Riot: Why are there no Lee Sin changes?

CaptLagg·Mar 1, 2015·84 votes·4,871 views

In your recent reddit you indicated that 3 particular champs are crowding out jungle diversity and then proceeded to produce some changes to compensate. However, none of those changes had anything to do with Lee Sin. Why is that? Not altering Lee Sin has made you into the biggest bunch of hypocrite designers because clearly you think he is too strong for whatever reason but do nothing against it.

I'm going to be honest here, not acknowledging the communities angst over this champ is a very big mistake. Making changes to every other meta strong champ and leaving him the same way is a big mistake.

NOONE CAN TAKE YOUR DESIGN PRINCIPLES SERIOUSLY ANYMORE.

Either acknowledge there is a plan for Lee Sin and let the community know what direction you are expecting to take or say to the community that you will not touch Lee for whatever your reason is.

We expect honest open communication and leadership from you in this matter, something that has been absent for far too long.

97 Comments

bradMar 1, 201529 votes

honestly i will not even care if they dont change him if they just come out and fucking say it

completely ignoring every lee sin thread on this website is getting really old

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20154 votes

Like I commented, Rioters don't actually come here to look at feedback and make changes. The boards are for us to talk to eachother, which they don't realize doesn't do any fucking good when we aren't the ones who make changes.

S H A Y C 0Mar 2, 20152 votes

I attempted to convey my concerns to Riot through an email to support..i got a reply for every message i sent, but they directed me to the forums where they claimed to be reading...obviously they dont, you know...cuz lee sin. Riots answer to lack of jungle diversity was nerf anyone that isnt lee sin that can jungle really well now...how does that help anything?

The EcdysiastMar 3, 20152 votes

Exactly. They don't care about their players and the game will die because of it. When you use the only reliable way to talk to employees, you only get the Support staff, and they redirect you to the forums, which-- I've JUST received an email stating this-- they don't and can't "force" Rioters to look at. Even though they're a company and they pay these people and can fire their asses for not doing what they say.

RaptameiMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. They don't care about their players and the game will die because of it. When you use the only reliable way to talk to employees, you only get the Support staff, and they redirect you to the forums, which-- I've JUST received an email stating this-- they don't and can't "force" Rioters to look at. Even though they're a company and they pay these people and can fire their asses for not doing what they say.

Or because the boards community is a bunch of gibbons?

The EcdysiastMar 3, 20151 votes

Gibbons or not, these are the people who play the game and provide feedback. If they aren't listening to customers, they should expect to see a drop in players.

RaptameiMar 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Gibbons or not, these are the people who play the game and provide feedback. If they aren't listening to customers, they should expect to see a drop in players.

So when this brilliant community whines that whichever champion has the highest KD in bronze is OP, Riot should just go and nerf it?

The EcdysiastMar 7, 20151 votes

Yes. You cater to the most customers or the highest paying ones. Seeing as everyone pays the same price for everything, the former is the only option.

Lao Fu the TigerMar 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi Im Brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6V7h6AGm,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-01T23:04:40.860+0000)

honestly i will not even care if they dont change him if they just come out and fucking say it

completely ignoring every lee sin thread on this website is getting really old

Phreak already commented on Lee Sin within the last couple months talking about his balance.

Why does the community demand talk and then cover their ears saying "LALALA I can't hear you" when something is said?

ShinjusukeMar 2, 20155 votes

Because Phreak started that comment thread with the disclaimer of "i'm speaking as a player, not a balancer/designer", and in addition his reasoning was either biased or ignorant no matter how you slice it.

His defense for Lee Sin boiled down to "He's played 4x more than any other jungler purely because he's just 4 times more 'fun' than any other jungler, and despite 3 years of domination in his role and seeing more action than a .25c hooker, he's balanced because his 50% win rate says so".

Sure I'm paraphrasing and he probably would throw a bunch of beat-around-the-bush wording in there, but that was his argument. Basically A) someone says "i'm not representing Riot with what i'm about to say" does not qualify as a "Riot response" and B) someone who literally throws out all other data and user experience reports available if it contradicts his viewpoint is not a legitimate source for discussion on the topic.

I'm not trying to bash you or anything, just clarifying why the "Phreak commented once..." statement isn't relevant.

Lao Fu the TigerMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Because Phreak started that comment thread with the disclaimer of "i'm speaking as a player, not a balancer/designer", and in addition his reasoning was either biased or ignorant no matter how you slice it.

His defense for Lee Sin boiled down to "He's played 4x more than any other jungler purely because he's just 4 times more 'fun' than any other jungler, and despite 3 years of domination in his role and seeing more action than a .25c hooker, he's balanced because his 50% win rate says so".

Sure I'm paraphrasing and he probably would throw a bunch of beat-around-the-bush wording in there, but that was his argument. Basically A) someone says "i'm not representing Riot with what i'm about to say" does not qualify as a "Riot response" and B) someone who literally throws out all other data and user experience reports available if it contradicts his viewpoint is not a legitimate source for discussion on the topic.

I'm not trying to bash you or anything, just clarifying why the "Phreak commented once..." statement isn't relevant.

No, it actually is entirely relevant. For many reasons. While he wasn't commenting from the perspective of a balance team member, his points about Lee's balance are still legitimate.

And no, his defense for Lee didn't boil down to "he's fun to play" (although that definitely a point he made). His defense boiled down to yes, he's a decent jungler, but no, he's not overpowered. He said that Lee's perceived strength is much higher than his actual strength. Which is true. Lee is, this season, nothing more than an average jungler. Season 5 has really kicked him out of being a top-tier pick into being just a "meh" pick like many other junglers. Eedat commented below with a great post analyzing some of Lee's attributes in the new jungle and why he falls behind current popular junglers.

Nobody is throwing out "all other data and user experience." We are using it. And from that data, we can objectively say that Lee is a mediocre jungler (yes, annoying, yes, popular since he fits many roles). And as Eedat said, "No, its not "because he has a high skill cap so low ELO players ruin his win rate". His win rate floats right around 46% all the way through Diamond."

Believe what you want. Yes, he is annoying. Yes, he's popular. No, he is not in the least tiny bit overpowered (overloaded, maybe), especially since he isn't a priority pick in LCS, nor has he been winning games in any queue, period, regardless of skill.

I think the core problem of the community is that they feel like if a champion is frustrating to play against, they are unbalanced or OP. The fact of the matter is, these are simply not the same thing.

EedatMar 2, 201521 votes

Lee Sin is barely a middle of the pack jungler currently. There I said it.

Lee Sin hasn't been the best option since the season 5 jungle rolled around. Lee Sin's win rate has plummeted to a steady 46%. And no, its not "because he has a high skill cap so low ELO players ruin his win rate". His win rate floats right around 46% all the way through Diamond. Here's his problem. He has a small window in the early game where he is strong before his high base damages start to fall off in the mid game. If he isn't successful in using this window, he falls off hard. He becomes a glorified damage sponge in the late game with an occasional #LC$BIGPLAYZ kick that gets himself killed almost everytime anyway. Other champions have the same window in the early game, but are much more useful in the mid to late game. Nidalee is superior to Lee in pretty much every way.

There are many junglers that do the job of disrupting the back line way better than him I.E. Vi, Jarvan, WW, Fiddle, Sejuani, etc. All of these junglers also have a better clear than him which is very important because the season 5 jungle is much tougher and repeated nerfs to machete in both price and stats have really taken a toll on a lot of junglers. A lot of junglers that are doing so well right now are only popular again because they can actually survive the jungle effectively. Jarvan had his bonus armor and decent clear (his winrate has dropped below 50% since the removal of his bonus armor by the way). Vi has a great clear and her passive shield. WW can keep himself topped off without potions. Fiddle never needs to back while he has mana. Has anyone every wondered why these junglers became so popular again overnight when season 5 rolled around? Its because a bunch of junglers struggle in the new jungle. Frequent backs and extra gold spent on a ton of potions put them at a severe disadvantage. Especially when Lee has poor scaling into teamfights/late game

Another problem that Lee Sin faces is that he just isnt that great in the high mobility meta. Do you know how difficult it is to land a Q on a mid/late game Kalista? Or Katarina? Or Ahri? Or Leblanc? Or Kassadin? Is it impossible? No. Is it easy to dodge his Q on such high mobility champions? Yes. People are always so quick to point out his early game strength, yet neglect to mention his mid/late game scaling is horrible if he's not snowballing. There are a dozen junglers that are ten times better to have than Lee in team fights.

His damage only scales with bonus AD as opposed to flat AD scaling. This means that he has zero damage scaling while he is building the tank items that are necessary for a bruiser while most other champions innately scale better with their flat scaling just by leveling up.

There is such a fuss going on about 'kicking Veigar while he's down' yet everyone wants to see Lee Sin nerfed into oblivion when he's in a worse spot than Veigar was. Why? Because Lee is used in the LCS? Even though that between EU and NA LCS he has a record of 11W-19L? Is a 37% win rate in the LCS and terrible SoloQ statistics really a sign that a champion warrants nerfs? Should we really just gut his entire kit because that time he ward jumped over a wall and got away? Or occasionally makes a flashy play with his ult? If you take away Lee's utility he's left with nothing.

So can we all take a chill pill? Lee Sin is not really a problem currently. I don't think he will be much of a problem in the near future either as RIOT is working on making jungle bruisers less viable. Emphasis on 'less' viable, not make them completely useless. A bunch of junglers that offer way more utility to a team are going to be buffed next patch and I doubt Lee will be able to keep up.

blujadajhdjaMar 2, 20152 votes

I'm honestly pretty surprised that the community didn't bash this post and downvote it into oblivion after hating the hardest they possibly can out of Lee Sin. That's literally how well it was written, good job, sir.

EedatMar 3, 20151 votes

So am I lol and thank you

AuryielMar 3, 20154 votes

Trim away unnecessary stats and then revisit him to strengthen his identity.

Riot is willing to utterly destroy champions to do so.

Why should Lee be an exception?

Veigar was hardly a problem before. Almost no one played him, unlike Lee, yet for some reason he becomes a priority champion for a rework.

Cass was not a problem either, but because of some half-assed lore event she suddenly becomes something that needs to be fixed.

And yet for the sake of whatever identity Riot decided to shove down our throats, these champions were nerfed to shit tier.

You know, I sure as hell could use a period of time where Lee Sin is not picked or banned in over half of the pro matches while Riot figures out if they should lessen his burst or something...

EedatMar 3, 20151 votes

Yet Lee Sin's win rate in all ELOs was/is lower than Veigar's pre-patch win rate.

Lee Sin is just the victim of the LoL community circlejerk where its just popular to bash him for upvotes even though hes not that good currently. Everyone was so quick to react to 'kicking Veigar when he's down' yet they want to see Lee completely gutted when he's in a worse spot than Veigar was

MatezoideMar 2, 201517 votes

It doesnt even matter how good Lee Sin is atm. Everyone is just tired of seeing his obnoxious face every single game.

kunkudunkMar 2, 20154 votes

This entirely. I really wouldn't care if he had a 40% win rate, if his play rate stays as high as it is I just want him to be gone. It isn't fun constantly playing against him.

ZazushaMar 1, 201513 votes

They cannot directly touch leesin. It's a hidden Clause in their balance team's contract.

They have been attempting to reduce his power, But making Sweeping nerfs to every jungler that has any similarity to him, (Building same Smite upgrade and jungle enchant)

SookoMar 2, 201513 votes

Changing him now would be a... Deadlee Sin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

KarfussMar 2, 20156 votes

The issue with most overpowered champions is that they have too much in their kit to be considered healthy.

He has;

% HP execute (Q) Two gap closers/creators (Q and W) Shield (W) Sustain (lifesteal) (W) An attack speed steroid (passive) AoE waveclear (E) Soft AoE CC (slow) (E) Hard CC (R)

Honestly, the only things he lacks is true damage, damage over time and invisibility.

He just has too much in his kit and a lot of new champions are like that. Riot sees: more abilities = more fun = more sales. Even if it is detrimental to the balance of the game. The only way Lee Sin will be fixed is via a complete rework.

Nameless VoiceMar 2, 20151 votes

You forgot his AoE disenage/knockback.

KarfussMar 2, 20151 votes

Hard CC (R)

Nameless VoiceMar 2, 20151 votes

Disengage-knockback is stronger than hard CC. It allows him to get rid of dangers near him, or push an enemy into danger. His ult would be a lot less powerful if it was just an in-place knockup or stun.

pleepMar 2, 20156 votes

What do u guys not understand about ...... literally no one outside of the lol-boards circlejerk has a problem with lee sin?

riot has 5 regions and hundreds of different player bases to cater too, you guys dont represent the leauge community

LyraSonaMar 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

What do u guys not understand about ...... literally no one outside of the lol-boards circlejerk has a problem with lee sin?

riot has 5 regions and hundreds of different player bases to cater too, you guys dont represent the leauge community

So true. This forum is quite literally the only place where you find people biatching about Lee Sin. Everywhere else just accepts him without a second thought, and I'm sure a lot of players have fun playing him. There's no reason to nerf him. He's just very strong, but he bleeds just like everybody else.

Nameless VoiceMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted} and I'm sure a lot of players have fun playing him.

It's far more about people not having fun playing against him.

LyraSonaMar 2, 20153 votes

Then get some skills. I never have trouble against Lee Sin.

SEKAIMar 2, 20152 votes

If only "skill" is the only issue here.

Yer real life is kinda like that, but here we're talking about video game balancing, shouldn't it be you know, fairer? It's not a lot to ask.

JunkοMar 2, 20153 votes

Actually they do. Reddit also has people bitching about Lee Sin, but Reddit actually has mods that do something

pleepMar 2, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6V7h6AGm,comment-id=000c0003,timestamp=2015-03-02T13:23:56.611+0000)

Actually they do. Reddit also has people bitching about Lee Sin, but Reddit actually has mods that do something

Most people on reddit, and most real life lol players view lee sin as caitlyn. A solid dependable champion that always will be a comfort pick for people who know how to play him. He is this games best designed champion and he has tons of counterplay.

Could u imagine if riot nerfed caitlyn? Lee sin is in the same position. They won't nerf him because they got him right from the start.

The only place where lee sin is an issue is the pro-scene, and even there he is hardly even banned. The professional scene has made it well known that they have no problem with lee sin, so its quite honestly silly when solo-q players complain about him. Hes not a major issue for us, when was the last time you saw lee banned?

as a solo-q player i would ban amumu over lee anyday of the week

SEKAIMar 2, 20153 votes

A solid dependable champion that always will be a comfort pick for people who know how to play him. He is this games best designed champion and he has** tons of counterplay**.

You just contradicted yourself in your first 2 sentences.

Cait wouldn't get a nerf, at best gets some tweaking and power shift here and there, because while strong early she doesn't have a kit that is twice the size of standard kit size, this difference alone is HUGE.

The only place where lee sin is an issue is the pro-scene, and even there he is hardly even banned.

Up until the end of S4, he has maintained a 90+% pick/ban ratio and sporting 50+% win ratio in most if not all tourneys if I am not wrong. His pro-scene is a BIG issue.

Hes not a major issue for us, when was the last time you saw lee banned?

Solo queue is not the same as pro scene, they work differently and they ofc, ban differently.

pleepMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You just contradicted yourself in your first 2 sentences.

Cait wouldn't get a nerf, at best gets some tweaking and power shift here and there, because while strong early she doesn't have a kit that is twice the size of standard kit size, this difference alone is HUGE.

Up until the end of S4, he has maintained a 90+% pick/ban ratio and sporting 50+% win ratio in most if not all tourneys if I am not wrong. His pro-scene is a BIG issue.

Solo queue is not the same as pro scene, they work differently and they ofc, ban differently

Miss the point more.

There is no contradiction in my post.

The pros and coaches were the ONES who stopped the planned lee nerfs in season 4. they have no problem with him

jv21blU7oDMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Solo queue is not the same as pro scene, they work differently and they ofc, ban differently.

This is a very important point to make and yet all the Silver tier players will keep whining about Lee like he's a huge problem to the game when they themselves are just bad (and really no one that plays Lee in Silver is gonna play him good so stop kidding yourselves already).

SEKAIMar 2, 20152 votes

Bud this is not how balance works,

Under no circumstances should players get rewarded immensely because he mains a champ, while the reason why he can play him every game without problem is because this particular champ can't be counterpick by default.

What about that guy who mains multiple situational picks so he got just the right man for every case, why shouldn't he get rewarded more for playing multiple champions and picking different specialists for every situations instead of playing this be-all-end-all generalist that ultimately overpowers them the higher elo he goes?

I can't see this being fair or healthy at all.

Everyone puts down the same effort, just different style of progression, that's why they are in the same elo to begin with, why should some champs be more rewarding than others?

jv21blU7oDMar 2, 20151 votes

What I am saying is that your perception (and that of many other low skill players) about Lee are wrong to start with. First of all Lee is not this generalist god that you make him out to be. He used to be that before but after all the latest nerfs he's gotten (especially on his E) and the emergence of more reliable jungle bruisers (Rek'Sai, Vi and J4) he is simply not among the most reliable picks for the jungle anymore.

Lee is all about early map pressure and snowballing which he does a good job of fulfilling with a competent player behind him. However if he does not have enough of a presence early game he pretty much becomes a glorified jumping meat shield by the time the big 5v5 fights start. You could try for a gimmicky insec attempt by this time but unless your accuracy and timing are perfect, chances are high that you'll just flop it and die in the process while accomplishing nothing.

It is true that some champs are more rewarding than others in the same role in an MMR where picks actually matter a lot more (high Diamond upwards) but that's a range where none of you Silver players are at anyway so your complaints about this specific champ are simply not relevant to the skill range in which you're playing at (and they would not be more true even if you played in high MMR for this particular case). This of course does not mean that there aren't problems with overall balance but Lee is not one of the main suspects at the moment.

Lao Fu the TigerMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You just contradicted yourself in your first 2 sentences.

Cait wouldn't get a nerf, at best gets some tweaking and power shift here and there, because while strong early she doesn't have a kit that is twice the size of standard kit size, this difference alone is HUGE.

Up until the end of S4, he has maintained a 90+% pick/ban ratio and sporting 50+% win ratio in most if not all tourneys if I am not wrong. His pro-scene is a BIG issue.

Solo queue is not the same as pro scene, they work differently and they ofc, ban differently.

WAS a big issue. Now even the pros groan when they see a Lee.

Baron of BreadMar 2, 20151 votes

Would you be so kind as to tell us what Lee Sin's counterplay is? I haven't been able to figure any out other than "wait for late game" which isn't really counterplay at all.

pleepMar 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6V7h6AGm,comment-id=000c000300000001,timestamp=2015-03-02T17:14:45.730+0000)

Would you be so kind as to tell us what Lee Sin's counterplay is? I haven't been able to figure any out other than "wait for late game" which isn't really counterplay at all.

Is this a joke? dodge Q bro, ward your jungle and don't let him insec you

lee is one of the most predictable champs in the game at this point, and he can't really do anything late game if he doesn't build almost full tank. In addition he has to keep a sightstone (low combat stats) to maintain full mobility

Baron of BreadMar 2, 20151 votes

Ok, warding is a thing that you do already to counter EVERYONE so it is not a specific counter to Lee. So is dodging skill shots. Not letting him insec you also comes down to dodging a skill shot.

Dodging skill shots is not counterplay. Waiting is not counterplay. Counterjungling a weak early game jungler is counterplay. Diving someone the instant they dropped a stun is counterplay. Pushing a wave heavily against someone with bad wave clear is counterplay.

Is there counterplay to Lee Sin that doesn't involve hoping he didn't make good use of his strengths and dodging his Q? Also, please explain how he is predictable, since I had gotten the impression he was an extremely versatile champion and could end up doing basically anything he wanted.

pleepMar 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6V7h6AGm,comment-id=000c00030000000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-02T20:14:10.297+0000)

Ok, warding is a thing that you do already to counter EVERYONE so it is not a specific counter to Lee. So is dodging skill shots. Not letting him insec you also comes down to dodging a skill shot.

Dodging skill shots is not counterplay. Waiting is not counterplay. Counterjungling a weak early game jungler is counterplay. Diving someone the instant they dropped a stun is counterplay. Pushing a wave heavily against someone with bad wave clear is counterplay.

Is there counterplay to Lee Sin that doesn't involve hoping he didn't make good use of his strengths and dodging his Q? Also, please explain how he is predictable, since I had gotten the impression he was an extremely versatile champion and could end up doing basically anything he wanted.

"dodging a skill shot is not counterplay"

GG bro.

I think i lost the desire to discuss this with you at that point.

Baron of BreadMar 2, 20152 votes

The reason I say dodging skill shots is not counterplay is because whether or not the skill shot hits is mostly up to the skill shot caster, not the target of the ability (unless that target has strong mobility).

Another reason dodging Lee's skill shot is not very good counterplay is if he hits anything near you, which you have no real control over, he still gets the gap closer. Lee Sin will lose some damage from this, but he is free to either decide to not go in after all or wait a short amount of time to try again.

For me to consider something counterplay it must be something that I can actively use to punish my opponent. Lee's Q cooldown is 7 seconds with no cdr and doesn't use enough energy to prevent him from doing the rest of his combo if he uses his passive. If I have dodged his Q, the only advantage I gained is I didn't take some damage and I have temporarily avoided being in a fight with Lee Sin unless he decides to ward hop to me (if I am ranged I get a bit of time to poke at him if he wasn't max ranging his Q).

In short, dodging his Q accomplishes next to nothing and provides no opportunity to punish him for a mistake, and I therefore do not consider it counterplay. Waiting for late game is not a course of action I can take and I therefore do not consider it counterplay.

If we talked about Morgana I might consider dodging Q counterplay since it is an 11 second cooldown if she has no cdr and is her only strong defense other than her ult against AD types. No Q on her means you can dive her and kill her. No Q on Lee Sin means you can watch him ward hop out or ward hop in, depending on his preference.

Edit: Oh, and if you do have the damage and mobility to make use of his reduced damage output then you have to have at least 3 gapclosers or strong cc. One for the Q distance, one for his ward hop, and one for his ult knock back.

jv21blU7oDMar 2, 20151 votes

Dodging skill shots IS counterplay though. Especially on someone so reliant on it like Lee is. He is predictable in the sense that again he needs to hit Q on you to do anything at all.

No offense but is it really a coincidence that you, that Sekai guy and I would bet every other Lee Sin circle jerk whiner around here are in Silver tier or lower? It's not a coincidence and you all lack game knowledge and game awareness to make a good call to what is truly bullshit mechanics with low counterplay and what is not. I never see anyone that is at least in Platinum tier or higher complain about Lee, this is simply a case of "get better at the game" for all of you.

Baron of BreadMar 2, 20151 votes

Please look at my response to Pleep's response to me. It explains most of my reasoning for the stance I took there.

jv21blU7oDMar 3, 20151 votes

Lee is an early game champion so obviously he is gonna smack you down early game if you try to fight him or if you get caught by him. This is his time to shine so you have to play around it. Ward up, keep an eye on the map, use smart pings etc. It's no secret by now that he is not that great at 5v5 teamfights which occur later on in the game unless he has a clear advantage from his team comp simply being overall better.

Easiest way to kill him is to bait him into using Sonic Wave on you with having a teammate nearby to lock him down/burst him. He gets wrecked by good burst damage before he's had time to itemize for it and by the time he has his effectiveness and overall game impact will usually have dwindled.

I agree that his very high disengage potential is annoying but so what if you don't kill him? I'm gonna tell you another problem that is very clear in low MMR and that is that people focus way too much on fighting and trying to force fights at completely unnecessary times just for the sake of it. If you managed to chunk Lee down and maybe even force an ulti out of him then let him run away and proceed to take a tower/dragon.

I am pretty sick of trying to convince you guys that Lee is not among the most problematic champions right now so I'm gonna end it with this from my part. You can keep on whining and begging for nerfs instead of improving your game sense or mechanics for all I care.

Baron of BreadMar 4, 20151 votes

The problem there is that even if you chunk Lee you will likely not have time to take anything unless you were already nearly set up for it because he does have the ability to sustain back up reasonably quickly. That and if he lands a Q and goes in he can burst hard and fast enough that you get chunked as well before he gets out. You aren't taking advantage of one of Lee's weaknesses, so it isn't counterplay.

I am not saying that Lee Sin is overpowered or the biggest problem, but he is very frustrating to play against because he lacks any counterplay. If you hurt Lee it is because he put himself in harms way, not because you put him in harms way. You wait for him to make such a big mess that not even he can get out, and all the while you have to be sure to not make a single misstep or he will lock you into early game for the next 30 minutes.

Basically I think this: Lee Sin might not be OP, but he could certainly use some changes to make him not feel like he is such an oppressive force to deal with.

TehNACHOMar 1, 20155 votes

Probably because of his already low 46% win rate.

And it's not just bronzies bringing his win rate down either, you can see the trend all the way up to Diamond, and in Master+, he will only occasionally spike above 50%.

JedenVojakMar 1, 20154 votes

Lee Sin isn't overpowered though. If you compare the utility and overall scope of his abilities to other fighters, he is roughly on par with them - he has a mix of mobility, utility, tankiness and damage: he's a quintissential fighter.

The only thing he has over most other fighters is he innately has better self sustain in the jungle due to his shield and life steal/spellvamp, and energy as a resource - this isn't as significant in lane, as farming the lane is much more managable and you will not take as much attrition from the minions themselves (unless you suck like me and like to attack your opponent in the middle of their minion wave). However with the nature of the new changes with the jungle monsters overall being tougher and more damaging, combined with the removal of the sustain from all the jungle items (like spirit stone) we have a situation where the best people at surviving the jungle are those with some tankiness damage and sustain - and Lee Sin just sits at the nexus of that.

SolaxoMar 1, 201517 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin isn't overpowered though. If you compare the utility and overall scope of his abilities to other fighters, he is roughly on par with them - he has a mix of mobility, utility, tankiness and damage: he's a quintissential fighter.

The only thing he has over most other fighters is he innately has better self sustain in the jungle due to his shield and life steal/spellvamp, and energy as a resource - this isn't as significant in lane, as farming the lane is much more managable and you will not take as much attrition from the minions themselves (unless you suck like me and like to attack your opponent in the middle of their minion wave). However with the nature of the new changes with the jungle monsters overall being tougher and more damaging, combined with the removal of the sustain from all the jungle items (like spirit stone) we have a situation where the best people at surviving the jungle are those with some tankiness damage and sustain - and Lee Sin just sits at the nexus of that.

Somehow Riot doesn't have problem with nerfing already weak champions