Riot: Why are there no Lee Sin changes?

CaptLagg·3/1/2015, 8:47:33 PM·84 votes·4,871 views

In your recent reddit you indicated that 3 particular champs are crowding out jungle diversity and then proceeded to produce some changes to compensate. However, none of those changes had anything to do with Lee Sin. Why is that? Not altering Lee Sin has made you into the biggest bunch of hypocrite designers because clearly you think he is too strong for whatever reason but do nothing against it.

I'm going to be honest here, not acknowledging the communities angst over this champ is a very big mistake. Making changes to every other meta strong champ and leaving him the same way is a big mistake.

NOONE CAN TAKE YOUR DESIGN PRINCIPLES SERIOUSLY ANYMORE.

Either acknowledge there is a plan for Lee Sin and let the community know what direction you are expecting to take or say to the community that you will not touch Lee for whatever your reason is.

We expect honest open communication and leadership from you in this matter, something that has been absent for far too long.

97 Comments

brad3/1/2015, 11:04:40 PM29 votes

honestly i will not even care if they dont change him if they just come out and fucking say it

completely ignoring every lee sin thread on this website is getting really old

Eedat3/2/2015, 1:05:48 AM21 votes

Lee Sin is barely a middle of the pack jungler currently. There I said it.

Lee Sin hasn't been the best option since the season 5 jungle rolled around. Lee Sin's win rate has plummeted to a steady 46%. And no, its not "because he has a high skill cap so low ELO players ruin his win rate". His win rate floats right around 46% all the way through Diamond. Here's his problem. He has a small window in the early game where he is strong before his high base damages start to fall off in the mid game. If he isn't successful in using this window, he falls off hard. He becomes a glorified damage sponge in the late game with an occasional #LC$BIGPLAYZ kick that gets himself killed almost everytime anyway. Other champions have the same window in the early game, but are much more useful in the mid to late game. Nidalee is superior to Lee in pretty much every way.

There are many junglers that do the job of disrupting the back line way better than him I.E. Vi, Jarvan, WW, Fiddle, Sejuani, etc. All of these junglers also have a better clear than him which is very important because the season 5 jungle is much tougher and repeated nerfs to machete in both price and stats have really taken a toll on a lot of junglers. A lot of junglers that are doing so well right now are only popular again because they can actually survive the jungle effectively. Jarvan had his bonus armor and decent clear (his winrate has dropped below 50% since the removal of his bonus armor by the way). Vi has a great clear and her passive shield. WW can keep himself topped off without potions. Fiddle never needs to back while he has mana. Has anyone every wondered why these junglers became so popular again overnight when season 5 rolled around? Its because a bunch of junglers struggle in the new jungle. Frequent backs and extra gold spent on a ton of potions put them at a severe disadvantage. Especially when Lee has poor scaling into teamfights/late game

Another problem that Lee Sin faces is that he just isnt that great in the high mobility meta. Do you know how difficult it is to land a Q on a mid/late game Kalista? Or Katarina? Or Ahri? Or Leblanc? Or Kassadin? Is it impossible? No. Is it easy to dodge his Q on such high mobility champions? Yes. People are always so quick to point out his early game strength, yet neglect to mention his mid/late game scaling is horrible if he's not snowballing. There are a dozen junglers that are ten times better to have than Lee in team fights.

His damage only scales with bonus AD as opposed to flat AD scaling. This means that he has zero damage scaling while he is building the tank items that are necessary for a bruiser while most other champions innately scale better with their flat scaling just by leveling up.

There is such a fuss going on about 'kicking Veigar while he's down' yet everyone wants to see Lee Sin nerfed into oblivion when he's in a worse spot than Veigar was. Why? Because Lee is used in the LCS? Even though that between EU and NA LCS he has a record of 11W-19L? Is a 37% win rate in the LCS and terrible SoloQ statistics really a sign that a champion warrants nerfs? Should we really just gut his entire kit because that time he ward jumped over a wall and got away? Or occasionally makes a flashy play with his ult? If you take away Lee's utility he's left with nothing.

So can we all take a chill pill? Lee Sin is not really a problem currently. I don't think he will be much of a problem in the near future either as RIOT is working on making jungle bruisers less viable. Emphasis on 'less' viable, not make them completely useless. A bunch of junglers that offer way more utility to a team are going to be buffed next patch and I doubt Lee will be able to keep up.

Matezoide3/2/2015, 1:41:35 AM17 votes

It doesnt even matter how good Lee Sin is atm. Everyone is just tired of seeing his obnoxious face every single game.

Zazusha3/1/2015, 8:58:26 PM13 votes

They cannot directly touch leesin. It's a hidden Clause in their balance team's contract.

They have been attempting to reduce his power, But making Sweeping nerfs to every jungler that has any similarity to him, (Building same Smite upgrade and jungle enchant)

Sooko3/2/2015, 12:14:07 AM13 votes

Changing him now would be a... Deadlee Sin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

pleep3/2/2015, 3:54:16 AM6 votes

What do u guys not understand about ...... literally no one outside of the lol-boards circlejerk has a problem with lee sin?

riot has 5 regions and hundreds of different player bases to cater too, you guys dont represent the leauge community

Karfuss3/2/2015, 12:36:27 AM6 votes

The issue with most overpowered champions is that they have too much in their kit to be considered healthy.

He has;

% HP execute (Q) Two gap closers/creators (Q and W) Shield (W) Sustain (lifesteal) (W) An attack speed steroid (passive) AoE waveclear (E) Soft AoE CC (slow) (E) Hard CC (R)

Honestly, the only things he lacks is true damage, damage over time and invisibility.

He just has too much in his kit and a lot of new champions are like that. Riot sees: more abilities = more fun = more sales. Even if it is detrimental to the balance of the game. The only way Lee Sin will be fixed is via a complete rework.

TehNACHO3/1/2015, 8:57:17 PM5 votes

Probably because of his already low 46% win rate.

And it's not just bronzies bringing his win rate down either, you can see the trend all the way up to Diamond, and in Master+, he will only occasionally spike above 50%.

JedenVojak3/1/2015, 9:44:15 PM4 votes

Lee Sin isn't overpowered though. If you compare the utility and overall scope of his abilities to other fighters, he is roughly on par with them - he has a mix of mobility, utility, tankiness and damage: he's a quintissential fighter.

The only thing he has over most other fighters is he innately has better self sustain in the jungle due to his shield and life steal/spellvamp, and energy as a resource - this isn't as significant in lane, as farming the lane is much more managable and you will not take as much attrition from the minions themselves (unless you suck like me and like to attack your opponent in the middle of their minion wave). However with the nature of the new changes with the jungle monsters overall being tougher and more damaging, combined with the removal of the sustain from all the jungle items (like spirit stone) we have a situation where the best people at surviving the jungle are those with some tankiness damage and sustain - and Lee Sin just sits at the nexus of that.

Saianna3/2/2015, 2:37:38 PM2 votes

Because Lee has hidden passive "nerf immunity"...