These marksmen 'nerfs' are a joke and the balance team should legitimately feel ashamed

THE RlVER KlNG·5/4/2018, 11:49:45 AM·162 votes·22,785 views

ADCS have been overpowered for almost three years now. This is not hyperbole or exaggeration. Their itemization, the most powerful in the game, is also the cheapest. They have safe lanes, are all wholly target agnostic in their damage output, and have a long list of new unfair advantages that allow them to dominate and crowd out other damage classes and shred through tanks like they are butter. It's complete and utter bullshit and the vast majority of the community have been complaining about it for literal yearS now, years, with an s. When Riot finally announced that they were gonna be doing some sweeping nerfs to the class and that they are angling to bring variety to bot lane, I finally felt like we were going somewhere.

These changes are laughable. They are ridiculous. They are an enormous disappointment and, most egregiously, are a BUFF to marksmen in a lot of ways, as a lot of people have shown. Shave off a couple armor points to jack up their base and scaling HP. Double their crit chance, and convert some of it to true damage, which does relatively little to staunch ADC BPS (burst per second) where they output manaless, cooldownless critical strikes 2 to 3 times a second. You thought it was fucking hell to play against Yasuo or Tryndamere with Conqueror and PD before? Watch them laugh in your face as they beat your face in with 100% crit on 1-2 items and 40% of it is true damage. ADCs have too much armor pen options - nah, turn that shit back to total armor instead of bonus, that's totally not the reason you changed it in the first place. ADC items too expensive? Let's increase the cost by a measly 100-200 gold, instead of several hundred so that they are more on par with other class itemization, or even WORSE since ADCs are much safer and are supposed to be good later in the game. ADCs healing too much because lifesteal is an unfair mechanic on them? LUL let's decrease BT and BotRK prices, and just as a special fuck you to all the mages we just nerfed lets increase the cost efficiency of Maw and GA. Let's add an item with guaranteed crit that will warp top and bot lane meta's of just autoing your opponent every 2.5 seconds and abusing the free stats it gives you, and a new Domination keystone that's only good on ADCs (as if they didn't already have 3 keystones designed for them exclusively anyway).

At best, this is a small increase to item prices that the community has been fucking begging for for months. At worst (and this meta can't get much worse as it is), it's a net neutral change with big buffs to a lot of specific marksmen. Reading these changes, there are no meaningful, sweeping nerfs to the class as a whole, nothing at fucking all to reign in bot lane's monopoly on the entire game that they've had for 2 years. It's so ridiculous that the current balance team is actually physically incapable of nerfing the real problems in the game without giving them some sort of compensation buff or shit. They'll gut Tahm's E restore but do absolutely nothing to the real tank support offender, Ali; they'll nerf the shit out of mages over and over so that they are nothing but waveclear slaves to bot lane but do literally everything in their power to keep assassins in meta and make sure they have every advantage possible under the sun. Don't believe me? Go and look at the Kha'Zix 'nerf' on the PBE.

217 Comments

rtbf2234347215/4/2018, 12:56:54 PM73 votes

All Crit based ADC's will be murderd next patch in terms of early game, they will be the same late game but will take longer to get all the necessary items.... this is what people wanted, right?

Non Crit ADC's may be buffed with the new ADC items, in general they will not focus in buying AS + Crit builds. They have a caster type play style and they have more opening for outplay. I think they will have a big advantage in lane vs Crit ADCs because of raw damage and idk if they will fall harder late game.

lolipopevelynn5/4/2018, 12:39:36 PM29 votes

IE gives double crit to everyone now, essentialy giving all adcs a yasuo passive.nvm the fact it now deals true dmg. I cant believe everyone is just ignoring that.

Mordepool5/4/2018, 12:23:42 PM24 votes

It's sad really.

Teridax685/4/2018, 3:27:10 PM20 votes

When a change is intended to be a large nerf to a class that, by the admission of the developers themselves, is far too strong, yet is already producing cases of champions becoming even stronger than before (such as Jhin with Stormrazor, again by a Rioter's own admission), there is a problem. The same applies due to the math players have done, which showed that the total power ADCs would end up with would make them stronger past a pretty low armor breakpoint (125). Whereas the mage changes were unambiguous nerfs, these changes are far more mixed, and it doesn't really seem like the intent is to truly nerf marksmen, so much as shift some power around, give them more options and make them into harder carries, which itself risks only further excluding non-marksmen from bot lane.

A common complaint is that marksmen have been overpowered for the last year, or the last two years, but I feel this misses a large part of League's history: marksmen haven't been mandatory just for the last two years, they've been essential to every team since the beginning of the game. Even in Seasons 2 or 3, if your team didn't have a marksmen, you were much more likely to lose. Marksmen have been too strong for far longer than just two years, and just because they had a more pronounced weak early game before does not mean they were perfectly balanced. Let's not forget that the stated goal of this update was to open bot lane up to non-marksmen for the first time in the game: how exactly do these marksman changes achieve this? What is a non-marksman going to need to get into bot lane after this? This is one of the reasons why I find the changes so disappointing, because even with a public that is largely willing to accept reverting marksmen to a previous state where they were already too strong, these changes still don't look like they'll even bring their power down to that bar.

sevenkill5/4/2018, 12:39:18 PM19 votes

Balance team? Does riot use a balance team on their changes? It seems they use the animating team as the balance team

HalcyonDweller5/4/2018, 5:42:35 PM16 votes

I don't understand, what would Riot have to do to make you happy? Would they have to gut marksmen and throw the class in a dumpster fire?

I agree that marksmen have been an issue, but it seems like you're just looking for excuses to demand over-nerfs.

ISeeDumbPeople5/4/2018, 3:36:13 PM14 votes

Wait wait hold the phone... we have a balance team for this game? I legit thought they just pull random buff and nerf cards out of a hat...

DuskDaUmbreon5/4/2018, 2:25:20 PM14 votes

Maybe they're not meant to be nerfs?

Not all class updates like this are supposed to be nerfs. The opposite is true, in fact - they're usually rebalancing.

So please actually spend some time to think before making comments on balance changes. You're assuming it's supposed to be a nerf, when it's just a power shift.

Targon5/4/2018, 4:07:04 PM12 votes

I can bet right now that the new Stormrazor (if it comes to live as its current iteration on the PBE) will be hugely problematic. An item that provides substantial upfront burst, its current form completely contradicts the work they've done to reduce this (e.g. nerfing Static Shiv + RFC damage). Can't wait for the Vayne tumble + AA to chunk you as though you got hit by a 40 minute Veigar Q >_>...

Even if this item is underwhelming on ADCs, it will certainly be strong on AD assassins and it will bring the exact same problems as Duskblade.

Overall, these marksman item changes feel very underwhelming. My opinions with these midseason changes:

The Good:

  • Zeal item price increases: This is exactly what people have been asking to be nerfed.
  • Last Whisper Nerfs.

The Neutral:

  • Lord Dominiks Regards Changes: I can't tell how impactful this will be against tanks with the removal of Giant's Slayer, but 35% total armor penetration is a TON and lethality ADCs will love this. The armor reduced by LDR on a target with 103 armor or more is higher than the armor reduced by 2 lethality items on a level 18 champion.
  • Infinity Edge: This item no longer being a viable first item for ADCs is a good thing, but the true damage passive is just over saturation of adding true damage to the game at this point, and is a sloppy way of dealing with their goal of making ADCs more effective against tanks and less effective against squishies.
  • Maw of Malmortius & Guardian Angel Buffs: Maw is weak in the mid/late game at the moment (but Riot still hasn't addressed how strong Hexdrinker is as an early buy in the mid game still) but I don't think ADCs will buy this item much more than they currently do, but it might be more enticing on bruisers. GA does not need buffs though

The Bad:

  • Stormrazor's: Upfront burst will likely make this item as difficult to balance as Duskblade.
  • Essence Reaver: This item will likely be polarizing. It will either be completely busted (e.g. on Lucian) or nerfed until its nearly unusable like the current state of Edge of Night.
  • Blade of the Ruined King: This item does NOT need buffs, and the 200g price decrease along with the 200g price increase of the zeal items means that BotRK + Runaans hasn't been changed at all.
Drugoth5/4/2018, 3:21:00 PM10 votes

If every attack is a critical strike, then none are. Fuck this item 3031 change.

[sg-shisa]

Almost Creative5/4/2018, 2:18:18 PM10 votes

Question: How huge of a nerf do you want them to be? You want them to be completely gutted while being 1-2 shotted at the same time?

Daddy Ants5/4/2018, 4:39:11 PM9 votes

It is exaggeration.

ADC's were perfectly fine until Riot went on a Support buffing spree.

Saianna5/4/2018, 4:23:59 PM9 votes

ADCS have been overpowered for almost two years now.

4-5 actually. They gone into hyper-retard mode after ADC itemization, though. Then every next class-rework only added power to them, while reworked classes were actually nerfed instead.

Shinjusuke5/4/2018, 5:14:03 PM8 votes

Me reading post

"Yeah, okay, kinda agree, makes sense, mhm..."

"...do literally everything in their power to keep assassins in meta and make sure they have every advantage possible under the sun"

"I'm sorry, lolWUT?!"

2-3 outliers are not the same thing as the whole class being favored by Riot. Assassins are literally their least favorite class. That's some amazing kool-aid you're drinking.

Sasogwa5/4/2018, 2:09:08 PM7 votes

Wow wow wow.

Let us calm down and list the changes :

  • IE Changes

Positive Impact : Delays the powerspike of AD carries into later into the game, slightly less anti-squishy Negative Impact : Still insane damage output, EVEN BETTER SCALING? uncounterable damage against tanks when we already think it's a problem high DPS is "only for adc's"

  • Zeal item changes

Positive : nerfs to cost that everyone wanted

  • Lifesteal item changes

Mitigated : buffed items? Yes lifesteal buys weren't too good and delayed powerspikes which was fine, but were buffs necessary and are these items going to be overwhelming? TBD

  • Base stats changes

Positive : less regen => higher need of lifesteal buys, delays powerspike, less armor early Negative : Tankier lategame? BUT WHY? Adc's are already too hard to kill

  • Changes to on-hit (almost none)

Negative : only buffs to botrk, nothing nerfed, nothing changed to delay powerspikes.

  • Changes to burst/letha

Mitigated : Stormrazor new item, so playstyle buffed? Yes it was somewhat weak but is this playstyle going to be overwhelming? TBD

Profirix5/4/2018, 3:31:55 PM4 votes

Referring to your Tahm comment, I was really angry when they nerfed Tahm, despite his abysmal win rate. All they care about is LCS. The champion has literally nothing going for him anymore. Hes slow, not really that tanky, and unless you get a clutch save with W, really doesn't DO anything.

LuthianDelphi5/4/2018, 11:54:48 PM4 votes

IE doesn't give the % damage increase on crits now, so if your critting for 1000 instead of your base 100 exaggerated numbers its gonna feel alot better to do that 100 to tanks and squishies rather than doing 1000 that the tank eats and u feel like u cant kill him and 1000 to the squishy that practically dies in 1 auto. It'll feel more consistant and shouldn't be as bad for mages to play against in general. Plus ADC's having less burst is all a mage should REALLY want bc if u cast all your spells and cant kill the adc and you cant get out for your cooldowns to come back up they should be able to win by autoing you to death anyways.