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AP Items are in one of the worst states ever

Mid Nidalee·5/27/2019, 4:55:17 PM·11 votes·2,979 views

The current overview of AP items does not allow very big item diversity in the build paths. It also does not provide AP Bruisers or AP Assassins adequate build paths without heavily favoring Mages.

AP Items do not allow a build path that sustains any diversity. Most AP champions build Luden’s Echo, and fill out the end of the build with Rabadon’s Deathcap and Void Staff. That is 3 items that nearly every mage is building each game.

AP Bruisers do not have adequate build paths to sustain the playstyle. Any AP items that give resistances benefit Mages as much as Bruisers and Mages are still building the AP Items that give health.

AP Assassins are building the same items as AP mages with nearly no change in build path.

There are quite a few AP items with problems, but I am only going to talk about 3 of them, as they are the heaviest offenders of the problems.

  1. Luden's Echo: With Deathfire Grasp being removed, Luden's echo was giving some of the burst back to Assassins, while less burst.. it provided waveclear and MS. Currently, Luden’s echo builds out of Lost chapter which is very problematic. This means that mages will rush Luden’s echo, giving mages even more waveclear than they already had putting Mid lane Assassins at a disadvantage, taking away from roam opportunities. Removing the movement speed on the item hurt Assassins a lot.

Proposed fixes: Switching Luden's Echo with Spellbinder, making Spellbinder the Mana/CDR Item with Lost Chapter and getting old Luden's back. There may be other ways to fix this problem, but that is the point of this discussion.

  1. Banshees Veil: Banshees does not offer AP Bruisers enough defensive stats, while giving too much offense. it really only is benefiting mages currently. When do you see a Galio, Sylas, Mordekaiser, or any other AP Bruiser-like champion going Banshees? You don't. You see it being built on champions like Syndra, Ahri, and others.

Proposed fixes: Add health to the item build path and remove CDR. Once again, there are probably other ways to fix this item but this is just a quick thought.

  1. Morrelonomicon: This item in the past, and still is overloaded. It offers flat pen, (which ad champions had reworked to lethality because of how strong flat pen was) grevious wounds, health, and ability power.

Proposed fixes: Remove grevious wounds, create a new item similar to AD Carry build paths where there is a 2nd Void staff but with less pen and grevious wounds added. I think a lot of players would support a change like this.

That all being said, there are more problems with AP items that exist but I wanted to go over some things that come to mind while playing Mid lane.

18 Comments

La Bello5/27/2019, 6:34:04 PM6 votes

when it comes to mage "Bruiser" I dont see a way you can differentiate between the two items.

see Marksmen have Attack Speed as a kinda secondary Lever for controlling which pool of champs who buys what. for Marksmen you have Flat AD HP Penetration Attack Speed<- IMPORTANt CRITICAL STRIKE<- IMPORTANT

for Mages its Flat AP HP Penetration

and thats kinda it.... because mages dont have those other levers to kinda specify between wanting to do some damage and wanting to deal a LOT of damage. so really its on Riot to instead go look at champions they want to be "Bruiser mages" and mess around with the ratio and numbers so item 3089 is unattractive on them but item 3001 is instead. They have to induce bad ratio's and item scaling but introduce better results for maybe building HP or resist instead.

I think its a rookie mistake to make Shields that SCALE WITH ABILITY POWER and then expect people to build "tank" instead of the ability power force multiplier Deathcap. It's like the Riven shield predicament exasperated almost hilariously though.

Voluug135/27/2019, 7:24:02 PM3 votes

I was going to agree until

had putting Mid lane Assassins at a disadvantage, taking away from roam opportunities.

Midlane assassins arent victims here and a non-battlemage that builds Luden's before Zhonia's is literally a free kill for any midlane assassin.

boricCentaur15/27/2019, 5:44:27 PM2 votes

Banshees veil is a not supposed to be a bruiser item. Idk why you would think that. In my opinion items should not be moved to be bruiser items but new items should be introduced to let ap bruisers have itemization.

And the main problem is that ap items(out side of bruisers) is they do too much for assassins and mages since they give every stat they need without giving up a stat.

In my opinion riot need to make ap items have choices like revert luden's and make a new item that gives mana but a low amount of ap stuff like that since that's how you diversify you make champions have to choose.

Theorex5/27/2019, 9:03:24 PM2 votes

The problem with AP items is that, they would have to change everything. And that would be a pre season thing to do.

First. Zhonya's is too strong of an item and give no room for new ones. It would require them to remove zhonyas. And create two new options in place of it. Something like Maw and something like QSS. WHILE not completely killing all play potential.

Meaning that instead of a massive shield that maw would give, it gives a smaller shield while reducing all of your spells CD's by a %. And another one that gives tenacity for a duration after activating it.

% and Flat pen.

Morello and Void take up both of those slots.

You would have to change void to make it so that you have two options, one that scales per spell cast, and another one that is flat but isn't nearly as strong. Weakening that one shot potential. While still giving options.

Morello, lower the AP and create a new one that scales off of AP.. Like 5 flat per 175 AP.

mana items are just a fucking mess because they are the star items right now. Hard to imagine anything other than them. Seraphs, Ludens, GLP.

RABADONS is the BIGGEST problem of all AP items. 100% that we are stuck in this AP itemization issue because of Rabadons.

Its fine to give 120 AP. But +35% MAX AP at ALL items is a problem. Because it just makes everything much more complex. If anything, it forces everyone to get a rabadons because it is just too strong. I would be okay with the removal of its passive, and instead increase the AP of other AP items by 10-15 each. And create two baller items. In place of rabadons.

Maybe something like, convert 10% of your magic damage to true damage. Which is much more balancable on AP champions than AD champions, since all AP champions have CD's.

And another one being, every 5 cast of a spell, you get a free charge of that spell. Which would be very interesting. But the pay off is that CC, Damage, and Buffs only last 50% of the duration for Ultis. So you don't want to only get this item for Ulti spam every 5 spells. LB. Looking at you. Diana. You too. Also its affect would HAPPEN after the actual spell has been used. This gives plenty of window of opportunity, while also give a very powerful tool.

You can also play around with different numbers to make it more fair. Since it is based on Spell Cast and % duration/Damage/buff.

Don't even get into damage item. That is a monster on its own. Because they are unfair by nature. They either provide too much or too little. If a damage item is going to be made, it needs to be a stand alone. AP and Damage. No CDR, No Healing, No Slows, No Dashes, No Amps. Nothing. They can be affected by the champions AMPs and other stuff, but it by itself can not have anything tied to it. It makes the items 100% easier to balance this way as well. The item has a 25% win rate? Increase the damage it provides, the item has a 75% win rate, decrease the damage.

These type of items should never be a staple in any build, they should be situational.

Ragnaveil5/27/2019, 4:57:21 PM2 votes

I mean, Abyssal got changed into practically a useless tank item. I'd rather that be a AP bruiser/fighter item than a tank item. Rather get a better mr item in its place.

RaQqa5/27/2019, 5:27:08 PM2 votes

item 3078 item 3071 first items, item 3748 item 3230 second item ,item 3053 third item,item 3026 item 3812 4th item. U got it almost on every bruiser. Adcs have 2 build paths, it's usually on hit build or crit one. Almost no one have item diversity in this game. Ad assassins have to build lethality while mages and ap assassins just buy ap items, there are few exceptions in every role which build diffrent build paths than their role for example Ezreal Kayle.

If they would create separated items for ap bruisers,assassins they would be used by normal mages too, mages, ap bruisers, assassins,are less reliant on AA, they use mainly their skills, that's why it's so hard to make ap items for everyone of them. These item's would require really creative and smart passives just to be used well on every of ap role. I played the game SMITE a bit, but I think in this game items are made much better than in LoL. We would need to add at least 4 ap items with totally new passives, to make new build paths for ap assassins and ap bruisers.

Śhunpo5/28/2019, 12:04:12 AM1 votes

Getting old Luden's back?

[katarina-love]

You have both myself and my sadistic knife lady of a main interested.

Ares DuVamp5/28/2019, 9:00:14 PM1 votes

Why not add this to the rift with minor tweaks?item 3170

Critmaster Garen5/28/2019, 9:03:15 PM1 votes

what ap bruisers? at this point there are less than a handful in this game.

the ones who are arent struggling. especially not because of items.

let me list every champion that could be considered an ap bruiser in league of legends.

Diana Ekko Elise Mordekaiser Sylas Rumble

there. thats it. some of those require a lot of fantasy not to be considered assassins.

diana? shit because of her kit, not because of the items available to her.

ekko? has perfectly fine itemization and doesnt struggle with it.

elise? has no difficulties with itemization. shes one of the most competitive champions in the game when viable.

morde? reworked next patch and has ad scalings. he doesnt have to rely on 100% ap itemization.

sylas? no fucking problem here.

rumble? absolutely no problems here either.

like if you introduced more actual strong ap bruiser itemization to this game, you would have to nerf almost every champion on that list around those items. so whats the point? as a bonus, youre also risking to break the entire class of mages and battle mages, and maybe even certain tanks. so thats always great. lets give vlad more ammunition in his current state.