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Mordekaiser 5.4 changes

RiotRiotChun·2/13/2015, 5:28:48 AM·85 votes·132,489 views

Hi guys, when we removed DFG in 5.2,we have said we will do some changes towards Mordekaiser Mordekaiser . And now let's talk about it with details.

Currently on live, Mordekaiser is mainly being played as a burst mage and functions debatably 'well' in that way. But since DFG is gone, Mordekaiser has run into trouble in the late game because one of his essential play-patterns (blow someone up for a ghost) no longer functions well there.

Right now, we're looking at Mordekaiser and we think he definitely needs some help there. That said, the "burst mage" play-pattern doesn't serve well enough both in this champion's fantasy and the counterplay (or lack of) around it. So we're aiming to make this big-full-metal guy a fighter/brawler which better fits his fantasy and is more aligned with his shield passive mechanics. We get there are people who liked the whole "Mordekaiser explodes people" play style, but we just can't keep it balanced and healthy in the current state of the game. Our changes aren't to shift his damage significantly, but we want him to be thinking about that shield while he's in the middle of the fight.

High level, our first change is that now Mordekaiser's shield gain is base on his maximum health instead of damage he deals. By doing this, Mordekaiser will be able to survive long enough to shine on the battle ground with his sustained damage/ghost if he chooses to be tanky. And for enemies, Mordekaiser is no longer a moving short range cannon, but slow metal tank who can be kited. Also Morde's shield doesn't decay while in combat (after 5 seconds it begins decaying).

Secondly, Mordekaiser's burst damage will goes down a bit but, over time, his damage output will be the same or slightly increased. So he will not burst you down but still remain threatening over time.

Third, Mordekaiser's shield now works the same as Nunu's bloodboil (cast on an ally, Mordekaiser also gets the shield) and if they run toward each other, they'll gain a mini speed boost. Think magnets.

Last, Mordekaiser's ghost will be more intuitive and clear in target selection. So Mordekaiser and his ghost no longer grant whacky stats from each other, but straightforward and intuitive stats: Mordekaiser now will gain health/ap from his ghost's bonus health and ability power, while Mordekaiser's stats will help the ghost scale up (but the type of ghost he grabs (ie: Mage / Marksmen / Tank) will have an impact on their performance).

So TL:DR we want to make Mordekaiser more of a brawly-scrappy champion because his current successful play pattern of "explode someone, get a Ghost, roll over the game" is near impossible to tune without hurting some players. This gives us more space to help Mordekaiser succeed while not confusing others as to why a big suit of armor is super squishy and bursty.

653 Comments

Starlighte2/13/2015, 5:41:23 AM203 votes

Sounds like he isn't really getting changed for the better, as Morde's biggest weakness (which helps to offset his burst) is his kite-ability. If he remains just as kite-able as he is today, but with less damage and no way to really stick/get to his opponent, this rework is going to be pretty awful for him.

Morde doesn't need much help, but the only reason he was reasonably healthy as a burst mage was his limited range, lack of CC, and lack of mobility. So, taking away his burst, leaves him essentially useless. No range, no CC, and no mobility, on a champion that does sub-par damage. Seems to fit his theme reasonably well, but from a gameplay perspective it seems to fall flat fairly quickly in The League of Mobility Creep.

CCmi8bSMkW2/13/2015, 10:30:44 AM130 votes

First of thanks for taking the time to post here. However I have a lot of concerns about what you say.

since DFG is gone, Mordekaiser has run into trouble

Wrong. Neither he's winrate (good) or pickrate (very low) were majorly impacted by DFG:s removal

his essential play-patterns (blow someone up for a ghost) no longer functions well there.

It works to same success as it has before. (good or bad)

"Mordekaiser explodes people" play style, but we just can't keep it balanced and healthy in the current state of the game.

Literally the champions people complain in places like reddit is like Zed, Nidalee, and Riven. Why is this healthy gameplay for Zed or Riven then, why does this not apply to them?

we want to make Mordekaiser more of a brawly-scrappy champion

Eh ok. I'm not sure why. Nobody particularly asked for that. That's ok I guess. But how in the earth will that be useful without cc?

why a big suit of armor is super squishy and bursty.

Literally go into game right now and put him beside Sion, Lux, and Graves. Do it.

Cronovey2/13/2015, 6:04:16 AM58 votes

I think the problem with this is that he's going to occupy the same space as a few other champions who will pretty much always be superior.

What other AP bruiser type champions are there? You've got Rumble and Zac, the occasional Sejuani or Cho'gath maybe. Mundo for the sake of this argument since he does mostly magic damage I suppose?

  • Rumble has short range and CC, as well as a large zoning tool with his ultimate and run speed. Natural tankiness with Scrap Shield.
  • Zac has similar range but sustain in lane for his health costing abilities, and a metric buttload of AoE CC along with his kit. Percent health damage, natural tankiness through his sustain.
  • Sejuani has AoE CC along with a gap closer at short range. Percent health damage. Natural tankiness through passive.
  • Cho'gath has sustain, 2 forms of CC, and a massive true damage nuke. All fairly short range. Natural tankiness through increased health.
  • Dr. Mundo has sustain, short ranged CC, CC reduction, and a massive run speed steroid. Natural tankiness through health sustain.
  • Mordekaiser has short range, health costs on abilities but no sustain for them, natural tankiness through shields and W armor/MR buff.
  • [Edit: How could I forget!] Maokai has short ranges, natural sustain through his passive and ultimate for tankiness, and three forms of CC.

Now, there are a few things you'll notice.

  • All of the above have relatively short range.
  • All of the above are naturally tanky through their kit, whether it's armor/MR/health sustain.

However, the one thing you'll notice if you look at the list closely: Mordekaiser is the only one who has zero CC in his kit right now.

This means that, no matter how you try to change him, there's almost never going to be a situation where he's a better pick than a champion like Rumble, Cho'gath, or any of the others up there. They all have AoE for clear, are naturally tanky, but all of them have CC built into their kits while Mordekaiser does not. These changes won't make Mordekaiser a viable pick; what he needs is a proper rework to bring him up to speed in the League of Mobility where every champion can jump around and kite him all day while he's forced to build a Rylai's Crystal Scepter to even compete.

Sailor Mint2/13/2015, 5:33:53 AM49 votes

Any chance that we could see some tweaks to the pet AI?

i.e.: Pets being able to attack-move. Pets automatically attacking your current basic attack/single target skill target if they don't currently have a target.

Mordekaiser, Annie and Yorick could definitely use smarter pets.

Flay and Pray2/13/2015, 5:47:05 AM39 votes

There are a couple of problems I see with this. Currently Mordekaisers kit is based around poking people with E to gain the shield enough to W/Q in and maybe pick up a kill with his ult. Changing his damage output and passive scaling could ruin this kit, and I'll explain why:

This is a long read, so feel free to skip down to the TLDR at the bottom.

Problem 1: With these changes, if you don't completely change his E he will be completely ineffective and here is why. Tanks soak damage because they FORCE the enemy to attack them. If you keep Mordekaisers kit the same but make him tankier he will be useless because the enemy has no reason to focus him in the first place. Sure he can soak a ton of damage, but he would be even easier to kite than Sion especially if you had BORK. He would now basically run around in a fight doing nothing but soaking AOE damage that happens to hit him. The only reason to focus him would be to get his W out of the way, which might need to be a significant speed boost to matter that much.

Problem 2: Mordekaiser as a burst Mage had his ghost for a reason. It allowed him to take towers faster of course but that wasn't its real importance. Mordekaiser is easily killed if caught alone if they have any CC so his ghost gave the enemy team someone else to deal with. Now, not only will it be near impossible for him to get a ghost on his own, but it won't serve a purpose other than tanking, which, much like mordekaiser will have no reason to focus it since it can only auto attack.

Problem 3: This rework, didn't really solve any of the problems that he had. His current problems, as you stated above were mostly his "cancerous" spamming of E in lane. Removing the damage from it fixes this of course, but COMPLETELY nullifies the ability.

Problem 4: If you make his passive based around maximum health rather than damage, he would have no reason to build much damage in the first place, and would make more sense if any of his abilities also scaled with max hp. Without consistent damage, mordekaiser has no use anymore, as he can't make people focus him.

In my honest opinion, mordekaiser will never be completely fixed unless he receives a Sion level rework, which has a TON of potential, although I not sure if you plan on doing something like this oh the future for him or not.

TLDR: Mordekaisers current abilities don't suffice for being a tank and he won't be able to do his job because the enemy will have no reason to focus him. Mordekaiser will of course have consistent damage, but won't be able to get that damage off. Due to Mordekaisers lack of any CC or mobility (other than the proposed W change) he was based around bursting someone once he was able to get in range. With these changes he will do small ammounts of damage every once in a while but it won't be consistent as he can't stick to people, which all other bruisers/tanks can. There would be no reason to play him over champions like Cho'Gath and Rumble who would do what he does more consistently and with CC.

Fix to this problem: Give the enemy a REASON to get him out of the fight. Make his shield give his abilities bonus effects if over 50%. Much like Nautilus this will give enemies a reason to focus the easily kite able tank. Over 50% shield he could even gain some CC on his abilties, but give him counterplay in lane and of course, usefulness as a tank.

KEEP IN MIND: I completely realize no final changes were shown here and we don't even have numbers yet, however, these are my opinions based around what was said in the post above alone.p

Sorry for the long read, but I would appreciate any feedback Chun.

Potato Doc2/13/2015, 6:32:35 AM34 votes

I had high hopes for these changes, and I will be patient until solid numbers are out and solid facts to actually give my opinion. However from the information given I feel like you are hurting mordekaiser instead of giving him the buff he needs from the loss of DFG.

Ive been playing morde since season 1 and have him down to the point where I dont lose lane just about ever.Here is my opinion of the problem with this "compensation"

Im not even going to get started on the whole movement speed buff for him, its laughable to be honest because its almost useless as an escape or chase mechanic

as for morde shouldnt be allowed to burst people down? Focus on RIven before you target Mordekaiser for these >.>

I really hope you guys talk this out with people who actually played mordekaiser for a while, instead of just jumping to conclusions on how he might work better. Please

chumbler2/13/2015, 5:52:38 AM30 votes

Answer this, Riot. What possible reason would I have to ever pick your Morde over a champion with 2-3 times the kit?

PS "Morde can't be allowed to burst people" is incredibly dumb because A) He has tiny range, B) his burst isn't even high and has a higher isolation requirement than Kha'Zix does, C) his approach is literally "Walk up to a guy", and D) if he builds for burst he's made of glass and can be burst down himself before he even gets his shield.

DynamiteGazelle2/13/2015, 4:17:06 PM27 votes

"Hey, we heard that removing DFG hurt Mord's damage, so to compensate we're nerfing his damage" -Rito Games, 2015

Kowe The Ewok2/13/2015, 6:08:01 AM26 votes

{quoted}

High level, our first change is that now Mordekaiser's shield gain is base on his maximum health instead of damage he deals. By doing this, Mordekaiser will be able to survive long enough to shine on the battle ground with his sustained damage/ghost if he chooses to be tanky. And for enemies, Mordekaiser is no longer a moving short range cannon, but slow metal tank who can be kited. Also Morde's shield doesn't decay while in combat (after 5 seconds it begins decaying).

Fyi. Mordekaiser already can get kited pretty easily...

Talamare2/13/2015, 6:01:18 AM25 votes

Woah that magnets idea is really awesome but how about this

What if we let W be cast on ... ENEMIES

Doing so will grant Mordekaiser the defensive shield as well, in addition to the magnetism effect Casting it on an enemy reduces their armor/mr by 1/2 of what it increases Mordekaisers armor/mr The effect on an enemy is NOT aoe, but the one on Mordekaiser still is

An enemy CAN take damage from both the one on them AND on Mordekaiser (thus increasing his steady damage and allowing you to nerf his nuke power)

Resiakedrøm2/13/2015, 8:10:03 AM23 votes

I don't understand why you would shift Mordekaiser into a tank.

Hes a champion with 0 mobility or CC and an ultimate that's made to kill a champion. How will he be able to get his ultimate off as a sustain damage tank? Mordekaisers ulti and unapproachable play style make him fun but as a tank he wont be able to get his ultimate off by himself.

So he now requires his team to help him kill his target but he has no CC to offer to actually take the guy down. I really don't see how he can function in the state of a tank as it appears to me hes just gonna end up a mundo/shyvana with no mobility or CC that prays his team take down his target or end up as tank that offers nothing to his team.

I feel you either have to make him a full out tank with actual CC or some form of usefulness or keep him as a burst mage that could maybe have some more power shoved into his kit.

OH NO ITS LU BU2/13/2015, 5:45:41 AM23 votes

How will these changes help Morde in a 1v1? How will they affect his skirmishing, counter ganking, etc? I understand current meta is not usually taken into consideration when changing kits, but how would you compare his kit to other people in the same lane?

mi ramfan2/13/2015, 5:59:13 AM23 votes

I get the feeling that Mordekaiser is going to be like Shyvana after these changes in that he'll have great damage if he can actually get to people, great bulk when people actually fight him, but...he'll have no CC and no mobility, so he'll never actually be able to use said damage and just get killed from 600 range away every fight.

I mean, Shyvana has a big movement speed buff on W and her ult dash, and she STILL gets kited all over the place. Without his burst, the same thing will probably happen to Morde.

Dulzara2/13/2015, 5:09:21 PM17 votes

First time posting on the boards since the change from GD. It's not a bad redesign, I just don't like how they work as much, so I don't reply much. However, as a Mord player, I feel this is a big enough thing to come here to talk about.

If you really want to change Mordekaiser's play style, I entirely understand that. I agree, a big suit of armor (that is actually one of the smallest models in game still, why?) shouldn't be playing as a squishy one shot mage. I feel Mord, as he was an old champion, suffered from that "where do we go" with his kit design like Sion did. Not as drastically, but obviously the two just didn't mesh well as Riot was a fledgling company. So, fine. We want to change Mordekaiser to a big tanky champion. That's entirely great, except for the following problem:

If a tank has no damage, no CC, and no utility, what is the point of him?

Scenario. Mordekaiser has 9000 health, 600 MR and Armor, and an regenerating shield making him amazingly unkillable late game. We're going to talk about the team fight here: what do you do to this foe? No one can hurt him. But, he doesn't have damage. You don't want him to build full AP, so his damage already will be small. His ult's burst will be mitigated, as he's not building enough AP for it to matter, and DFG doesn't exist now to let him burst. Fine, we don't want him to burst, so he's not a threat in the team fight for damage. However, if you're a tank, you need a reason to be targeted more than the other targets on your team. If you don't have damage, surely you have some reason that the enemy team needs to worry about you.

Nope, we don't have any CC. So, he's not a threat to stopping the enemy carry so he can be attacked by your team that does do the damage. Fine; surely he has some form of utility then to help his team out? He has a shield that he can throw on a target that will give some base stats and a very weak aura of damage. And, it looks like with the new changes, a slight speed boost. Great, we're on the right track here, but unless that speed is rather huge, it's still almost pointless to the team. You put it on the ADC, and he's slightly less one shotable by the enemy Zed. (Which why are we stopping Mord from one shotting while that's a thing?) You put it on anyone, and they can run away- for a few seconds. But, if it's only a tiny speed increase, that's again absolutely pointless.

So, we have no CC, no utility, and no damage, but we're an unstoppable unkillable machine. What happens? Your entire team dies, and you're left alive. Even if the ADC exists alone, with the power of BotRK and Last Whisper, no amount of tankiness will matter, and you will NOT be able to kill it because you no longer have damage as you didn't want Mordekaiser to build AP.

Please, Riot. PLEASE pay attention to this.

I know a lot of the forums like to complain about reworks, and a lot of the times, they're unfounded and pointless. But, I still want to believe that you care at least a little about what we think. You have to be careful about how you're approaching this. If you want to change Mord's identity, you need to give him something new to compensate with the removal of damage by design. An unkillable wall that doesn't block something is pointless. An tanky machine without anything to make him actually get targeted is pointless.

Give him a taunt. Give him a stun. Give him a slow. Give him something that will make him worth targeting so that identity of a "giant" suit of armor actually matters. If he's not going to deal damage, then he needs something- or you need to give him more base damage and keep him slightly killable. You need to do more than the little bit you're talking here, otherwise we're going to have to wait the massive long period of time it takes to redesign a champion. (And he'll be WAY at the back of the line, as Taric, Urgot, many others need it first.)

I'm not saying don't change Mord, or let me one shot people. But please, as one of many loyal customers, at least look a bit closer at these designs. I know you're scared of making Mord the unkillable machine he was that could kill your ADC and then 1v5 your team. But as this rework looks so far, this isn't going to help the removal of an item, but make him even less of a character to play.

Thanks.

Edit: I think I came up with a fun sort of mechanic. I obviously can't give numbers that would be balanced, but it would make Mord worth tanking and not just giving him some sort of CC.

If you want him to be kited as a weakness, I can understand that, and that's why you wouldn't give him CC. So, why not tweak his passive and W a bit to interact with something of the following. Mordekaiser is based around being a massive metal tank and 'suffering and draining.' That's what he's been. But, other than his ult, there is no 'drain.'

Why not make it that at like 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% shield, Mordekaiser has an aura that becomes stronger. Make it that Mordekaiser drains the stats of nearby champions by being in proximity to them? If he's at 25% shield, he drains .5 AD, .5AP, .5 armor, or such every 2-4 seconds. At 100%, he drains more. I mean, please, I don't know what would make the numbers balanced, but you could balance that somehow, I'm sure. It gives a reason to poke down his shield and then switch back to targets like the ADC, but if you just leave him to his devices, he eventually becomes too strong to handle in the team fight. Or you just become too weak, he doesn't need to take the stats, but it gives him a reason to actually be targeted that doesn't involve a stun, slow or anything, and keeps him "kitable" as you seem to want. It also gives a fresh new mechanic to the field?

Feel free to disagree, after all, but I think it's a cool proposition once its properly balanced, and keeps on the theme of giant slow metal man that drains you.

chumbler2/13/2015, 6:39:28 AM16 votes

Chun, I'll at least give you this much. You're giving Morde players more time to say goodbye to their champion than Cassiopeia players got. But you're still gunning hard for that "Worst designer with zero understanding of the game" title that stashu currently holds.

Arcane Azmadi2/13/2015, 10:35:26 AM16 votes

How will these changes help Morde's viability? Not in the slightest. The game has any number of big, lumbering, tanky, damage-dealing bruisers who can be kited -Garen, Darius, Cho'Gath, Nasus etc- and none of them see play for the exact same reason that Morde doesn't: because mobility creep means that anyone who doesn't have some kind of jump or dash is useless unless they put out absolutely OUTRAGEOUS DPS (like Ryze, Cassiopeia and AD hyper carries). You can fiddle the numbers on Morde all you like, but all you're doing is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

BeatzBoyFTW2/13/2015, 5:42:57 AM15 votes

Third, Mordekaiser's shield now works the same as Nunu's bloodboil (cast on an ally, Mordekaiser also gets the shield) and if they run toward each other, they'll gain a mini speed boost. Think magnets.

After 20 years Rito, thank you...... item 3070 Mordekaiser item 3070

Gaminon2/13/2015, 8:10:06 PM15 votes

Morde as a burst mage is weird, but when you look at his kit, how else do you play him? No mobility, no CC, melee, and short range spells. Since he can't stick to a target, he can't deal sustained damage. Hence, burst mage Mordekaiser.

So if you want to make him a brawly, sustain damage fighter, you're going to have to give him more utility than one tiny, highly conditional speed boost. Riot just released Gnar, Kalista, and Rek'Sai, but they expect Morde to plod along like a CC-less rock and still compete??

I'm trying to imagine what I would build on a non-burst Morde. You'll need spell vamp so you don't kill yourself in lane. You'll need Rylai's so that you have at least a little CC. Boots are a given. So now that you've spent half your build just plugging the holes in your kit, what would you like to do with your remaining three items? Build yourself as a weak tank without any hard CC? Build yourself as a squishy, short range, low damage mage? Build a little of both and be bad at everything?

No thank you. I'd rather see the following:

  • Get rid of health costs in abilities. If you have to lower the damage on his abilities or the rate at which his shield grows to compensate, do it. Being forced into buying spell vamp is not good for a tanky character, though. Alternately, build some health restoration into his kit. A shield that degrades is not the same.

  • Give him respectable mobility/CC. Make his W an actual MS boost. Give his Q a short stun. Make his ult steal MS. Or his E. Maybe give him bonus movespeed based on his shield strength. Regardless of what you land on, if you plan to eliminate his burst, he HAS to gain movement utility to compensate.

Burungeru2/13/2015, 5:47:50 AM14 votes

I understand why you can't let him have his bursting down enemies for a ghost gameplay, but I'm worried about the direction this is taking considering he now he's going to seem even more forced into buying Rylai's Scepter and Liandry's Torment than he was before because the tanky AP items with HP / bulk have mana which is a wasted cost on him or that AP items in general just lack health.

Is he going to feel much different than if you were to play Rumble, or give reasons to pick him over Rumble, because that seems like the intended direction for him based on these comments. It seems like he'll ended up being built that way if you remove burst and serve as the same type of bulky, sustained damage dealing mage that lacks mana and gets forced into the same build each game.

J Eevo2/13/2015, 1:03:10 PM14 votes

As it stands Morde is a tanky AP caster that can't chase or run away but his high damages makes you wary of engaging in a fight with him. My question is, how exactly do you want him to fill in the tank role if you take away his damage for increased survivability without any CC or anything of the sort? Morde CANNOT peel, and he CANNOT chase squishies, if you nerf his damage then I see no reason why anyone would consider focusing their attention on him when they can just EFFORTLESSLY PASS BY HIM UNHINDERED while he stacks up his shield. In his current form he has NO WAY to tank, if you remove the one thing that makes him a threat to the other team then I fail to see how he'll be of any use to a team.

Jambat2/13/2015, 9:51:36 AM13 votes

{quoted}

So TL:DR we want to make Mordekaiser more of a brawly-scrappy champion because his current successful play pattern of "explode someone, get a Ghost, roll over the game" is near impossible to tune without hurting some players. This gives us more space to help Mordekaiser succeed while not confusing others as to why a big suit of armor is super squishy and bursty.

Oh God, that's exactly what you said with Gragas.

BastionKross2/13/2015, 3:19:18 PM13 votes

First of all, being kited sucks. It's a weakness that's only gotten more debilitating as League continues it's march toward mobility. Back when Ashe was the champ that was picked to kite like mad, being kitable was a perfectly fine downside. Nowadays, you have champs with all kinds of mobility and CC to make sure you never get close to them. If "ability to be kited" is a weakness you plan to use with a champion, that champion is going to need lots of help before it can be considered a pick. Do not treat the "ability to be kited" weakness lightly, it destroys champs.

Secondly, if you don't plan on giving Morde a gapcloser (and no that little MS boost with the shield is not a gapcloser), at least give him something to stick to a target once he's managed to get to one. CC like a root or a stun would be okay, but I believe the best solution is a silence. Morde is not a mobile assassin, so it's not out of the realm of possibility; and it would give him the ability to stick to targets without having them dash/blink/teleport away from him. Put the silence on his Q so he can nail more than one champion with it, but only if you're grouped up and only if you let Morde close enough to throw out an auto attack. That's seems like pretty good counterplay to me.

Blackmage92/13/2015, 7:37:44 AM12 votes

Mordekaiser is no longer a moving short range cannon, but slow metal tank who can be kited

But he can already be kited or stop with any CC since he lacks his own besides building Rylai's which doesn't help him much

Xengre2/13/2015, 6:45:31 AM12 votes

This is probably the worst redesign I have ever seen for any champion in League.

Mordekaiser is already a slow bruiser/fighter champ. He is tanky based on spellvamp and somewhat off of his shield. His shield is in a pretty bad spot due to the weak regeneration and high HP costs of skills, particularly in lane. He is already very slow and has issues getting to oponents in League of Hyper Mobility. What makes you think swapping from a burst style where once he finally gets in range he does something useful to a heavy bruiser sustained damage weaker burst champ who can't even keep up is going to be successful when he now has to repeatedly keep up with his targets, something already extremely difficult for the catch them once to maybe kill them style he has now? You would have to seriously aid his mobility in some way for this to ever work. Now we have to start building HP/tankier to make him work and utilize his shield properly so he isn't even dealing dmg? Remember that his ghost depends on people dying, kinda fast too... and early enough to be productive? If he isn't doing the dmg its very likely he will have serious issues securing his ghost, particularly on targets desired that are ADC who tend to be far more mobile and better at kiting and protected by teammates then anything else...

Heck, DFG is being removed and he wasn't considered a problem before. In fact, he was on the extreme weak end due to his overly weak mobility. Now you want to gut him further? The play style currently does not support a weaker Morde without DFG but it supported one with DFG? Contradicting much? Do everyone a favor and don't half ass it like some other champs have gotten.

shane o noke2/13/2015, 6:06:52 AM11 votes

I assume since you're nerfing his burst damage you will decrease his health costs to compensate?

Poptart Evelynn2/13/2015, 5:43:11 AM10 votes

The most fun part of Morde's kit is his ability to regain his shield through fighting. Are you saying that his shield is not something that can be regained anymore but something that just fills up and decays? That would be very boring.

Amidon2/13/2015, 1:27:25 PM10 votes

I feel bad for Morde players. This isn't going to make him a competitively viable champion, but it does sound like it's going to make him pretty much useless in solo queue. His main strength in solo queue was counter assassins in the mid lane, and now it sounds like he's being taken out of the mid lane and relegated to another tanky top laner.

stuartk112/13/2015, 2:12:38 PM10 votes

Overall, this feels like a nerf to a champion that was already not stellar.

Firstly, let's discuss the strengths that Mordekaiser has. The largest is probably waveclear. He has a good amount of waveclear, and can use this to push minions into his opponent's turret. Against champions such as assassins, who were not really able to kill the minions as fast as they were pushed into their turret, this gave Mordekaiser an edge against them in lane. Most assassins do have a weaker laning phase than their opponents, but still, Mordekaiser had an advantage here. Next, is his burst. Mordekaiser, with a full combo, generally could 80-0 his laning opponent. This required good positioning, ult, ignite and Deathfire Grasp (RIP), but he could do a descent amount of damage.

Next, let's discuss the problems with Mordekaiser, and why I think these changes do not seem to be helpful. Let's start with a large disadvantage. Range. Mordekaiser has extremely poor range, and has to be close the opponent to effectively clear waves of minions or trade. There are plenty of other champions in the game who can wave clear from a much greater range, such as Ziggs, Oriana and Azir. Having a low range is quite a disadvantage. However, this is further exaggerated by his second weakness. Mobility. Mordekaiser has no way to close the distance with his opponent to deal damage effectively. No way to increase his own movement speed, no dashes. Couple this with his low range, and it does make him quite weak against a lot of currently strong and popular champions that are currently "in meta". Finally, and possibly the largest of them, is no CC. Absolutely zero crowd control abilities. Along with no mobility and low range do make Mordekaiser quite weak.

All champions should have weaknesses that can exploited to create a healthy game. I understand that. But they should also actually have strengths. From what I have read so far, you are planning on reducing one of Mordekaiser's few strengths without much compensation. I am a little worried that Mordekaiser might turn into the new Skarner. Mostly forgotten, and without much of role to fit.

Ánnîe 2/13/2015, 8:27:42 AM10 votes

This wont solve any of mordes problems. how do you help a champion who only has damage to offer and just lost a core item? make sure his damage isn't burst and try to make him a bruiser nobody will care about. will he cc you? nope. is he going to catch you if hes the last one left? nope. is he going to kill you? probably not now that riot no longer wants him to be a burst mage but wont give him the tools a bruiser needs.

KazeNekochan2/13/2015, 5:44:10 AM10 votes

if hes going to be a fighter are you gonna give him some kind of cc a slow on his cone or shield (and maybe making it castable on enemies) would be a cool idea

i love morde and have always loved his tanky side more than his burst side so im really looking forward to this

Tengrichan2/13/2015, 10:19:00 AM9 votes

Why do you want to keep the current ultimate so much riot? Is it that good?Is it satisfying to use?Is it fun to use?Because it created all kind of problems.Do you actually now how much damage his lvl1 "ultimate" deals?Because i would not call it an ultimate. Also i sense this will be a half-assed rushed mini rework...

True Little Boy2/13/2015, 9:22:42 AM9 votes

A suggestion. Mordekiser's abilities all cost HP. Why not have them scale with HP as well? Encourage a bruiser to be a bruiser by giving damage for tank stats. Nothing crazy. The problem is when you have tops like scion and maokia who have all the CC in the world, you need a reason to take a Mordekiser. Damager could be that niche

Kurai Okami2/13/2015, 8:32:42 AM9 votes

i think Mordekaisers biggest weakness is being kited. and if you take away his burst, why will anyone pick him? i really like the magnet idea but if your going to reduce his damage you should make it so he can throw his shield on enemy's so he has a speed boost while running towards them

Levitos2/14/2015, 12:35:50 PM8 votes

Thought I'd weigh in on the sea of negativity that seems to be surrounding this overall change...

Hello there, hopefully this ends up being read at least partially because I'd really would like to have some impact on the well-meant castration of my favorite champion. To begin with i think we need to step outside the realms of theoretical damage here for a moment, and just focus on what actually happens in lane for Mordekaiser. Morde's lanes are completely binary. Either the enemy can poke him low enough to kill him, or they cannot. There is no in-between for the most part unless ganked or otherwise unbalanced. Champions can be harassed by him if Morde shields minions or Qs and pops in with an E, but generally-speaking half of his abilities require his opponent to be in melee range. This isn't so bad until you realize two things: 1.) Morde has inherent problems connecting ANY ability to a champion that does not wish to fight him, and 2.) people are fully capable of literally, LITERALLY walking away from Morde. Not juking. Not ccing. Not even popping a summoner. Just simply strolling away from him. It requires zero skill to kite Morde. You don't need slows, you don't need a team mate. Only one ability of his can hit you every 4 seconds with decent cdr as long as you just walk away from him a little after you hit him with something. In theory this is great counterplay!!! In practice it makes it literally impossible to feel like you're doing anything productive with Morde. You ALWAYS have to wait for your opponent to engage on you since you lack any meaningful way to force a fight. THAT is Morde's strength. He always has had a deceptive amount of damage, and punishes people who engage on him in melee range. If the opponent never has to close into melee range like Lux, then the Morde player can literally do nothing and pray for a ghost.

At least a dozen people have had sincere comments detailing the reasons why he should be given at least a little mobility or cc to make up for his lack of damage. In the proposed rework he's a glorified minion. His ultimate isn't, nor was it ever, a "nuke", nor is it really a utility option. It's situational, and with the damage and drain being shifted from the damage it does to a godawful 2% of his maximum health, it's become the worst ult in the game. The damage his ult does EVEN at late game can be soaked with a health potion. It's really cool to say it does 40% of his maximum health over 10 seconds, but when that's 2% hp per second, on most people that's 20-50 hp per second... I can literally count on my fingers when i've killed people with the DoT component of Morde's ult. Morde's ult isn't a tool to help him win, It's a bonus for overkill that can occasionally be used to push a tower or participate in a team fight.

In all honesty, why not just completely rework his Q? It's useless. It serves zero purpose except as a last resort to clear a wave or win a trade with someone who is in melee. With lichbane, it offers decent damage but seeing as you hate the idea of Morde doing damage, why not just make it into an ability that people actually have the opportunity or inclination to use. In fact, even though I HATE to give it up, why not just scrap Morde's ult? In all honesty it doesn't quite make sense with his kit to begin with. He controls metal and pain, when did that extend to resurrecting the souls of the dead? Don't get me wrong, I've been able to use Morde's ult to win team fights from time to time, but at the end of the day it might honestly need to go for the health of the champion. Like Sion's entire kit, it has huge reliability issues. You have a 10 second window to kill somone, otherwise Morde's role in team fights is completely gone since the only damage he'll be doing from now on is with Liandrys burn to the front line.

I truly do hate that all of this is mostly negative feedback, and I do truly appreciate the effort going into Morde, but a lot of these changes feel like all the things that destroyed Gragas. Hell, Gragas is looking healthier than Morde after this. His shield gains have just gotten... tiny. 4% max health is incredibly small. At 1000 hp it's 40 hp. Somewhere along levels 8-10, Morde will be able to shield up to soak 40 damage from an opponent with his q, and deal inconsequential damage. To me this is just bad design considering you already have a champion whom you never get to use half his abilities on, and then make them unrewarding once you finally DO get to use his abilities. I agree with a lot of people, having a tanky morde isn't a bad idea, but you've metaphorically found out Morde had a scratch (dfg removal, which ironically few people used), cut his balls off, and then gave him a band aid to compensate him. For gods sake, why does he NEED to be easily kited at this point? He doesn't do meaningful damage, so what's the point in being able to outmanuever him? To avoid taking the equivalent of a minion wave worth of damage?

I'd offer suggestions, but frankly it doesn't seem likely that this will be read to begin with considering the overwhelming negativity that's been voiced around this that has seemed to be relatively ignored thus far, so I'd prefer to not waste the effort. I don't mind so much if my suggestions don't make it, but at least listen to what a lot of people have been saying the in forums. It doesn't make you a bad designer to draw from other people's ideas. Hell it take a lot of balls to implement a suggestion put forth by a member of the community (case in point, the lack of it ever having happened to my knowledge). I don't mean to criticize so harshly, but quite frankly I think a lot of us feel helpless in watching someone we enjoyed playing, even though we knew deep down he wasn't really that viable, go to be someone who's unrewarding to play, unsatisfying to use, and frustrating to even figure out how to justify using. It's all fine and good to put % max hp as his gains, but it does nothing but diversify the things Morde needs to buy to be effective which is something he already had a hell of a time doing to begin with. At the very least PLEASE keep at least some AP ratio to his shield gain so people can try to ignore this "rework".

HumanPerfect2/13/2015, 12:42:06 PM8 votes

So let me get this straight. Riot changes Morde's role because it doesn't fit his "fantasy" and APPARENTLY, a short-range, immobile burst mage is hard to balance....

Yet they have openly admit that Shen being a tank as opposed to an actual ninja makes no sense and they have been gutting him for years because of his playstyle.... BUT they refuse to change him because people are attached to his playstyle?

Meddler

Shen's an interesting one. There's definitely some mismatch between his theme and his gameplay. Mechanically he's a health stacking tank who gradually grinds you down, bit of a contrast to his image as a 'traditional' looking ninja and the expectations of speed, damage, stealth, assassination etc that go with it. We'd aim to avoid such a mismatch if making him today, he's got an established playstyle and players though so it's not necessarily appropriate to try and change that at this point.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/alR9fGRR-can-we-replace-aatroxs-ultimate-steroid-with-an-aoe-fear?comment=000c00050000

I mean, I'm willing to give this new Morde a shot as much as the next guy, but their logic definitely seems off... If it's truely that difficult to balance a glass cannon burst mage with zero mobility and zero CC in a game where every single new champion has several forms of gap closing/escapes+CC... And then turning him into the only bruiser with no form of CC or gapcloser... but oh, a nifty shield? In a game with things like Kalista...? I truly must see this.........

Sincarnation2/13/2015, 8:52:21 AM8 votes

Not gonna lie, my first reaction is that these are horrible changes. Making his shield scale off of max Hp? I get that thematically he looks like a tank, but I really dont want to see him become one. The problem is that you have waited so long to touch Morde that him being mobility and cc-less are a core part of his identity now. Who wants a tank with no mobility or cc?

Next is his ult, im down for simplifying the stats the ghost gives. While I dont like the idea of the ghost giving stats based off of its Hp/Ap it does give some trade offs though they will likely rarely be relevant, cuz you should be ult'ing their adc 8/10 times.

Maybe its the whole once bitten, twice shy thing but after the Gragas rework I have little faith that you are going to be able to make morde into a fun AP bruiser. Though to be fair that might be due to a lack of effective itemization options for that archetype. I always feel like I don't have enough damage to really matter, but I'm not tanky enough to genuinely tank.

Shíny2/13/2015, 5:45:25 AM8 votes

How drastic are these damage changes? Will this affect his laning and wave clear?

Ale non è male2/13/2015, 9:29:47 AM8 votes

And for enemies, Mordekaiser is no longer a moving short range cannon, but slow metal tank who can be kited

Ehm, sorry? Mordekaiser was yet a slow metal tank which was consistently kited by anyone which had even a small MS boost, even if someone when DFG was available played with the bursty "explode someone, get a Ghost, roll over the game" pattern. Morde had a chance to get to the enemy only if the enemy couldn't just back-off and hit him from a longer distance and had the shield yet a bit charged Does it mean no help at all on mobility/soft CC, except for this "magnete thing" when putting the W shield on an ally? Not even a small slow on Q?

Another question, will the shield have different values depending on who Morde cast the shield - will Morde get a bigger armor/MS/damage boost if he cast it on itself, or will be the same value than casting it on an ally -?