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@ platinum and better players - What are common mistakes low elo tanks make?

DU Baymax·6/24/2016, 12:46:14 AM·2 votes·1,313 views

I'm sitting at Gold 5 right now and I have a steady win rate with anivia mid of about 71% right now, and climbing. I'm confident in my abilities with her and typically do quite well, barring a few outliers. However, the problem is when I don't get mid lane. I cannot play tanks to save my life in team fights. I'm fine in laning phase top lane or ganking as a jungler, I typically have that down. When it comes to team fights though, it's clear to me that I don't know what I'm doing because despite having extremely high kdas on champions like Zac my win rate with him is absurdly low. I am not entirely sure what I should be doing, all I know is that I'm doing it wrong. So I'm reaching out to people who are better than me - What are common mistakes that lower-elo and less experienced players make when they play tanks? What should they do vs what they actually do? I realize that it changes from game to game and you can't tell me everything I need to know on a forum post, but what are the most common mistakes tank players make? (I want these mistakes to not be general mistakes that could apply to any type of champion, ie: don't ward enough, I want class-specific tips please)

I know I could be a beast with Zac and other tanks if I knew how to play them in team fights properly, but I just can't seem to do it right. Pls send help! xD

12 Comments

BloodyTompon6/24/2016, 8:36:33 AM2 votes

I was legit expecting somebody to comment 'the mistake is being low elo'

Defended6/24/2016, 2:26:50 AM1 votes

Ill try to help

Im an adc main but i play top ''Surprisingly'' im actually really confident when i play Shen.

First off Do not underestimate or overestimate your tankiness. You cant just run into 5 people and be like ''hey i can tank cos im tank'' No.

Build more properly

For instance

If theirs 1 ap on the enemy team and the rest AD. Would it be more wise to go Spirit visage Or Guardian angel? With spirit you get 55 MR, With GA you get 45 but 60 armor too and a revival..

So you benefit from both with GA.

Second thing i like is obviously going on the squishiest person. You dont want to hit another tank because every second you're doing that you're getting hit by the ADC.

As the tank you will PROBABLY die. As long as you gave your team enough time while you were ccing the adc or fed viktor ya know?

With zac you are definitly waited on to engage. Usually the zacs that engage start by going from the side where nobody sees them and hopping on the adc. Of course thats what zacs passive is for. Hes SUPPOSED to be the diver, thats why he comes back to life lol.

Jaygo416/24/2016, 2:46:21 AM1 votes

Figuring out jungle matchups is honestly one of the things that helped me the most

As much as playing a tank a lot of the time feels like the right answer, there's times when being able to play other stuff is really important. There's a reason to learn Lee Sin, and it's not just for LCS big plays.

Additionally, analysis of your own composition should be critical for what kind of champion you pick. Sticking with tanks, it's really important to know which comp will have an owness on it to engage. I'll give an example:

Your Team:

Top: Gangplank Mid: Syndra AD: Caitlyn Supp: Nami

Jungle:??

Opposing Team:

Top: Irelia Mid: Talon Jg: Nidalee Bot: Lucian Supp: Thresh

Looking at the teams, it's probably going to be the opposing team that has an owness on it to engage. If you can get the Syndra rolling early against the Talon, you'll have a much easier time. However, 2v2ing the Talon Nidalee is no easy feat. This tells me that you need early pressure, you need a super tank, and you need peel more than engage.

Your options at this point: Gragas, Rek'Sai, Nautilus, Lee Sin (If you're feeling feisty/You can get the utility you need out of him because you can meet that skill floor), Mao'kai, Rammus, Shen

Attractive options that may seem good but could be potentially disastrous: Jarvan IV, Zac, Warrior Lee Sin, Fiddlesticks

The reason I say that the first group is good and the last group is bad is because the first group can provide rock solid peel... Nautilus can ult someone instantly and root important people, Gragas can belly bop and barrel people away, Rek'Sai can unburrow immediately to stop an initiating Irelia or Nidalee, and Lee can kick someone.

The second group are initiators. You don't really have to engage on the opposing team, it's on them to engage assuming that you can peel them adequately. Jarvan won't help you much, he's just gonna EQ in and ult them and potentially get shredded. Zac has to charge up his E, and Talon might be able to dice your Caitlyn in time. Warrior Lee might be useless if you fall behind. Fiddle can get absolutely rekt by Nidalee in a Jungle 1v1 and unless you're a god, 2v2ing mid or top would be difficult.

Now I'm ofc not some jungle god or anything like that, but I have thousands of games of jungle playing against plats and diamonds and I consider myself a student of the game. This would be my advice. Envision how fights go and how you can advance the win conditions of your team. Know yourself and know your enemy just as well.

Swiftstrike46/24/2016, 9:34:28 AM1 votes

I am not Platinum (Gold IV), but I have been moving up and I main top. So I will give you some advice that was given to me from better players. I haven't been able to always APPLY this advice effectively, but playing Nasus which is an "off-tank", "damage tank", "juggernaut" or whatever you want to call him, makes it a bit more difficult to make zoning decisions quickly. Especially since I often would prefer to stay in lane and prefer split-pushing.

Zoning is your third option sometimes in teamfights that I see better players than myself do very effectively. You don't always need to engage or peel, but simply by keeping enemy damage dealers AWAY from your back line you may put your team in a better position to win the fight. You don't need to "tank" damage when doing this, but move in a way that you form a bubble around specific allies in a team fights or skirmishes. This can be highly effective, without taking any damage or using any of your abilities.

Example: Leona dives your team's back line at the 35 minute mark creating a hard engage. Should you (1) Try to peel for you ADC (2) Try to Kill Leona (3) Zone enemies

Instinct for me is to do 1 or 2, but the best decision is probably to zone the enemy damagers. If the enemy lacks effective gap closers your backline (once Leona uses all her CC) will probably be able to quickly kill Leona as long as another diver/assassin doesn't disrupt them. If the enemy damagers are kept away you simply win the fight and Leona dies.

Just by standing between allies and enemies while not actually doing anything, you improve your chances of winning this particular fight. The result will be a dead Leona, who can't escape, and a 4v5 later.

I stink at zoning. I sometimes take too much damage, get engaged on, or engage myself thinking I can win the fight.

Zoning is a higher level tactic that I am still figuring out. Typically, the decision is easier with fewer enemies or teammates (3v3 2v2 scenarios), but you need to make the choice quickly.

I don't see effective zoning by low gold or lower players. If people do it, it appears almost accidental. I do think Platinum tanks and supports do it a lot more often however, and it may be that when you play top you simply need to zone instead of engage or counter an engage with Zac.

DeathBurst6/24/2016, 2:38:10 PM1 votes

In Gold5 right now, maining Garen and Sion, and playing lots of other Tanks/Juggernauts in Normals.

I mostly confirm what Swiftstrike4 said. Except that Zoning is just another form of Peeling, it's not a completely different thing. And I disagree with Jaygo41. His analysis is great, but not for a Jungle secondary: you can't afford to learn so many different characters and their respective match-ups if Jungle is only your secondary. Just choose 2 or 3 champs maximum, and learn them in-and-out.

More generally, regarding the role you have to fulfill during a team fight, it depends on what is your main contribution. I know you're interested about Tanks, but it's still important to understand the role of everyone, you'll see later why. Basically:

  • if you have DPS, just hit whatever is in range without putting yourself in danger. Your top priority is surviving, because you cannot output your damage if you're dead. Juggernauts are a bit strange, but they are technically in this category: they have more DPS than utility but their notion of being "in danger" is very different compared to an ADC/Battle Mage. But even as a Juggernaut, just hit the frontline for free if you can, and wait for the right time to go for their backline. The difference with an ADC is that, since you are durable, it's not really a problem to die, as long as they wasted too much resources to kill you. You can die, but not for free.
  • if you have Burst, wait for a good opportunity. For real, do not waste your CDs on the frontline, stay back, wait for the right moment to jump in and eliminate their squishies. Your priority is eliminating at least one priority target, even better if two. Dying is not too much of an issue, as long as you killed someone more important than you in their own team.
  • if you have Utility/CC, your job is to make others' job easier. And that's why it's such a hard job, because you need to understand not only your role, but also the roles of others. If you CC those 2 champs, will your Assassin be able to all-in their ADC? Then go for it, and you just won the fight by yourself (even if everyone will give credit to the Assassin, but that's another issue ;p). But if you engage and nobody is able to follow, then you just gave a free 4v5 to the enemy team (and there, everyone will blame you, with reasons ;p). Both Tanks and squishy AP Utility Supports are in this category, the distinction being that as a Tank, soaking damage and CC is a valuable thing in and of itself, so it's not a problem to die as long as the enemy team wasted too much resources on you. Whereas the Utility Sups must really try hard to survive and get another round of spells out, since they will never soak a meaningful amount of damage, due to their squishyness. A bit like Juggernauts vs ADC.

So that's the basics, but I'll try to give you more insights to assess a situation on the fly as the Tank, now. There isn't a clear general theory, at least not that I'm aware of, so I'll just make a list of independent observations, and I hope you'll get the underlying principles.

  • Does your team have long range poke, a Jinx or a Caitlyn or a Xerath? Let them do the work, stay on the defensive, peel for them. Siege their towers, and let them choose between a bad fight you are prepared for or losing objectives. (And ward around you, so that you are actually prepared for the fight, don't let them ambush you.) But don't force the fight if you don't need to. For instance, why take the risk to dive if you can just destroy their tower without fighting at all? Kills don't win games, objectives do.
  • Did you just get hard engaged on? Your priority is disrupting their damage sources, NOT their initiator.
    • If a Zed just jumped on your ADC, sure, go for him and lock him down.
    • But if Leona jumped in the middle of your team, try to counter engage on their mid/ADC, because that's where their damage will come from, not from the Leona herself. And that's where "zoning" is just another form of peel. If the enemy ADC is scared of you and doesn't dare get in range to shoot at the squishy locked down by Leona, you already won. You don't need to actually CC him, you just need to stop him doing his damage. Don't go too deep on him or you'll die for nothing, just like their Leona, and then it will be a 4v4, no advantage for your team. Be happy if he just stops shooting at your carries, take the free kill on Leona, maybe disengage and press an objective.
  • Is your team ahead and has a good team-fight potential (i.e. wombo-combo or lots of AoE DPS, etc.): you don't need to stay as much on the defensive near your carries, look for a good engage opportunity. Flank them, try to ambush them from behind a wall. If your team is ahead and you provide a good engage, then the fight should be easy after that.
  • Are you playing from behind? Refuse fights as much as you can. Try to just wait while losing as little as possible. Do not engage, give up a Dragon if you need to, even a tower. But DO NOT force a fight you cannot win. Your goal is to reach the point where the gold difference doesn't matter anymore. Remember, if you are full stuff, you don't care if they have 10K gold more than you, because they can do nothing more than you with it. So peel, disengage, farm under tower, ward your own jungle. Anything to limit your losses, don't take risks.
  • Do not hesitate to ask if you think about another situation I didn't mention.

These different situations are not exclusive. For instance, a Jinx can be a good champ for both sieging with her long range and team-fight potential with her AoE DPS. You need to find what is best in your situation and what is the easiest thing to pull off. And always remember: only fight if you have an advantage. This is not a fight for honor where you should take a fair 5v5 and see how it turns out. You want to leave them with no options to win. The perfect engage is perfectly useless if you are 10 kills behind and nobody is able to follow you without dying.

Incognonymous6/24/2016, 6:37:38 PM1 votes

Their true mistake is not being boosted to plat.