Boards›Gameplay

Midlane for an immobile mage is a nightmare

SwiftCrane·5/19/2018, 5:33:51 AM·44 votes·14,409 views

This is a bit of a rage ("just lost to a zed") post. Even though I'm thoroughly tilted I think I can still be at least a little objective on this.

As a person who plays mostly immobile mages midlane (Xerath, heimerdinger, syndra, karthus), what do I ban when there are so many assassins like what I'm about to describe?

There's a lot of options to ban but the main two champs that I hate are fizz and zed. There's plenty more that I'd love not to face but don't ban because there are larger priorities.

I don't play against fizz often because I ban him pretty much every game. Ridiculous damage, ranged soft CC with damage, double mobility (including over walls and overall safety from: low CD invincibility), bleed. This champ gets on top of me if I'm anywhere besides cowering behind my tower. If I play really safe he of course roams and nobody listens to my MIAs (low gold) and he gets fed.

I honestly can't deal with this champ. Never had fun against him, never remember winning lane against one.

This is my ONE ban. I make sure he's banned every game because I always regret it if I don't.

So what do I do if a champion like zed isn't banned?

(RANT STARTS HERE)

Legit, what is the counter-play to zed? Someone spell it out for me, cause it's NOT CC, or zhonyas. None of it works, zhonyas is god awful and barely helps with his damage, CC counters everything and mages that aren't malzahar don't have great CC. He just waits everything out and kills me anyways.

(NOTE: putting champion abilities into lists isn't always constructive so I made sure to explain why each mentioned item makes the list)

He's an ASSASSIN and according to riot it's fine that he has the following:

1.) mobility of the best type (blinks) -also untargeted so can use to go in AND out 2.) mobility of insane range (can blink more than half a screen away) 3.) Invulnerability on ult 4.) Ranged (VERY HIGH potential) burst with shurikens

Let's pause. Up to here, imo the champ is already too good at everything. His diving and 1v1ing is ridiculously good, so is his poke. His roams are incredible also.

recap so far he has: -good in -good kill -good out

What's the weakness of Zed compared to say... diana? Most champs sacrifice in one area to be good in another (for diana this would be sacrificing "out" and possibly other areas for burst?) What does Zed sacrifice/lack in that other assassins do well?

Fine let him be overloaded...

But, the list doesn't end there, NOT EVEN CLOSE:

5.) No resources (energy is a joke compared to mana) 6.) Insane SAFE wave clear for an assassin 7.) Insane SAFE poke for an assassin 8.) percent health damage passive so he can be good in lategame 9.) Triple gap closer potential with flash+blink+ult (last one is even point and click and IT EVEN FOLLOWS YOU) 10.) great ratios

With electrocute he spams his easy to land poke combo until it hits and does half your health (and this eventually happens, especially in lower elo it's not really reasonable to never get hit). If he has ult and can get to you, you're most likely dead.

He eventually out waveclears you because he has no mana bar. Out roams out because following him in jungle is suicide. If you end a laning phase as a squishy mage and you haven't died to him a few times, he's either awful or you've played like a god.

And all of this on top of having to rush zhonyas (and item that is terrible in itself especially with the new mana changes). This being an item that doesn't even guarantee safety from him as most scenarios he can just wait it out.

Zed on the other hand just gets hexdrinker and you do no damage, run out of mana and get either pushed out of lane or dove.

Armor items are NOT the counter to him unless you build a lot of them (doesn't work for mages).

CC isn't a counter to him, it's a counter to everything and HE's ESPECIALLY hard to hit with it. Just because you can predict where he will be when he ults, doesn't mean your CC will do anything. Most times he doesn't even need to ult to kill you.

I honestly want to ban him, but fizz is worse.

(END RANT)

Is there a way to play against him I'm missing? Am I just supposed to not go to lane when he hits 6? Build pure armor health on ap champs? I'm at a loss.

What do?

106 Comments

Mataka Tek5/19/2018, 8:50:56 AM13 votes

I hear you. Although lately, Talon is WAY worse than Zed. Midlane Irelia is appearing now and destroying. The problem is that low mobility mages like Karthus, Malzahar have no real escape. Karthus has his slow wall and Malz has a silence. But those don't help when most of these enemy champs have mobility skills that can "go thru" the spell area without being affected before we can throw up any defense.

Top lane champs are coming mid because low mobility Mages are easy pickings. Come to think about it, gonna post on that one.

AirKingNeo5/19/2018, 3:58:24 PM5 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/middle/diamond

zoe vlad tf are all in top 10 pickrates mid lane

immobile mages are fine.

D2Vincent5/19/2018, 8:36:26 AM5 votes

as a Karthus main, here's what I like to do against zed, just for future reference. (also can work against a yasuo sorta)

To start, I like going Electrocute on Karthus with Cheap Shot, Eyeball collection, Ravenous hunter with Presence of Mind and Last stand (both now work in Karthus passive). Preferred summs are Flash/Exhaust because Karthus is one of the few mages who can get away with this. Starting in game, you actually want to take a second point in E for the extra damage and mana recovery (you can actually start W at 5 or even 7 if you're confident you won't get ganked by then).

As for build, I like to take tear into Seekers, and your main 3 items will be AAS, Zhonya's, and Sorc shoes. If Zed tries to all-in you early, turn on E immediately, exhaust him, and if you do have W, wait until he tries to port away to throw the wall and throw down the skittles all while you're doing it. With Tear, you should be able to have enough mana to not go oom. Just a warning, you should be careful of any incoming ganks as usual. If you can beat the zed in lane, he'll be super squishy against you later in the game and the Electocute does wonders.

Solidair35/19/2018, 4:00:46 PM5 votes

I mean, the answer is to pick reactively? Like if they pick an assassin, play an anti-assassin. If you pick your unsafe, vulnerable to assassin mage and then lose lane really bad, like sorry, but you got counter picked and now you have to deal with it?

Some champions have advantage over others, that's the point of a diverse champion pool.

Personally, I've been dealing with assassins with Lissandra. She's an excellent anti-assassin and a decent teamfighting mage with pretty good gank assist. I suppose Lissandra isn't imobile, so if you're looking for a true immobile option, Zilean is always a good choice. Hhis stun deals a ton of damage and he's an excellent utility mage in mid. Most assassins can't kill him thanks to his ult, and they can't kill your carry late game, either, because you can ult them instead.

I think most mages and mid laners are in a pretty reasonable place right now, but you've to be willing to make switches and play defensively if you're getting countered.

KlydeFrog5/19/2018, 3:06:04 PM5 votes

So here is your solution. Ready? Play zilean counters every one you described. Having problems with zed zilean is your friend. He will ult you only once then he will realize how futile it is.

Stars Shaper5/19/2018, 3:14:32 PM5 votes

It's not even a Zed problem.

When I play Xerath I simply can't help any offlaner if I'm not escorted by a tanky dude with good peel. It doesn't matter if I am 0/2 or 20/0, any attempt at roaming (even if just to be in range for my Ult) is just a test of luck because the moment I'm in range of the enemy Assassin or the enemy Jungler I'm dead meat. And this basically screws any game I play in which my botlane doesn't dominate from early to late game.

Now add the incoming AD items to the equation and see how any artillery that isn't Kog'maw will become completely useless because even full AD characters won't be threatened by any damage I can do as a long range mage. It will be back to Orianna and Syndra, mass CC will always be more fruitful than any raw damage I can do with Xerath... not to mention that both of them can easily do comparable burst damage.

Inb4 "But Xerath can do it from half a map away", no he can't. His ultimate damage can be of any threat if he is already fed and his burst combo forces him to be in a rather close range if he wants to hit all the spells. Poke damage becomes rapidly useless and it's even more dependant on how previously fed you were since every1 who has access to life steal, MR or Warmog will simply get back to full in few seconds against anything that isn't the 4 items ADC.

Its All Skillzz5/19/2018, 5:50:55 PM4 votes

pick Chogath He wins lane vs zed, there is nothing zed can do you sustain all poke you can silence an knock him up when he ults you, and your ult does more damage than his + you are mega tanky. a good cho can not be beaten by any zed player. zed needs kills an if he cant kill you he has to leave lane and cho has great aoe to push wave, so if your bot lane plays safe an listens to your ping, you basically make the game 4 vs 5

Ifneth5/19/2018, 5:02:45 PM4 votes

Ban him. It’s what I do. There are ways to beat him, but they’re not fun.

  1. Zed needs kills to get ahead and snowball the map. If you don’t die in lane, then he can’t do that. Your whole laning phase must revolve around not dying, which revolves around avoiding interaction.

  2. Avoiding interaction requires enough mana sustain to contest his waveclear, enough health sustain to survive his poke, enough ability power to clear the wave and scare him off, and enough armor to defeat his lethality. A very specific build and secondary rune choice delivers exactly this.

Starting Items: Doran’s Ring + 2 Pots First Back: Doran’s Ring Second Back: Boots of Speed and Cloth Armor Third Back: Seeker’s Armguard

Runes: Biscuit Delivery for sustain and Perfect Timing for a Zhonya’s Rush.

  1. Do not play to win the lane. Shove the wave constantly to force him to use his abilities to shove. Watch your mana. Shove to his turret once you’re below half and then base. You’ll lose turret health and some minions, but a CS difference and turret health advantage are not enough for Zed to carry.

Buying Seeker’s Armguard basically shuts Zed down. Every last-hit earns you more ability power to clear and poke with and more armor to survive Zed’s poke and all-in. Your Commencing Stopwatch should become available soon after Zed gains his ultimate, denying it. Rush Zhonya’s Hourglass, and unless the lane has gotten so out of hand that Zed has roamed for kills, he’ll only fall off from now on.

But this requires a strategy designed totally around Zed and whatever he wants to do in lane. It’s not fun. So just ban him.

Beacon Academy5/19/2018, 6:10:43 PM4 votes

I feel ya man. I play Veigar

I ban Fizz because of that bs pole dance and teammates dying to roams, but Zed, Fizz, and Leblanc are my big three no-no's

I have more fun laning against an aggressive Azir/Lux or even an Ekko/Diana

Doesn't matter if they shove and bully me out of lane occasionally.

At least they aren't mobile up the ass and can be handled later.

Zhonya's has always been useless/hated for me.

Cause they can just hit you afterwards

Nyarlathοtep5/19/2018, 8:52:21 AM3 votes

Im feeling you my brother.

Akumu5/20/2018, 7:26:23 AM3 votes

https://gfycat.com/InsidiousOrdinaryFirecrest

Heres a perfect example. I even have fucking item 3191 and lose 65% of my hp just to his poke combo.

Burst damage in this game is absolutely fucking stupid this season. It used to be that when you played Zed you had land a few full poke combos before you could all in and get a kill. Now you just mash you fucking face, literally land one combo w in auto once ignite and you 100-0 your opponent.

MorganFreemanBot5/19/2018, 9:24:45 PM3 votes

The irony here is that immobile mages (except Xerath) unilaterally shit on Zed.

Most immobile mages have enough of a range advantage that Zed has to really go out of his way to bully them, making it easy to read and avoid. They also tend to have stronger early games and much stronger bully potential; Zed's a non-factor pre-3, and he's not even really dangerous until level 6. No really, Heimer skull-fucks Zed from level 1 to level 18. Anivia, Cass, Ryze, and Annie also shove it up his poop pipe all game long. Just about the only immobile mages Zed can square up well agaisnt are Ori and Veigar, though even Vegar can make his life a living hell pretty easily.

The key with immobile mage vs zed comes in two parts;

'#1: Punish him for getting near the wave. Anivia and Cass are exceptional at this; they can lay down their ground based aoe in such a way that he cannot get to the creeps without stepping in it, which forces him to either blow his poke in order to CS, or lose health / CS in huge portions.

'#2: Use Zed's pre-set positioning to ruin his day with hard CC. Veigar and Anivia, again, have an ace in the hole here. Oh noes, Zed has activated his R! Let me just throw down my stun cage / precast my ice-ball RIGHT where I KNOW he will be in EXACTLY 1 second. Zed subsequently comes out of his R into an unavoidable stun, and proceeds to lose the majority of his health to the ensuing combo. The same goes for Zed's W; he can be mobile, but he's not at all slippery / difficult to read in said mobility.

Bonus round: Point-and-click (Ryze and Annie) can easily pack Zed's fudge in if he strays within range, because getting nailed to the ground and unloaded into is a trade he won't win.

Raveolution5/19/2018, 6:37:31 PM3 votes

GG, try banning us all. oh wait, you can't. Ekko Fizz Katarina Leblanc Talon Yasuo Zed

If you want to play immobile mages and win, all you gotta do is start playing Veigar exclusively. Play super safe, go TP/flash, and get spell book. You can even build full tank and still destroy almost anyone throughout most of the game.

Noor Sakata5/20/2018, 2:42:19 AM2 votes

Immobile ? heeh , as an Ahri main , even if I had 3 dashes , Zed is impossible to win against also add " Zed doesn't honestly need Hexdrinker " because your full combo still can't kill him , He will outdamage you anyway , generally I main Lux Ahri Taliyah and I play a lot of mid laners , and as someone who is in low gold too , I perma ban Zed , like always , Fizz has lower pick rate , especially in low Elo including Low Gold ,just ban Zed , yeah Fizz is completely stronger , but he isn't picked as much as Zed in this Elo , if you still don't wanna ban him , just don't care if you die , nothing will change , just try to roam and hope that you won't meet him on your way to bot lane and Zed honestly isn't a hard to play champion at all , I mean even if you hit only 1 Shurinkan , you can still do a lot , but since Zed is harder to predict , it means he can do a lot if played well , so honestly if most of Zed player base wasn't from those Yasuo Lee Zed mains , and wouldn't get tilted or troll or flame , Zed would have had more than 60% winrate

Titanium705/19/2018, 7:06:51 PM2 votes

TBH - it got ALOT better this patch.

Assassins are freakking annoying to deal with and from a gamedesign point there are many questionable kits... However what made most Assassins lanes so hilarious was not the guys them selfes but the JGL camping you whenever you tried to zone or poke.

Especially during the early (where Assassins are really vulnerable) this threat has dimished since the JGL has other things to do. A mage has all the tools to bully an Assassins around in early - use them, get a lead and know when you have play passive.

With the exceptions of Zed (which is why he's permadbanned in my games) no Assassin can one shot you at 6 given you have everything up AS LONG as they dont already have lead!

Sniperkaj5/19/2018, 5:58:47 PM2 votes

As a fellow Xerath main, dont pick Xerath when Zed is still on the table. He can towerdive you, tank your entire combo, while still killing you. The main problem is that you can stun him every time he ults, but it will only last 0.5 seconds, and after that he is free to kill you. If you are in Q range, he is in W-> Ult range, and can thus kill you. Zhonyas doesn't work, as Xerath actually has manacosts and low base damages, unlike Riots newer champs. Zed is Xeraths hardest counter, after (you guessed it) Fizz.

For a Zed counter, Orianna works much better with shield + exhaust, and somewhat sustained dmg from Q + AA. Lissandra can work but has too low dmg to have any other impact (+QSS hardcounter). Ahri is a decent blindpick, as she can outplay Zed if she is more skilled.

Finally, with Irelia coming into the mid meta, try to learn her. I would assume she beats Zed hard.

mack91125/19/2018, 5:27:12 PM2 votes

I play velkoz xerath veigar mid , just play safe farm from afar and poke very easy lane of your control the lane . Let the wave push to your side of the lane and since you are an immobile make with better wave clear you can dictate the flow of the lane. Play it safe and when teamfights start do your thing. If you are still having trouble try picking up Cho as a counterpick works for me evrytime

SeaChange5/19/2018, 8:04:58 PM2 votes

we need a new chapter item that has an active that helps survive lanes like this and is viable for more mages. Building defensive is too expensive, and leaves mages without the ability to outplay at all.

The Beholder5/19/2018, 2:43:04 PM1 votes

As someone trying to get put of silver, Ive decided to just one trick malzahar due to my 8 game win streak yesterday. He is (imo) one of, if not the only, mage that can beat assassins. Granted, im in silver, so everyone is bad, but ive outlaned zeds, katarinas, LBs, etc (exepct fizz. No clue how to beat him, so he gets permabanned).

However, I get not everyone likeds Malz kit. Its not the most....engaging kit at times. My best advice, play a mage with some hard cc (like Xerath's E) and just save ot for the assassin when they dive you. But do not trying and trade. You cant win trades. Just poke. Mages are better lategame anyway

Kitten of Evil5/20/2018, 6:54:17 PM1 votes

People will point out that immobile mage mids have among the highest winrates consistently.

That's true, but the experience (i.e. the fun) of playing one has declined. You might be more useful in teamfights due to the utility of CC and AOE effects, but the laning experience is worse than ever. Zed, Yasuo, Fizz, and others have the ability to decide when to fight you, but as an immobile mage, you basically have no agency and no effect beyond your zone of control. You often can't safely follow your laner when they try to gank enemies, so you're forced into a non-interactive "push and forget" strategy. A strategy which Riot has consistently tried to nerf.

Damage has been ramped up. Mana sustain in lane is reduced. CS gold is loaded into cannon minions (trying to force early interaction). Wards and vision have been steadily weakened. Scuttle is now a must-contest for the jungler, which pressures mid to leave the safety of lane early. Towers are weak.

So this leads to the laning experience being miserable for the immobile mage, even while they are extremely powerful in teamfights. And that's unfortunate, because these days, the game is often decided before laning even ends.