@Riot Balance team, may I take a moment of your time?

Arczer·Feb 13, 2015·58 votes·4,854 views

Let's talk about Syndra, shall we?

She went from being played across all regions, in competitive and solo queue, in every division, but was not a pick/ban champion ever in solo queue, and in competitive was only a ban (not a pick) against proficient mains (Bjergsen, etc), to being the least picked, most garbage champion with the lowest win rate in almost every division.

Before we get started, lets look at her current winrate: http://i.imgur.com/V2kDxBr.jpg The lowest % in the game by a pretty decent margin. Source: Korean server, All 5v5 matchmaking queues.

I've played about 1500+ Syndra games in total and I pretty much mastered all of her innate champion mechanics, and played her almost exclusively for over a year, I played her in S3 and S4 to high D1 and close to Master tier: http://i.imgur.com/NCbU50N.jpg So I feel like I have plenty of room to donate my opinion about her balance.

So, let's get into her balance.

Post 5.1 Syndra:

Early Game: Non existent. Your auto attacks hit for more damage than your Q. This is not the case on ANY other champion, why should it be the case on her? It's literally such a bad button that using mana on it early game is actually counter productive, even if you hit the other champion with it. This makes Syndra impossible to pick against ANY mid laner that has either

Good trading - Syndra cannot trade damage efficiently with any other mid laner right now. She doesn't do enough damage, has no sustain, and if you miss, her stun, the cool down is so long that you're zoned for a good 20 seconds, or just dead if they decide to all-in you if you don't have Flash.
Mobility - Syndra was able to shut down roamers in lane because she can harass, push, and force an all-in scenario, making you have to decide between clearing creeps or attempting to roam and perhaps being caught by Syndra in the process.
Asssassins - They simply get on top of you and you have no escape, other than trying to out damage them. Which covers just about every single mid laner in the world ever. So by picking Syndra, you're automatically losing lane.

Any champion that can roam, is an assassin, or can trade well (Zed, Ahri, Kassadin, Fizz, Katarina, etc..) will simply just ignore you and then roam while you're pushing back creeps. If you try to counter-roam, you'll get 1v1'd.

Mid Game: Much much weaker than before. If you were coming out of lane as old Syndra, you might of had maybe 1 to 3 kills coming out of lane at level 10 to 11, so you were doing more damage than you are now (Awful early game = No kills), and even if you didn't kill them, you probably harassed them a lot and had a big CS lead, but forgoing having much less damage now because you can't harass or kill the other laner, your stun is also much much worse. Granted, it might of been a little ridiculous before, but the combination of less damage + a buggy, awful stun (It randomly goes THROUGH champions without stunning them) - is too much. Her midgame isn't even really relevant any more as being a burst mage, if anything, you have some damage and some cc, and no mobility.

Late Game: Syndra never really had a lategame before to begin with, because by this point Assassins can blow you up instantly, Tanks and Bruisers have Guardian Angels, Banshees, and Hexdrinkers/Maws, and Mercury Treads all over the place, supports probably have a locket, etc. You're just not doing much damage to 3/5ths of their team. Now it's worse. Not only did DFG get removed (possibly the only item that let her deal with insanely tanky targets to a degree), but she got nerfed at the same time that other DFG champions got buffed. In my opinion, this is an awful decision. Should you not have waited to remove DFG before nerfing her? She is infact a DFG champion. Why did other DFG champions get buffed, but not her?

So, to summarize:

New syndra has: No early game A -much- weaker mid game No late game Why? Awful laning phase (Non-existent damage output, No passive until level 9, squishy, skill shot reliant) Mediocre damage output mid game (Can't get kills in laning phase, high risk high reward positioning reliance) Buggy mechanics (Stun doesn't always work, even if you hit it properly, QE no longer gives vision.. again..) No mobility No burst late game (No DFG - Syndra isn't focusing squishies, she can't get to the back line, she's focusing bruisers, mages, supports)

As far as balancing her goes, I thought she WAS balanced in the first place to begin with, but if you really feel like she wasn't, heres my opinion of how to fix her:

Return some damage to her Q (this is absolutely crucial, it needs more damage, even if you returned her stun to pre-nerf status, she would still be garbage in my opinion) Fix her stun. It doesn't have to be as good as before where it could sometimes snag a few really gross stuns, but at least make it work properly. She needs damage.

I can pretty much reliably land her terrible stun currently, but it doesn't matter, because her damage is horrendous.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I probably missed some things, I'm not good at vocalizing my opinions. Thanks for reading.

42 Comments

KilaneFeb 13, 201527 votes

To be honest, with the remove of DFG, they should just revert her nerf from 2 previous patches ago. There was no need for further nerf especially with the pointless stun change. It's not a click to win, it's purely positioning and skillshot that requires more abilities and mana to cast to proc stun.

But here's the deal, low ELO HATES and I can't stress this enough "HATES" high skill cap with high rewards because they are simply outmatch by the player who use such champs (ahem ahem Azir). Even Vayne is considered OP to some of them.

In any case, good luck because there is just too many bronze/low silvers disagreeing with you.

Fortunately, Riot admits that Syndra nerf was too harsh on thie forum. If they were to change her however, it might not be a buff.

Because their proposal on buffing veigar due to DFG comepletely breaks him.

Remember how they say they are nerfing lucian? They ended up buffing him.

ArczerFeb 13, 20156 votes

I agree, you make very valid points. Hopefully Riot doesn't need to be so insanely stubborn, admit they were wrong, and just fix it. The game shouldn't be balanced around low Elo ever.

KilaneFeb 13, 20153 votes

Azir, for example, becomes emperor Urgot. >_>

ImpendingDeathFeb 14, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Hopefully Riot doesn't need to be so insanely stubborn, admit they were wrong, and just fix it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

WheatloafFeb 14, 20152 votes

They've already said that they're bumping up the width on Syndra's stun once again.

Gaston du CoteauFeb 14, 20155 votes

More like they said they want to leave her broken, the stun width was perfectly fine as it was and actually matched its visuals. They explicitly said it won't be restored. 50 damage for her Q, what a joke, it's the damage of an auto attack.

With DFG deleted she was already nerfed, a champion which a lot of people would agree was fine as far as balance went.

DecaedeusFeb 14, 20157 votes

Riot has some crazy idea that Syndra's core fantasy is a late-game mage who grows in power throughout the course of the game, hence her passive, etc.

I think that's what's wrong with Syndra; they're trying to force her in this role that will NEVER fit her. They're artifically skewing her power curve towards lategame with the Q nerf, but she just isn't practical as a lategame mage. In my opinion, Riot needs to re-evaluate Syndra's identity as a lane bully, revert her Q damage, buff up her stun box, and be done with it.

Neo CyrusFeb 14, 20154 votes

Meddler basically said they're leaving her nerfed into oblivion - http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/IATlgvQj-so-riot-can-we-admit-the-syndra-nerfs-were-heavy-handed?comment=0003

They won't revert the nerfs + ninja nerfs even with DFG gone.

AlorasenceFeb 13, 201511 votes

You're right.

But they won't do that.

They never revert nerfs because reverting nerfs requires the maturity and wisdom to admit that mistakes were made.

straight4freeFeb 14, 20158 votes

{quoted}

You're right.

But they won't do that.

They never revert nerfs because reverting nerfs requires the maturity and wisdom to admit that mistakes were made.

Lee Sin ward hopping removed

reinstated next patch

LeeSin golden boy is the exception to every rule

StarlighteFeb 13, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, she was hit harder than intended in a way that's left her E feeling like it sometimes misses when it's expected to hit. We're increasing the width on Syndra's stun in 5.4 (and to a greater extent than it was increased in 5.2). It's not going to be as wide as pre 5.1, which was unfairly wide, but should more consistently hit when it looks like it did.

After that change, which is both a feel and a power one, we'll look at where her balance stands, see if it's appropriate to do more.

From a thread yesterday. It's on their radar. Sadly, they seem to be approaching it ultra-conservatively, which means expect to have Syndra be trash tier for several months until they fine-tune this MASSIVELY unneeded nerf to Syndra.

ArczerFeb 13, 20157 votes

{quoted}

which means expect to have Syndra be trash tier for several months until they fine-tune this MASSIVELY unneeded nerf to Syndra.

I laughed and cried at the same time

StarlighteFeb 13, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I laughed and cried at the same time

So did I when Meddler responded, and then the conversation died instantaneously, as if it never happened...

Somedays I wonder if they're really that busy, or just trying to avoid unsavory conversations.

ArczerFeb 14, 20152 votes

I have Meddler on my friend's list in-game, and haven't seen him in a long while, I assume he is actually probably busy. The recent patches have been huge in terms of champion balance - he only works on a few champions, but some of them are impacted right now by balance patches

KilaneFeb 14, 20152 votes

YaY the emperor has a dark lady who likes balls to play with.

bulldoggamerFeb 13, 20159 votes

Sir, i just want to thank you for posting an intelligent polite argument, that stated your opinions without any sort of hat attached to it. League would be a better game if more people approached ideas for change like you have. starts the slow clap

ArczerFeb 13, 20152 votes

Wow, thanks for the compliment

JasiwelFeb 13, 20158 votes

I think she could see some nerf reverts with DFG being gone. That shit was madness.

ArczerFeb 13, 20152 votes

Possibly, I don't think her stun needs to be too reverted, fixed, yes. As far as her damage goes, the nerf was so gigantic that all she really had in the first place (Big deepz) is gone.

While I don't know if it needs a 100% revert, it definitely needs a pretty hefty buff, considering the nerf was incredibly big as well. Then, go from there.

No need to absolutely gut something, which in my opinion, wasn't even broken in the first place, but I digress, when you can just change numbers slowly.

JasiwelFeb 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Possibly, I don't think her stun needs to be too reverted, fixed, yes. As far as her damage goes, the nerf was so gigantic that all she really had in the first place (Big deepz) is gone.

While I don't know if it needs a 100% revert, it definitely needs a pretty hefty buff, considering the nerf was incredibly big as well. Then, go from there.

No need to absolutely gut something, which in my opinion, wasn't even broken in the first place, but I digress, when you can just change numbers slowly.

I think an appropriate tweak would be to treat her Q's similar to Karthus' Q's in that they deal differing damage depending on how close the target is to the center of the Q. They could make the minimum damage what it is now and the maximum damage what it was a few patches ago. My big reason for not wanting her Q power to come back in its past form is to prevent total all-in situations where she rolls people entirely. We have to keep in mind that her passive makes her Q stronger when maxed and that her Ult is stronger for every orb lying around. It would reward Syndra for landing good Qs before comboing for her Ult.

qetzelFeb 14, 20151 votes

Well, on your last point, if you change numbers slowly you get "Better nerf (insert champion name here".

I think that all at once is better overall.

BradTasteFeb 14, 20154 votes

Just give syndra the veiger treatment

Nerf her dmg and make her ult a skillshot

MrSlowDieFeb 14, 20154 votes

"Syndra can 100-0 while missing all her skillshot, just press DFG+R+ignite to win"

->rito nerf Q and E -->her WR dropped hard

"it's just first day of the nerf, everybody just haven't get used to her E"

me : lol I thought she can 100-0 you while mising all her skillshot, just as you said

->she still have crappy WR after weeks

me : you said it's just for the few first day rite?

IittalaFeb 13, 20153 votes

You can`t use win rate as a way to measure a champions ability #riotsbalanceteam

It feels like another taric/poppy/eve/karma/nerfed than re-worked champ to me right now.

If a champion does super well riot nerfs them into the ground and then gets around to a re-work in about 2 years if your lucky. and its a whole different champion design then too.

Honestly still waiting for them to do this to zed.

Leti the YetiFeb 14, 20153 votes

"This might just be a mistake" said no Rioter ever

Nausicäa Feb 14, 20153 votes

Ya these changes are a huge joke and werent necessary in the first place.

I have no clue what the balance team was thinking. The fact that they now have to totally back peddle on these changes because they werent necessary in the first place is just sad.

RifticFeb 14, 20152 votes

Riot should have held off any changes at all until after DFG was removed. But in typical Riot fashion, they just got too excited at the idea of getting to swing the nerf bat again and just couldn't contain themselves.

Like the OP, I think that Syndra was exceptionally balanced. She was an excellent example of a relevant immobile mage. She could keep up with her mobile counterparts and was just generally a really solid champion that didn't take it too far.

She had a great early, a good mid game, and then fell off late. Honestly, I just don't see any issues with the pre-DFG-removal and pre-nerf Syndra aside from maybe her stun hitbox being just slightly too forgiving.

Course, what happens when you take a pretty balanced champion, remove one of her items, gut her early game damage, and gimp her stun? You get Syndra, the "least-winningest" champion in the entire game.

PentaJumpFeb 14, 20152 votes

RIOT's balance team has made A LOT of questionable decisions as of late.. It seems like half the champions touched each patch either make it into the bottom 10 or top 5. Syndra is one of the casualties, definitely.

By the way, Arczer, do you know Babycakes? She always talks about how you play incredibly well in lane, and how she totally considers you her rival ;D

RifticFeb 14, 20151 votes

Man, you can sure say that again.

Recently we've gotten: Ahri's extremely questionable changes (turns out that taking away a champion's reliance on skillshots and making them ungankable shoots their win rate up to almost 60%, who would have thought?), sweeping Fizz nerfs, the gutting of Syndra, and now pretty big Azir nerfs (supposedly putting him at a staggering 38% win rate according to some sources).

Before that we had Yasuo's gutting which left him nearly unplayable (now he's just barely playable, but still a huge liability), which Riot only recently realized they went way too far on.

And then the real balance offenders like Zed, Lee Sin, and Jarvan all remain untouched or virtually untouched.

I dunno what's going on over there, but I honestly feel like high school students could do a better job of balance right now. Anyone that knows the meaning of restraint and doesn't have a fetish for nerfing champions probably could.

ArczerFeb 14, 20152 votes

Lol, yes I do. I always give her a hard time, but she's a good sport.

KING OF MASKSFeb 14, 20152 votes

An excellent, well-reasoned thread.

So of course, I predict no red responses and no action at all on rito's part.

ArcaneFoxFeb 14, 20152 votes

This post. Thank you for this, and I really hope someone from Riot responds.

I will never ever, ever understand who thought "Lefts NERF Syndra, and THEN remove DFG!" and who supported that idea. Im sure they will fix her in time, but currently the only change on the roadmap is adjusting the stun width NEXT patch. They still haven't acknowledged the bug and think that its just that we are missing the target. No. It damages without stunning them 10% of the time. Wake up riot!

I feel like she will be useless for the next few months. Thanks for ruining a well balanced champ, Riot.

AuryielFeb 14, 20152 votes

Should have been either remove DFG or give her one of those 2 nerfs

Not all fucking 3

straight4freeFeb 14, 20151 votes

She was banned in solo Q regularly.

FastAsHeckFeb 14, 20151 votes

even as someone who hated the old syndra, i cannot disagree with the OP. shes just garbage right now. in my solomid Karthus guide, i have downgraded her from 4 to 1 (difficulty). she is just useless.

Mostly JannaFeb 14, 20151 votes

So a few ideas that struck me while reading this. Part of Syndra's problem lategame is that her only acceptably viable targets are typically the front liners (among other things).

I think an interesting way to remedy this would be to have the ult cast range calculate from the Dark Sphere's she has placed (in addition to Syndra herself). This would allow her to position her spheres to allow her to target that squishy back line by Q-E and then using R from the Sphere's new position.

Potentially more radical would be to allow her to maintain more Dark Spheres if she is going to be that lategame mage. Such as moving multiple spheres in a cluster with her W. Another thought that came to me would be that for each of her Dark Sphere's that hit an enemy through her Ultimate, she gets a flat 10% off the cooldown on her ult (the value before cooldown reduction). If you could theoretically juggle 7-10 spheres with a few changes, that'd allow her to ult twice in a short time (essentially instantly). You'd probably have to either make it so you can't ult the same target, or that some of the spheres are (or have a chance to) be destroyed on impact with a target to prevent the R-R-R-R lategame scenario if she manages to get 7-10 spheres up.

Just some thoughts. I've always liked Syndra even though I don't play her much (and I regret not doing so).

LusthFeb 14, 20151 votes

Good ridance. Wyndra is cancer.

##godbless

DelimonFeb 14, 20151 votes

you know what, let me tell you something

the only buff syndra needs right now is to her w

don't look at any other of her abilities

just buff her w's ap ratio by .2, see what happens. I bet she won't be so worthless then.

AFK PushFeb 14, 20151 votes

Its a sad day when Urgot has a better win rate than the likes of DrMundo Syndra Elise etc

Killer X 12Feb 14, 20151 votes

While syndra feels really shitty to play right now, we know they do not balance around win rates.

Neo CyrusMar 12, 20151 votes

Oh look another patch, another few weeks of Syndra being broken and useless. Her stun still doesn't work half the time even if it goes straight through the fucking centre of an opponent. That and she does absolutely nothing until about level 9.

I've given up, they've decided to leave her in the garbage dump with the other metric ton of champions which never get fixed.