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Yasuo is oppressive to play against in lane

FFiresoul··16 votes·2,133 views

It's really, really unfun having to lane against a Yasuo.

-He can dash in, outtrade you due to his passive, and dash out. This doesn't cost him any finite resource since he is manaless, and his cooldowns are very short so the frequency with which he can do this is oppressive.

-He can just constantly push your lane in, again without having to worry about managing a resource like mana...Now, before you say "call your jungler to gank him" - that's not always a reliable option in solo q. Maybe my jungler got invaded and put behind early, maybe he's someone like warwick who can't do anything before level 6, maybe our bot lane is feeding and he needs to babysit there, maybe he's just plain bad at jungling....there are a million reasons why this isn't a good enough answer. A champion that can constantly shove lane, without costing any mana, and having all the mobility and outplay potential that he does (he can windwall my projectiles if he's mechanically good enough; i can't counterplay this no matter how good my mechanics are...he can tornado me to prevent me from gap closing onto him, and the animation is fast enough that i can't really prevent this).

Now, I don't like this kind of low-counterplay, unfun mechanic in the game...but you might be able to at least justify it if the champ's strength was being an early game powerhouse. But Yasuo is a hypercarry. This is due to his Doubled Crit chance and his innate armor pen - his damage scales higher than all but a handful of champs.

Not sure how to change him but something needs to be done. Maybe rework his passive--don't give him a free regenerating shield. Force him to trade intelligently using all the tools (and he has very many) he has.

28 Comments

Inphernal5 votes

I really like the idea of gating his passive by somehow forcing Yasuo to choose between getting his shield for extra defense or not getting his shield for a bit of extra damage or something.

MCBiggah993 votes

This wouldn't help against his early kill pressure, which is astoundingly high, it might even make it easier to FB.

Inphernal1 votes

stop focusing on the variable that doesnt really matter. change it to whatever you like its not like im the one reworking him

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

No, just reduce his damage by 30% while his passive shield is up.

Or make his Q cost flow.

MCBiggah992 votes

The thing about Yasuo is that his early laning is very, very annoying to play against, he has tons of kill pressure. I like going with safe champions who can lock him up, CC him, kite him and screw him over, my favourites being Kennen and Ryze.

Kinder2 votes

Before reading: A lot of things in League are debatable. I'm willing to discuss anything you may disagree with in my post.

He can dash in, outtrade you due to his passive, and dash out. This doesn't cost him any finite resource since he is manaless, and his cooldowns are very short so the frequency with which he can do this is oppressive

Well, yes, that's the point of his passive, so he can actually trade. Most melee champions have some AoE or long range skill shot for trading (Kass has his Q/E to trade; Katarina has her Q to poke; Zed has his Q/W/E combos to trade from afar) , Yasuo has neither of those besides his Tornado. Yasuo should only be going in for a trade when he has his shield. You're saying as if his shield is always up. It's not. You have time to out trade him when he's building up flow and you have a chance to pop his shield before he goes in for a trade.

-He can just constantly push your lane in, again without having to worry about managing a resource like mana

Learn to last hit under turret. Getting shoved into your turret is not a bad thing if you learn how CS while under turret. You can even still try to call for a gank, even if the chances aren't that great. While being shoved under turret is not ideal, you're making it sound as if you have to shove in order to win the lane.

A champion that can constantly shove lane, without costing any mana, and having all the mobility and outplay potential that he does (he can windwall my projectiles if he's mechanically good enough; i can't counterplay this no matter how good my mechanics are...he can tornado me to prevent me from gap closing onto him, and the animation is fast enough that i can't really prevent this)

Most Yasuo's are one-point-wonders with their W until they can't put points into their other abilities. This means in laning phase, the the windwall has a 26 second cooldown (24.7 seconds if he has 5% cdr in masteries). I can't think of a single champion whose ability to lead into a combo (stun/snare/etc) that has a 26 second cooldown. You have more than enough time to go in for a second go to land your abilities. Of course you can't counterplay something like that; it's about learning to bait out important cooldowns so you can try to trade with him fully.

The same can be said for his tornado. Learn to either bait it out engage right after he uses his tornado. He can't get his tornado back for another 16 seconds (15.2 seconds with 5% cdr). Besides, Yasuo will win a lot of the melee ranged matchups. Unless your a melee champion, you shouldn't be dashing directly towards him anyways. You'll want to keep your distance so he can't auto you.

Now, I don't like this kind of low-counterplay, unfun mechanic in the game...but you might be able to at least justify it if the champ's strength was being an early game powerhouse. But Yasuo is a hypercarry. This is due to his Doubled Crit chance and his innate armor pen - his damage scales higher than all but a handful of champs.

I'm not going to debate the level of fun since that's subjective, but it's short-thought to say he has low-counterplay. Yasuo has plenty of counterplay.

  1. Yasuo is melee. He has a harder time dealing with auto-attack harass from ranged champions (A majority of mid laners are ranged)
  2. Randuin's Omen works well against him. Reduced crit / reduced attack speed / more resistances
  3. You can still shove against him. Champions like Anivia/Ziggs/Azir once they get some mana regen.
  4. He's very reliant on fighting on minion waves. If he fights outside of his minions, he only has a single-dash on a 10-6 second per target cooldown. Unless he lands a tornado he's used up his gap closer for the next few seconds.
  5. Point and clicks suck for him. Vi, Annie, Kennen (kind of)/ Taric can all CC him well. Even if he windwalls the CC, his windwall is on a long cooldown.
  6. His ult can be QSS. His ult is a suspension and not a knock-up.
  7. His engages for trades are telegraphed well. Unless you're going into melee range to CS then he has to dash to a minion (or 2) to be able to dash onto you. If he dashes in a danger zone, you need to learn to back off.
  8. His crits are already reduced in damage.
  9. His ult only gives BONUS armor pen. You won't be affected by this if you're not building armor.
  10. Yasuo's Q is a skillshot. It's a short range and a short width skill. People can dodge his Q with practice.
  11. Here's a video explaining how to play against him

Not being gated by mana doesn't mean a whole lot unless you give a better reasoning why no mana is unfair. He's still gated by other limitations that manaless champions don't have.

-Yasuo has to be in your minion wave to shove the wave. This can only be done safely if the enemy has used their CC (so he doesn't get stuck in a wave and take minion damage)

  • He has no decent ranged harass (Syndra has her balls; TF has Q/W/autos). A lot mana people don't have this issue. -This means Yasuo's main way of trading is in melee range. Being in melee range is dangerous at some times. You may not be able to harass someone while under turret unless you join them under the tower; you may not be able react fast enough to a stun or snare.
  • Unless he can get a good knock up while behind, Yasuo has no good way to get back into the game. Most assassins are feast or famine but a lot have some ways to do something to get back into the game (Katarina has a bunch of AoE to deal damage for assists; LeBlanc can provide some CC). The only way back in for Yasuo is to get assists (difficult unless in a 2v1 or got his tornado off) or to get kills (someone else far enough behind that his feast/famine playstyle doesn't matter or again in a 2v1).

A minor side note: Other champions also shove just as well as Yasuo and aren't using mana. Trist/Vlad/Morde/Riven can all shove the wave well without using mana (though Vlad/Morde use some health). I wouldn't say resource-less shoving is an unhealthy mechanic. A person could probably argue learning minion-wave control is unhealthy then since you can learn to shove with just changing how fast and where you've killed the enemy minions at.

My other suggestions is check your build path. He's going to start doing damage after his first item. Two key items against Yasuo would be seekers armgaurd (for laning phase, Zhonyas later) and Morellonomicon. You want the extra armor to avoid his burst and you want the grievous wounds since he builds lifesteal.

FFiresoul1 votes

I really want to thank you for this clear and well thought-out post. It did highlight a few areas about playing against him that hadn't occured to me. However-and I should have specified this in my original post-I'm much more of a top laner than a mid laner, so I encounter him there (i.e. I'm not this ranged mage that a lot of the advice applies to). What top laners would do well vs him? In my experience, even the ones who do, he just constantly shoves the lane so he has the level and minion wave advantage, and if the wave ever gets in a position that's bad for him, he roams (whether to mid lane, or invading my jungle, or TPing bot lane and it happens outside of my ward's vision so I can't TP at the same time as him, and even if I did, remember, the lane is shoved int omy tower not his).

On most of the champs that outscale him,they're weak early on so he's even able to harass me when the wave is closer to my turret. The reason I make such an issue about his manalessness is because he gets to do all this without expending mana, whereas most of the time my champ does. Is it impossible to deal with? No, but it's really frustrating to play against.

And again, as a top laner, I've learned not to rely on my jungler to come gank...yes, obviously, a hyperaggressive yasuo like I'm describing often overextends himself, but I shouldn't have to rely on jungle help to not get abused in lane.

And finally...again, I realize he's not necessarily overpowered, but I find it SO frustrating to play against (when the yasuo is skilled). I feel like he has all the control about when to engage on me (dash in dash out) or disengage on me (dash away, tornado me away), and also has all the control over the minion wave (manaless waveclear on low cooldowns), AND he scales better than me so I feel like the onus is on me to beat him in lane, and not just go even. Does this make sense? Looking forward to your response, and thanks again for your insight.

KsLPraise1 votes

personally i like malphite top against yasuo. Alot of staying power and after an item or two randuin/sunfire, you can just sit on top of hit in lane. also a tp malphite is usually much more helpful than a tp yasuo. During the teamfighting phase if yasuo engages and the team collapses then yay free 4-5 man malphite ult. Now if you want a matchup that is very unfavorable i suggest learning to play jax. Yasuo wont ever be able to really trade with you unless he is fed.

Kinder1 votes

Ahh, sorry. My bad for assuming you were referring to Yasuo mid, I tend to see him there most of the time.

What top laners would do well vs him?

Darius can abuse him very well when he engages onto him. You're somewhat reliant on being able to land your pull when he dashes away, but you can still have a fairly easy lane with Darius.

I think Renekton does well against him. He's a good lane bully AND is able to shove without mana. If Yasuo dashes to you, you can go for a stun.

Lissandra and Lulu are two great champions that work well against assassins. They also have good waveclear (though they need mana first). They're both good in the fact that they can interrupt his combos (polymorph/knock up and slows/roots). It's a somewhat sketchy lane in the first few minutes of the game, but after a seekers and mana, the lane is somewhat chill.

I'd avoid looking purely at being a lane bully though. Yasuo does do well against those that also have a weak early game. Someone like Vlad gets destroyed in that lane. Look at who can damage him and prevent getting dove.

he just constantly shoves the lane so he has the level and minion wave advantage, and if the wave ever gets in a position that's bad for him, he roams (whether to mid lane, or invading my jungle, or TPing bot lane and it happens outside of my ward's vision so I can't TP at the same time as him, and even if I did, remember, the lane is shoved int omy tower not his).

Yasuo's kit does naturally shove waves if he uses all of it. I wouldn't worry too much about loosing level advantage. As long as you're still in XP then you'll both be matched in XP up until he shoves your wave (it'll balance out after his wave is dead).

Now, I'm going to assume you don't have a good source of wave clear. You're going to be granted with a few options on how to deal with Yasuo leaving lane.

  1. Follow him and ping where he's going. You and your jungler/mid laner should be able 2v1 him if he's not fed yet. You can go back to your lane and shove the next wave. Yes, you lost a few minion waves, but you may have just been successful and killed him (300-ish gold). The wave is now also pushing in your favor. Your minions will be pushing towards his turret now. If you shove the lane, you can deny him at least a single minion wave and try balance out the lost XP but come out ahead in gold.
  2. Just shove. If he TP'ed somewhere you can't follow him, then just shove. You can't do anything at this point and need to make him regret his TP by getting his turret (if possible) or deny him as many minions as possible.
  3. Shove the wave and take the chance to back and buy items. You can try to get a minor item advantage this way to help survive the lane.

These aren't only specific to when playing against Yasuo but more of Top Lane manners in responding to your laner's movements.

On most of the champs that outscale him,they're weak early on so he's even able to harass me when the wave is closer to my turret

One thing I see a lot of people struggle with is the concept scaling. If you're a late game champion, just farm. You don't need kills, you need levels and items. Turn the lane into a farm lane, build sustain, and then back before you're in the threat of his all-in. Rinse and repeat until you're valuable to your team. A champion with a better early game is naturally going to have an easier time than his opponent.

Additionally, you don't have to 'beat' him. You can come out of lane behind and try to be more useful late game.

I feel like he has all the control about when to engage on me (dash in dash out) or disengage on me (dash away, tornado me away), and also has all the control over the minion wave (manaless waveclear on low cooldowns), AND he scales better than me so I feel like the onus is on me to beat him in lane, and not just go even. Does this make sense?

You don't have to beat him, you have to go even with him. If you aren't useless to the point the game seems like a 4v5, then you've done a good job.

I would only actually try to turn the lane into a kill based lane if you're a champion that needs kills, at which point the lane is mostly a skill based lane.

I don't really have a comment on him having control of the lane. I don't consider him a control based champion so I can't relate.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

I'm not sure how people lose to Yasuo early game. There are only 4 or 5 champions that he can actually beat and everyone else he goes even with unless he outplays them. You idiots seem to think that his shield and windwall are up 24/7 and pretend that when he uses his W he's literally invincible and it's impossible to poke him at all when the reality is all you have to do is auto attack him once. Don't forget that they even nerfed his shield early game so now it takes him even longer to recharge it back for the shield.

You people act like the only way to trigger his shield is by using all of your abilities on him while it's up instead of just auto attacking him and also feel the need to use all of your skillshots on him after he uses his windwall. If he's pushing your wave that means you can freeze it near your turret and if he has to come up to your turret then you can call for a gank and kill him because of how hilariously bad he is at escaping ganks.

You guys also seem to believe that he has his 3rd charge of Q up 100% of the time and think that you can never initiate on him. You have all of these mentalities that cause you to believe that there is no possible way to beat Yasuo and make you lose from the very beginning of the game.

He has so many weaknesses that you can exploit: -Melee -Extremely Squishy -If you fight him outside of a minion wave he has less mobility than Garen -CC absolutely wrecks him -Randuins Omen cuts a huge part of his damage down.

Don't forget that his crits have 10% reduced damage and on top of that his Q has 25% reduced damage which is pretty huge for him in terms of damage. All of you people that lose to him are just bad at this game and should uninstall.

Dediguise1 votes

For the record it's only armor penetration against bonus armor, so base armor remains equally effective. This means that building tanky against him is punished if you rush the armor portion. Buying a health item however, minimizes any advantage he gets out of that armor pen while making you tankier. With a randuins, his passive and enough points in the defensive mastery tree his crits are reduced by 30%.

Based on these factors it would appear that the best way to deal with him is to play a champion with a focus in the defensive mastery tree. I agree that he is frustrating but he can be built against which is even easier than outplaying him. The reality though is that League is becoming far more team based. If your team composition is unable to deal with his mobility then you will lose.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

For the record it's only armor penetration against bonus armor, so base armor remains equally effective. This means that building tanky against him is punished if you rush the armor portion. Buying a health item however, minimizes any advantage he gets out of that armor pen while making you tankier. With a randuins, his passive and enough points in the defensive mastery tree his crits are reduced by 30%.

Based on these factors it would appear that the best way to deal with him is to play a champion with a focus in the defensive mastery tree. I agree that he is frustrating but he can be built against which is even easier than outplaying him. The reality though is that League is becoming far more team based. If your team composition is unable to deal with his mobility then you will lose.

The problem with building health, however, is that this item exists item 3153

BlunterMonk1 votes

True his double crit AND passive shield make it really hard to kill him. But early game it's possible to starve him fairly well.

Make sure your team is well informed of Yasuos position at all times. And get plenty of wards in the rivers so he cannot roam without you knowing. Play defensively and get your Jungler to assist you if he leaves lane. If your playing a mage get Armguard and boots as quickly as possible to avoid damage.

If he gets a kill off you then it's really hard to bounce back, but if he does not get fed early, he's pretty weak mid game. Like most assassins I think.

I find it really easy to lane against him with good zoners like Orianna and Zyra . Also manaless mages are really good like Kennen .

idk if this helps or not ._.

BadmoonBC1 votes

Man I see so much complaining about yas but I honestly never had an issue with him and I've played against plenty of yasuos. Honestly I am sure I've gotten raped by one here and there but for the most part when I see the enemy is a yasuo I am usually happy because I know I can beat them decently well. Especially with Diana, I can outplay so many yasuos in gold with Diana I've made some of my best plays as a league player with Diana vs yasuo.

Penns1 votes

If youre looking for a balanced game dont play League lel

MacDeath1 votes

lel

Penns1 votes

Its true lel

MacDeath1 votes

Stay away from your minions, proc his shield with AA if in range (e.g. for lasthitting), do your damage spells while his shield is down, force him to abuse windwall without wasting to much mana and play more aggressive if on cd, stay safe if he has ult and knockup ready...

There are probably more counter tips but they worked for me quite well as a mage.

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

A champion that can constantly shove lane, without costing any mana, and having all the mobility and outplay potential that he does (he can windwall my projectiles if he's mechanically good enough; i can't counterplay this no matter how good my mechanics are...he can tornado me to prevent me from gap closing onto him, and the animation is fast enough that i can't really prevent this).

The counterplay is to bait out the Windwall, or get him to put it in a bad place. It has a really long CD.

Just wondering, who do you play against Yasuo?

FFiresoul1 votes

To clarify: yeah, I know I can do these things to try and scramble to keep my head above water in lane, but this is exactly the point...it's a scramble, it's not easy; even if I don't die, Yasuo will have near perfect CS in his sleep (because he's just Q Q Qing the wave every time...mistimed his Q? E to the minion to make sure he doesn't miss. Is that minion in range for me to harass him? E to hit then E back out. He can take wraiths, he can lifesteal, he can stay in lane forever thanks to him being manaless. It's really difficult to keep up CS with a halfway decent Yasuo. AND HE OUTSCALES ME!

Doesn't matter if I ward; he roams and my teammates are prone to die if I don't follow, only if I follow I'm giving up a wave of CS at my tower because he's pushed me in without expending any mana.

I'm not even saying he's necessarily "OP" - it's just very very unfun to play against. He's like Zed on steroids.

Llanite1 votes

He's a duelist which is supposed to be oppressive in 1-on-1 situation.

Working as designed.

You can either play another duelist, ask for gank or suck it up and wait for teamfighting.

Gunpoint1 votes

FYI warwick can do things before level six. With red buff hes still an effective ganker/skirmisher, and if the problem isn't holding them down but actually killing them he can help make sure he won't overtake you.

Ralanr1 votes

Feels more like a lane bully than a hypercarry to be honest. Except for the late game.

Lugg1 votes

He's oppressive out of lane as well.

Croanin1 votes

The real issue I have with Yasuo as well as Riven is their total lack of a resource. Yasuo's shield bar is just the CD for it. Being able to be such a strong duelist while having no resource to manage is such an advantage. Not to mention they can just spam their abilities to last hit with also, so they don't miss much CS.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

This. Also there's no downfall to him messing up. He misses a knock up Q? No worries, he'll have another one up in less than five seconds.

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