Why is Flash still broken? #its2015

Artist Bogrim·Mar 12, 2015·40 votes·4,090 views

Talon jumps me. He bursts away most of my remaining health in an instant, but he needs one more melee swing to actually kill me.

I flash.

I actually see my champion arrive to safety, assuming her normal animation for a millisecond.

Then, Talon swings his attack at the spot I just was. All there is at the time of the swing is a small yellow light fading. I watch my character drop dead as if she died from a heart attack.

Why is Flash still so buggy and outdated? I get why some players would defend it---it takes skill to understand the delay. But I honestly don't understand why you can Flash when the game clearly has decided you're dead.

Would it be game breaking to fix Flash so you can't actually use the skill when you're "already dead" or at least stop things from hitting you that only could hit you on the spot you were on?

44 Comments

MrPerson10Mar 12, 201519 votes

AA animation already started before you flashed, unless he cancels it it goes through - kinda like how you can't run away from a ranged AA, it still hits you.

Artist BogrimMar 12, 20157 votes

Again, I'm sure there's a reasonable technical explanation. But if the attack has already hit me, then why does the Flash go off? It was the attack that killed me. Like you have to know that you can't escape the attack if the animation has somehow already begun. But that's not the debate. The question I'm raising is, would fixing it really be such a problem?

lojicianMar 12, 20154 votes

Because melee champions really need to be nerfed more right now. If they made flash break incoming particles again I could see it.

Artist BogrimMar 12, 20153 votes

Nobody is suggesting that melee should be nerfed. It would be just as fine if the flash didn't happen and you just died. Assuming melee is balanced around killing people who flash before their last auto attack but not before the invisible start of the animation.

1st HanarSpectreMar 12, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Artist Bogrim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5hEpRyrt,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-12T21:28:08.269+0000)

Nobody is suggesting that melee should be nerfed. It would be just as fine if the flash didn't happen and you just died. Assuming melee is balanced around killing people who flash before their last auto attack but not before the invisible start of the animation.

This has absolutely nothing to do with melee. Flash does not disjoint any projectile anymore. meaning any spells or attack initiated before flash has been used (ranged OR melee) will continue and hit you at your old location. This is not a bug, it is the intended behavior for flash and similar spells.

RikariMar 13, 20152 votes

AAs are like single target spells,you can't flash single target spells :/ Ranged or Melee,getting out of range after it's begun won't save you.

QuortMar 13, 20154 votes

The way you say this sounds pretty ominous... :O

JefftiffyMar 13, 20158 votes

{quoted}

AA animation already started before you flashed, unless he cancels it it goes through - kinda like how you can't run away from a ranged AA, it still hits you.

Thing is Riot needs disjoints in this game. It is the key to giving actual counter play to carries. Just because the animation started doesn't mean they should be allowed to finish it. If you add in disjoints, it allows you to use flash, blinks, teleports, recalls, invis's etc to all counter play any AA based champ.

Simply oh you got hit from 1.5k units because you used your escape while they were half way through the cancel portion of the animation doesn't cut it. There needs to be a window where you can disjoint AAs, albeit brief but a window for skill and counter play.

It's not fair to flash thinking you can survive just to have a melee champ kill you from around 600 units away. Or for the matter to think you flashed out of an ADC's range to just have them finish the 1% started animation and kill you.

Also to the above notes on Darius pull and other skills like it. It really needs to be fixed. The animation needs to be clear and if it is going to be a long animation at least make it clear that you can not run. Not just yank you across the lane after you blew 1 or more escapes to get away. I understand what happens, but its stupid to watch your character get yanked like a blitz pull across the lane while blitz you can break it with blinks. Darius simply lets you blink out of the pull animation and pulls you back in when you land.

Major SparklesMar 14, 20151 votes

Another rioter explained that the problem is the game currently decides whether an attack will hit or miss before the attack lands. That's why if you blind someone while they're attacking you, the attack will still hit you. They're working on changing it but they said it's complicated.

TalamareMar 12, 20156 votes

Ping delay issue

GlaedonxMar 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ping delay issue

Exactly.. When you're playing with people across the country it takes probably a tenth or two of a second for their computer to realize you pressed F or D.. This isn't noticeable always but in split second scenarios it does. This isn't really fixable it can just be lessened by Riot improving ping times. Even playing on LANs will have a delay, it's probably sub 1ms so it's really rare for something like this to happen there, but it could.

RaptameiMar 12, 20153 votes

Let's not make the game even easier. If you flash during an attack that's going to kill you, it's your fault the flash is on cooldown.

And if Riot prevented you from using it then you'd complain about being unable to flash into Janna's ult or something and survive.

Jungle Lux GodMar 12, 20153 votes

That's not the only thing that's broken about flash.

Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-fV5Huavg4

(skip to the lux play and the cass play)

Only Play DariusMar 13, 20151 votes

Holy shit, that Viktor play at the beginning.

Poor Sivir LMAO, I still don't know exactly what happened.

Urdnot EntarMar 13, 20153 votes

Fun fact, I posted about this over a year ago: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4225452 Instead of doing anything about it or even responding, Riot closed the thread. This is what Riot's design and interaction with the community looks like.

ZtokaMar 12, 20152 votes

Exactly. If you are dead, your flash cool down shouldn't be used. Either let me escape and burn my cool down or kill me and let it be there because it wasn't used. This happened to me last night having a 60ish ping... So I doubt it is always ping related.

The GrunzarvianMar 12, 20152 votes

How about when you attempt to blink away from a Darius pull as Ez, get out, only to get pulled back in and dunked? Like 100% of the time. It's not just flash, it's all blinks in general.

XonraMar 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Grunzarvian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5hEpRyrt,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-12T21:49:33.849+0000)

How about when you attempt to blink away from a Darius pull as Ez, get out, only to get pulled back in and dunked? Like 100% of the time. It's not just flash, it's all blinks in general.

This one hurts my head sometimes. I have seen the Darius pull animation happen and be like "haha got away sucked!" as I flash over a wall, only to suddenly be right back next to him as his arm animation has extended about 3 times the normal length and an axe from across a wall pulls you back.

I've seen a blitz hook go out, someone take a thresh lantern, only to be blitz pulled BACK all the way to blitz as if they never left.

Ariel the CruelMar 12, 20151 votes

This is actually cause by a gap in a skill's target acquisition step and effect activation step. The same thing can happen with Voli's and Singed's pulls. The ability identifies affected targets at the beginning of the animation, and pulls them at the end of it.

The reason you almost never see this happen with Voli and Singed is because their animations are incredibly short. While Darius' pull has a very long animation, resulting in a larger gap between to two parts.

This is also the cause various "recall follow" scenarios you can probably find on Youtube. Person A targets recalling enemy B with an ability -> Ability identifies Enemy B as a target -> Enemy Recall finishes sending them back to Nexus -> Person A Sprints to enemy nexus at light speed to finish casting.

If you want better disconnect, try spell shielding Master Yi's alpha strike. It acquires targets and procs it's effect before the animation even starts, then applies damage at the end (which does not proc spell shield).

EDIT: As for Blitz/Thresh, there is another possible answer. Thresh Lantern is considered an interruptible dash. So if you grab the lantern then get hit by the Grab, you'll still get pulled. This applies to any hard CC applied to a person getting Lanterned away. Blitz Grab also applies a Stun, preventing the reverse scenario.

ÔneWindyBoiMar 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Grunzarvian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5hEpRyrt,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-12T21:49:33.849+0000)

How about when you attempt to blink away from a Darius pull as Ez, get out, only to get pulled back in and dunked? Like 100% of the time. It's not just flash, it's all blinks in general.

That has to do with how Darius pull is coded. The instant he presses E the game checks to see if anyone is in range. Once the animation completes anyone that was in range when he pressed E gets pulled back to him, no matter where they ended up

D1v1n1tyMar 12, 20152 votes

came here because you guys sound dumb....talons q has bleed damage, and thats probably what killed you

femméMar 13, 20152 votes

let me explain it every champion is ranged the only thing that makes caitlyn's aa from rengar's aa is that cait has a larger aa range. IF you were fighting talon while still in his aa range and he clicks to aa you then as long as he does nothing else in the next, however many second it take for his aa then he's going to hit you even if you flash or teleport away.

OJ191Mar 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

let me explain it every champion is ranged the only thing that makes caitlyn's aa from rengar's aa is that cait has a larger aa range. IF you were fighting talon while still in his aa range and he clicks to aa you then as long as he does nothing else in the next, however many second it take for his aa then he's going to hit you even if you flash or teleport away.

we know how it works you derp we're saying it shouldn't work like that

OhOkYeaMar 12, 20151 votes

using flash at all on 2015

SerevasMar 12, 20151 votes

It's because blinks are a nightmaring thing to deal with in coding. Abilities, flash, all of that is a nightmare. It's why LeBlanc can still be dashing while getting stunned and will finish her dash, likewise with Katarina on her Shunpo. It's just a really screwy ability that's naturally loaded with buggy behavior, unfortunately it's just something you've gotta deal with.

Artist BogrimMar 12, 20151 votes

Actually it's not a nightmare. Warcraft 3 handled it just fine and that's a 12-years-old game now I believe. The way WC3 handled it was that all the game's actions were taken in order (like a queue). This is also why the game had such an easy replay feature because a replay was just a list of every order that had been given in the game, so you weren't actually watching a recording but rather the game reenacted the match itself.

For example, let's say that you cast a flash ability and your opponent casts a root at the same time. The way WC3 did it was that both of these commands were sent to the server and then queued in the received order, then the server would tell your game what to do. So if your opponent had a lower ping and got the command through first, you would get a message that you can't do that while rooted. If you had the lower ping, your opponent would get the out of range error. Since information is streamed to the server, it's actually impossible for it at the time same.

I don't know how League is coded, but I believe it's very similar. And I honestly don't believe it's technically impossible or even hard to fix. It's just a decision they have to make, and it's huge because Flash has become such a core mechanic in League and they might just consider it an integral part of the game now.

PassionlipMar 12, 20151 votes

Because LoL hasn't a disjoint mechanic, when targeted abilities 'target' you they will follow you through hell and over - Like when Gangplank Parry you during the ending of a recall and you get hit by a bullet at your fountain 8D

windwolf777Mar 13, 20151 votes

MasterYi Q says hi?

PassionlipMar 13, 20151 votes

That's a bit different, during the Q he becomes untargetable- I talk something like... Annie Use is Q when Ezreal Use Arcane Shift to the right- the Q lose the target and miss

windwolf777Mar 13, 20151 votes

Ah, my mistake.

flibitydooMar 13, 20151 votes

allowing flash to disjoint projectiles would make tower diving much more easier.

basically you could go ham on them under tower and flash before the tower shot kills you.

JefftiffyMar 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

allowing flash to disjoint projectiles would make tower diving much more easier.

basically you could go ham on them under tower and flash before the tower shot kills you.

I'm talking about dropping it during the wind up phase. It would only disjoint projectiles that haven't been launched. So basically if the shot hasn't been fired yet it will be disjointed. It will not affect towers at all as they lock on and follow you after they have been launched.

TwoDMar 13, 20151 votes

get rekt by talon

Yulen XoshxiusMar 13, 20151 votes

Shouldn't this go into bugs? Or are you looking to find the balancing for it?

SammystormMar 13, 20151 votes

same reason a ranged champion can kill you with a auto after you flash. it takes time for the animation to finish but the attack isn't canceled as long as you were in range when the attack started.

OJ191Mar 13, 20151 votes

Last time I asked this question I was downvoted and told to shut up because "muh overnerfed melee" now bear in mind this was waaaay back before any of this top lane mage shit started happening or any of that.

youngjake93Mar 13, 20151 votes

Kiting would be broken if every time a champion got out of range your attack didn't go off. It's mostly applicable to walking away from a melee attacker, but they keep it consistent throughout the whole game. You can't run away from turret shots. Even if you teleport they will still follow you. Pantheon's spear will chase you down even if you take a lantern ride 2000 range away. Once an attack starts, it goes all the way through.

Dragon used to not work this way and that's why you could just take half a step back whenever its attack animation started to go through and step back toward dragon after you cancelled its attack. You could make dragon do zero damage to you just by timing your back steps and that's what you would be able to do to champions if attacks were not coded the way they are.

qaECfPHVZ8Mar 14, 20151 votes

Exactly. The same exact thing happens every single time a melee hero autoattacks someone running away from them. It is literally the exact process, yet it's natural.

Hyrum GraffMar 13, 20151 votes

Agreed. It's most apparent for me when blitz knocks me up after I flash. It's the most frustrating thing. Either I should get knocked up, and be unable to flash, or flash, and avoid the knockup.

qetzelMar 13, 20151 votes

What about flashing towards a support who could shield or heal you? I would hate to be killed because my flash wouldn't work.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 13, 20151 votes

If summoner 4 were to be removed one day due to multiple QQ flash thread people:

RIPDustyMar 13, 20151 votes

What if there was a new summoner that instantly reduced cd's to 0? OP on champs ults...well then it will reduce ult timer by half (half of full value not half at the time) and suddenly that rumble's ultimate that was used 30s ago(dunno how long his ult timer is) is suddenly back up but he did still have to wait that time and now he has a big cooldown on his summ.

Or don't reduce cool down on ultimate atall.

Or do the first one but after using your ultimate directly after the summ, it increases your ult timer by...20s?

Just an idea for another summoner that could be implemented and could be another game changing summ like flash. Comment ideas