to use their cc. While the more recent meta has favored cc over damage, that has not always been the case.

...again you lack understanding of context. You're trying to compare one meta to another, especially one meta had what... 38 Champions in it. 38. Seriously... 38. You do realize one of the biggest strategies back then was "Roaming Alister", correct? One of the reasons for this was his ability to lock down a single valuable target with two Hard CCs. Twitch's damage back then also outranged most CC. Never mind the fact that the utility of being able to make him impervious to damage while he himself was outputting his optimal damage made him dangerous. Jax had very unreliable Hard CC but he had the threat of making ADC damage potentially void and could do large amounts of damage. Trynd couldn't die and had good Soft CC. And you're basing all this on what... the Normal games of back then?

Those classifications were made for low elo players to help them break into the game.

Sorry... I laughed for a little bit on this. No HALP, classifications such as "Burst Mage" were not made for "low Elo players", considering such classifications reach back to days of Dungeons & Dragons which basically created design directions for the various archetypes that League of Legends Champions are based on.

Once you advance into high elo play, those distinctions are significantly blurred.

Keep telling yourself that but no, no they don't. Cass is still a DPS Mage whether you're playing vs. Bots or playing in the LCS. There is no "blurring" between the distinction of what Cass can do vs. what Orianna can do, and such is why they are classified as they are.

Instead, champions exert areas of zone and map pressure which is derived from a combination of all of their qualities and not simply the base classifications riot made to help ease newbies into the genra. Release Nasus, for example, won games simply because the other team had to get into range of his damage or lose all of their inhibitors.

...seriously have no idea where you think you're coming from on this one.

Ryze was also able to be closer to the front lines than other mages which allowed him to have more zone control even against mages with longer range.

Again, incorrect. But good try. Ryze had to be closer to the front lines because he didn't have the range. Ryze's abilities have nearly half the range that Lux's does, which means Lux can stay somewhat behind the front line and still out range him.

Actually, it does mean something different in mobas and it honestly has never had the meaning that you outlined within the context of a moba.

You're still wrong, no matter how many times you say this.

I don't know how to break this to you but the definition of words change over time.

No shit?

Hell the term "multiplayer online battle arena" itself was used to describe use to describe a team deathmatch similar to what the ascension special game mode was. It was never used to refer to a game like dota or hon until league of legends came along and attributed new meaning to the term. Words frequently gain new meaning and the meaning of the word "overpowered" evolved to gain a new meaning in the moba community around a decade and a half ago.

No, no it didn't. Again, you can keep trying to say it did, you can keep trying to think you're correct, but you being obstinate isn't making you any kind of correct. The term "overpowered" has not "evolved" into meaning something different in one genre as opposed to another. Period. Why you're so stuck in this ignorant mindset is beyond me. "Overpowered" has always meant to be more powerful than a larger portion of the other mechanics, be it items, weapons, characters, abilities or combinations of the previously mentioned. There's no special little "MOBA ONLY" version of "overpowered" any more than there's a special "FIGHTING GAME ONLY" version of it. To think that is ignorant and borderline completely idiotic.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Roaming alistar came after twitch/kayle was nerfed.

Relevancy level: 0. But please, continue.

And if you can't compare one meta to another, then you have to take release day nasus in the context of the meta he was released in and release nasus contributed far more to that meta than anyone of the champions you have mentioned in their own meta.

The context of a 38 Champion meta cannot even compare to the context of a 100+ Champion meta. And no, simply, no... his contribution then does not outweigh current contributions.

You do know that league of legends is not a turn based game right? You understand that you don't roll dice for every action that is taken?

You're pulling this angle now? Are you that dumb? Like... seriously? Do I need to name for you the hundreds of games that have been released after Dungeons & Dragons prior to League of Legends that utilize the various archetypes and classifications? Are you seriously THAT dumb to think this is an angle to take in this discussion? "Uh, did you know LoL isn't turn based? That it doesn't use dice?" Are you seriously being that retarded right now?

Riot took the classifications that other games used and adopted those terms to give new players an idea of what the champions are like to play for newbies.

No they didn't, and your ignorance has reached the pinnacle of retardation at this point.

Notice how teemo was classified as a support and an adc despite playing like neither of those roles for veterans of the game?

/facepalm

Yeah, and notice how LeBlanc is labeled as an Assassin / Mage and plays exactly like one at every single level of play?

While we are on the topic, have you noticed that a burst mage is league of legends is completely different from a mage in a d and d game?

Except they aren't.

Instead of taking turns and rolling dice, you move in real time and your actions are all handled by the game engine. Is it possible (and bare with me here because I know this is hard for you to understand) that the term burst mage may have picked up a few new connotations when applied to realtime games that it did not previously have in turn based games?

Dear fuck... you're getting even more retarded by the quote.

You see, terms change when applied to different genras of games. The term burst mage is not 100% the same in a D and D game as it is in a moba, just like how the term overpowered is not 100% the same in a fighting game as it is in a moba.

And you keep going...

You probably need to play at higher elo then. The game becomes defined by how much pressure they exert and not simply by damage or cc.

Oh... higher Elos? You mean like... the Elos that use CC to secure kills? Those kinds of Elos? I mean, you've seen Flash Tibbers Stun, maybe those Flash Rek Unborrows? How about those Thresh Hooks? Leona E's? Ahri Charms? Lee Sin Kicks? Do I really have to continue? Do I need to bring out a picture book at this point for how dumb you're being?

Lol are you seriously so stuck in your old ways that you can't see something so obvious as the fact that words change meanings overtime? I'm sorry but that is extremely sad and I don't know what I can do to help you anymore. There is a reason why the term overpowered is used so often in every moba board to describe something completely different from what you think it means. Your thinking is stuck in the 1990s and simply cannot be applied to league of legends without drawing many faulty conclusions such as the ones you have been drawing.

Reading this...

DarksideEric1 votes

{quoted}

When you have nothing more to add to the conversation, you need to just shut up and leave =/ You clearly do not have a full understanding of mobas to hold a conversation about them. At best, you can grasp at pieces without seeing the big picture.

Didn't we cover "the pot calling the kettle black" already? Do I need to link you to it or are you just as bad as understanding that concept as you are at understanding video games?

And you know all of those games won by adcs seiging towers? Or by zed split pushing? Or by leblanc bursting out a squishy? Or by nidalee hitting 2 spears on target? At high elo games, there is a lot more to the game than simply who hits the most cc. The game isn't simply won by cc's alone, a league team is made up of far more than simply the number of ccs that are on it. CCs are important but tunnel visioning on them like you are currently doing and completely ignoring every other aspect of the game is a very ignorant and foolish way of evaluating league.

If you think I'm "tunnel visioning" on CC.. then you're still the ignorant one. And at this point, not are you just retarded, you're laughably so.

Wait, wait... what? It's important to have both CC and damage? No shit Sherlock, welcome to the club. But your angle with bringing up Nasus on launch was "OMG FLAT DAMAGE SO HIGH IS BETTER THAN CC!"

Sorry HALP, you're a certified idiot in the realm of understanding anything about gaming or understanding what has been said over the course of this entire conversation.

But hey, let's go down the line, shall we?

ADCs knocking down towers (never mind the fact that Tanks / Supports help protect them with the treat of diving... with CC) Zed split pushing (never mind the fact that he's allowed to split push because people are focused on someone that isn't him) LeBlanc brusting out a squishy (never mind the fact that they removed Silences [hey look, CC] from Assassins because the combination of such an effective CC + such high burst damage was seen as too powerful) Nid hitting Spears (never mind the fact that I covered this, due to its range and cooldown it circumvents the whole CC thing, also never mind the fact that it's one of the most complained about single abilities in the game due to its range, cooldown and damage)

I like how you have realized there is no way you can further defend your ignorant point and have devolved to posting random youtube videos.

Random YouTube videos? You mean the one that was completely relevant to this pile of shit that has become your side of the "discussion". Apparently now, for whatever reason (because you're dumb), a YouTube video of League of Legends Champions, on a League of Legends message board, while talking about League of Legends balancing, that even includes a Champion we've touched on... is "random".

"Guys, you know LoL doesn't use dice, right?! Right guys? Guys?"

You're laughable. You had some merit at the start but now you're just the Village Idiot.

DarksideEric1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, you are completely out of touch with mobas and are in no position to judge anyone else. Instead of getting mad at everyone who makes a valid point, you need to sit back and reevaluate where league is. Your current views and ideas of the situation are so outdated that you are unable to arrive at any relevant conclusions to the current conversation.

We covered this, multiple times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

VOlCE1 votes

That still doesn't make sense as to why people screamed for his nerf. Literally all that happened was people started playing him in a different place on the map, because yes, he does better against bruisers than most other mages... He wasn't given any more strengths, and obviously isn't op if most other champs in his class were able to beat him into changing lanes.

I still cry when I see an Ashe come mid with me (I main Diana, and for the first few minutes of the game my life is absolute hell when this happens), but that doesn't mean Ashe is overpowered and needs a nerf. Someone was just a butt and took her mid to poke my squish melee arse. Perfect counter early game, and as she's not one of the "stronger" adc's I can see why it'd be viable for her to mid.

VOlCE2 votes

LOL "That's like complaining that rock beats scissors so rock needs to be nerfed."

THAT'S PERFECT - literally perfect, for the point I had in mind here.

VOlCE1 votes

Lol "Riven's sword is broken." Poor dear. I never knew.

I understand entirely when someone complains about something particular that needs to be tweaked because it really is unfair, (Kalista's hurricane hopping), but as an example look at adc/mage mains spamming complaints about Kat/Irelia, or assassin mains complaining about Riven. Tank mains complaining about Teemo. Assassin mains throwing a hissy fit over the new tank meta. I'm sure you can see the same pattern I pulled out of that...

Unfortunately people don't USUALLY (there are exceptions, I know I know) complain about something that legit needs to be nerfed. MOST PEOPLE complain about champions that counter them, instead of learning "Oh drr, if Diana pops up in my lane I should grab my supp and head back to the turret" they repeatedly try to poke her down on sight hoping to kill her, and then wonder why their hp vanished when she uted them. Then they rage (because I get this all the time) "WTF this is why Diana needs a nerf." NO, like hell she does, she just counters you. And instead of adjusting your playing to her presence in your lane (or realizing assassins counter adc's and there's nothing you could have done about your impending doom), they pretty much suicide and then blame her "op" kit afterwards. And you fed her. Go figure she's gonna snowball now.

"RITO PLZ NERF ALL ASSASSINS THEY'RE TOO OP I CAN'T."

Learn to deal with their engages accordingly... No...?

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

Lol "Riven's sword is broken." Poor dear. I never knew.

I understand entirely when someone complains about something particular that needs to be tweaked because it really is unfair, (Kalista's hurricane hopping), but as an example look at adc/mage mains spamming complaints about Kat/Irelia, or assassin mains complaining about Riven. Tank mains complaining about Teemo. Assassin mains throwing a hissy fit over the new tank meta. I'm sure you can see the same pattern I pulled out of that...

Unfortunately people don't USUALLY (there are exceptions, I know I know) complain about something that legit needs to be nerfed. MOST PEOPLE complain about champions that counter them, instead of learning "Oh drr, if Diana pops up in my lane I should grab my supp and head back to the turret" they repeatedly try to poke her down on sight hoping to kill her, and then wonder why their hp vanished when she uted them. Then they rage (because I get this all the time) "WTF this is why Diana needs a nerf." NO, like hell she does, she just counters you. And instead of adjusting your playing to her presence in your lane (or realizing assassins counter adc's and there's nothing you could have done about your impending doom), they pretty much suicide and then blame her "op" kit afterwards. And you fed her. Go figure she's gonna snowball now.

"RITO PLZ NERF ALL ASSASSINS THEY'RE TOO OP I CAN'T."

Learn to deal with their engages accordingly... No...?

I shake my head when people used to say on the old boards (do they still do it here?) that ADCs as a class were overpowered... because 3 - 5 of them are strong.

When people would complain about ADCs being overpowered because they're mandatory. That was quite an amusing streak because all of those people who complained about "it not being fair that ADCs are in every game" had no idea at all about the basics of why.

"We want to be able to play Leona / Jarvan bot vs. Ez / Thresh", sure... you can, but you're more than likely going to get stomped because a two Melee Bot Lane simply is not as effective as a two Ranged Bot Lane or a Ranged / Melee Bot Lane. Period. "That means Ranged is overpowered!" No it doesn't, it means Ranged is a natural counter to Melee. Period. Never mind the fact that in order to properly balance Leona / Jarvan to be able to stand toe to toe and potentially / easily beat an Ez / Thresh lane Leona / Jarvan themselves would have to be extremely unbalanced, which in turn would make them "overpowered" because they will take those strengths against their now no longer natural counters and use them to destroy the people they were strong against already.

Kitten of Evil3 votes

There's some truth to this, but of course, there are also times when a champion's kit is too strong (this is common on release, but changes to itemization can make it happen too -- Skirmisher's Warwick, for example?)... and there are times when a champion's kit is frankly toxic, even if that champion is not overpowered and doesn't need a nerf -- Poppy is a great example of this.

AshenFox3 votes

There is a difference between 'popular' and 'omgwtfritonerfpls'. It's just that a good portion of the player base doesn't actually see the difference. 'Popular' means that it sees a lot of play. 'omgwtfritonerfpls' champs have something fundamentally wrong in their kit that makes them crowd 90-99% of other champions for that role.

This, however, does mean that champions with 'omgwtf' issues tend to rise to the top however, which in turn makes them popular. Which in turn means that they get some nerfs to balance things out.

Want an example? Nidalee

She has some inordinate power in her kit. Spears that can be hard for some people to dodge, which follows up with a free gap closer and 2 ap scaling nukes. So, in effect, when 1 spear lands, at mid to max range, you can get nuked 3 times. 2 of which cost nothing and are on low CD. The community has been crying about her needing some kind of adjustment since she was able to mark neutral monsters, mainly because it transformed a champ that needed a lane to function, into a hyper mobile jungler that hits you with a spear from where you cant see while you're in lane, then leaps from the fog of war to nuke you AGAIN. And when you try to chase her, she runs into a bush and spams leap to run away.

Did Riot cave to community pressure and nerf her? Nope. Are they keeping an eye on her because they're worried she might be crowding out other champs or might have some toxic play elements? Yes. But they do that for EVERY champion in the game. From Aatrox to Zyra every chap gets watched to make sure that no patch, or buff, pushes them into such a dominate position that there is NO COUNTER.

Remember, League isn't about Perfect Balance, but by that same argument there can't be a champ that counters EVERYTHING that it goes up against in it's role. If that champion exists, it needs to be changed. That's just a fact of the game.

disregardable2 votes

I'm going to disagree as a whole through a specific example.Jinx I've mained her since November. She has one of the stronger laning phases of any ADC. With an AOE-700 range auto-attack, she is the safest ADC in the game once laning is over and teamfights begin. If she goes into teamfights fed, the game is almost over for you.

What you said about waiting for her to exhaust abilities is untrue, because she doesn't need them to kill you with her inherent attack speed steroid and huge range. It's very unlikely she's going to be sloppy because of her high range-1 shot waveclear.

Most importantly, if all you do is sit under your tower, she is going to leave lane a heavily farmed goddess. She will wreck your teamfights, and she will eventually kill you. When she isn't directly countered, she is Rito's gift to marksmen mains.

VOlCE5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=73y0Z772,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-27T03:59:16.989+0000)

I'm going to disagree as a whole through a specific example.Jinx I've mained her since November. She has one of the stronger laning phases of any ADC. With an AOE-700 range auto-attack, she is the safest ADC in the game once laning is over and teamfights begin. If she goes into teamfights fed, the game is almost over for you.

What you said about waiting for her to exhaust abilities is untrue, because she doesn't need them to kill you with her inherent attack speed steroid and huge range. It's very unlikely she's going to be sloppy because of her high range-1 shot waveclear.

Most importantly, if all you do is sit under your tower, she is going to leave lane a heavily farmed goddess. She will wreck your teamfights, and she will eventually kill you. When she isn't directly countered, she is Rito's gift to marksmen mains.

A specific example would only help my argument out, actually.... <3

Almost any assassin/bruiser can shut her down hard - which enforces the need to collaborate with your teammates instead of deciding "gg jinx too op and needs a nerf." She dropped her snappers on someone (this would be her sloppy play, not every Jinx is a god and going to hit everyone chasing her)? Have someone else go in and wreck her. You say Jinx is scariest late game, in teamfights, when she is fed or has sufficient cs? There you go, that's what you need to know to counter her. Work with your mates to shut her down hard while she is laning, before she can get fed/farm, or send an assassin to the backline to melt her first in a teamfight.

There are many methods of countering; playing completely safe and farming is not the only option and is obviously not going to be the best in every situation. This is why it would be nice to have Riot host threads showing how to counter and shut down champions. (Because people think - like this - that there is only one or two available options when losing a lane, instead of finding other ways to shut champions down.)

There is no reason in this situation to be like, "Welp, better nerf Jinx."

disregardable1 votes

shut her down hard while she is laning

I've had teams that do that. Especially lately, I'm starting to see 4 people bot more frequently and much earlier. As long as I don't die, it delays but does not stop my epic quest of smashing everyone on your team's faces in with right clicks. Or you just all fail horrifically and I get fed that much faster. That happens too. That's why you shouldn't teamfight at level 3 when there's a jinx on the enemy team. Just don't do it.

I mean realistically, not a lot assassins are going to be able to reach her from the backline of their team to the backline of her team, and telling people to just coordinate with your team is just unreliable advice in general. In low elo, your team coordinates with you, not the other way around. Trying to shot call, asking for ganks, etc is only going to get a "Learn to play, we can't babysit you all day" from your team. If they want to focus Syndra and Olaf instead, there is nothing you can do about it.

VOlCE4 votes

"In low elo" is the only place where this problem occurs without people discovering a solution. No one champion is a god; it's the person playing the champion in tandem with all the other elements in the game. I know Jinx hurts like hell, especially late game, but I have won multiple matches against her and had no problem whatsoever. Even laning against her (I usually supp if I'm bot lane) I can zone her hard and feed my adc like a good dog. Is this because my supp champ is too op and your team has no chance? No, it's because I know when to engage and how to counter her.

Similarly, as a carry, I can shred a map as Diana, without fail, every game. Does that mean Diana is too op and can't be countered? Heck no, I've seen teams cooperate beautifully to shut my fed tail down, and even in games where I've been 22/9/15 I've seen people learn to focus me down or avoid me to accomplish other objectives as a team - AND WIN. I'm a decent Diana player and I know it, come at me with Yasuo/Riven/Syndra/Irelia/any of my counters, I don't care. I will hold the lane against you and still eat you, or get fed elsewhere. But your problem facing me is never "you can't counter me Diana is too op," it's the fact that I know how to counter-play, and sit there and meticulously calculate what I should do and when. This is all that ever needs to be done.

**It's not the champion or their kit, ever ever ever. ** Again, this logic is why people are whining for unneeded nerfs.

And I don't understand your argument, anyways. As a Jinx main, you're arguing against Jinx - are you suggesting she needs a nerf? What a way to discredit all your practice with her. :/

disregardable1 votes

No one champion is a god.

Pre. Nerf. Lucian. Enough said. Do you remember him? I do. I played against him pretty much every game when I first started ranked. I just inevitably fed like crazy. I'm really happy he's gone.

Also, I had lots of practice with my last main, MF, too. I never got a penta every week with Miss Fortune. I've had lots of practice with Udyr, Morgana, and Quinn, and I've never even gotten a penta with any of them. Nope. Jinx is broken. She's unfair to play against. She is strong, consistent, and safe. Nerf her Q range and increase the CD on her ult and she'll still be top tier.

VOlCE4 votes

Yet again, you have missed that I have told you I can nuke a Jinx easily, and have beaten her down in multiple matches... It's not HER, it's the** person playing her**. Just learn to counter or team up with your mates, nng.

Same with pre-nerf Lu. Not terrifying in the least until someone "inevitably feeds them" and you're left cleaning up what you can reach of the mess.

But yep, Jinx is a strong adc; guess she needs a nerf.

I guess that's the only opinion you can get out of people about a decent champion.

EDIT: Nerf Jinx's Q range..? I beg your pardon; that makes absolutely no sense if you know what her Q is.

DarksideEric2 votes

What I hate most about the community's opinion on balancing is that they often times demand variety and viability, but then scream for nerfs when a Champion that is shown in a new position on the map and is doing fairly or really well against previous dominators becomes prominent.

We go from...

"ALL WE SEE IS SHYVANA, RENEKTON AND DR. MUNDO TOP! WE WANT MORE THAN 3 PICKS!"

So people find out Ryze is a very good choice in the Top Lane, particularly against some of those above mentioned Champions.

What do we get after Ryze moves Top?

"RYZE BEATS MELEE BRUISERS! OP! NERF!"

What players don't realize (or do know and just don't give a shit) is that you're never going to get variety in this game (I stress THIS game) if you're constantly only wanting one particular class of Champion in one particular area of the map. If you think only Melee Bruisers / Tanks should be Top Lane, then of course all you're going to see every game is the three best ones.

If you want actual variety, then start learning to play the game and building your team to make the required effort to counter something that needs countering.

Ryze beating up your Melee Bruiser? Take Brand or Syndra Top to beat the crap out of Ryze. "But Brand is too easily ganked in such a long lane with no mobility!" Then take that into account with how you play. Pick a Jungler who can easily make pit stops Top to help Ryze if he needs it. Invest more into Wards. But at least make the attempt to actually evolve with how the game is going rather than just constantly bleating for nerfs because you can't play Mundo anymore without a 100% success rate.

Not only that... if you took a Mage Top that can smash Ryze, a frail non-mobile Brand for instance, and then your opponent picked a deadly Melee Bruiser that can slice Brand in two if he even looks at him... you just made another Champion viable.

"Variety" in this game (again, stressing THIS game) is not achieved by everyone being "viable" in the sense that every Champion is balanced as evenly as possible, variety is achieved by utilizing the large Champion pool at your fingertips instead of just complaining that you can't play Mundo anymore because Ryze beats him, so therefore Ryze deserves nerfs.

Raptamei1 votes

{quoted}

"Variety" in this game (again, stressing THIS game) is not achieved by everyone being "viable" in the sense that every Champion is balanced as evenly as possible, variety is achieved by utilizing the large Champion pool at your fingertips instead of just complaining that you can't play Mundo anymore because Ryze beats him, so therefore Ryze deserves nerfs.

So you need to own every champion before you can play ranked. Cool.

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