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Assassins Why Are They So Unhealthy?

Scorpionex·2/24/2015, 6:02:24 PM·2 votes·1,022 views

  1. I want this to be a civil discussion on why assassins are unhealthy by nature and what can be done about it.

  2. I am open to other player's opinion on the matter.

  3. For context on where my opinions come from I was a Kha'zix main since his release (I played him in the jungle), I was also a Graves main since release, and have played other roles albeit sporadically.

Q: So my first question is what part of an assassin is the most unhealthy part? A: My answer to this question is that assassins have such a high amount of burst that it inherently creates little opportunity for counter play

Q: So why do we think the assassin pattern for Zed is healthy? A: His assassin pattern is healthy, because his burst is on a delay which gives room for counter play ie: zhonya's or QSS

Q: So how do we make all assassins healthy? A: We gate their burst to create counter play, simple right?

The only part of this answer that i do not like is that if we gate all assassins damage it starts to feel like the same thing. This brings me to my next point, can an assassin not have gated burst and still be healthy? My immediate answer would be no, but this is where the conversation comes in. Can an assassin have immediate burst while not being inherently unhealthy for the game?

10 Comments

doublelift fg2/24/2015, 6:08:29 PM1 votes

see talon: not ressourceless, can only kill one target, bad early game, limited mobility,

FHMarshy2/24/2015, 6:17:38 PM1 votes

I think Zed is a healthy assassin because his "assassination", if i may, is on a time base. Basically, he can't just click R and kill someone. He needs to follow up with his other skills or auto attacks or item actives, which allows time from peelers to peel him off. For example, when Zed dives and ADC, the support (leona, nami, janna, taric, annie, etc) would have time to exhaust/stun/knockback/knockup/bubble, etc) him so that he basically does no damage with the ult.

I agree/disagree with your first point. I think an assassins SHOULD be able to delete a single target instantly. That, after all, is what assassins do. To be able to sneak up, and kill the important target(s) is exactly what the name "assassin" is for. However, I think it is unhealthy for the assassins to be able to retreat to safety easily. Talon, a healthy(imo) assassin, would be basically dead after he used all his cool downs on instantly bursting a target down. He has no escape except summoners. I think it's justified that he can burst the squishies down in a matter of seconds, but since he can't escape after, I would name him a healthy assassin.

Noel Vermillion2/24/2015, 6:37:56 PM1 votes

Yea, but at the same time Zed is slower at killing and more obvious when he is doing so. Plus as mentioned before you can qss the ult.

Mandang02/24/2015, 6:39:35 PM1 votes

I don't think an assassin popping a character before they have time to react is fundamentally problematic, in fact I think that's what should identify them.

However, that should be near their best-case scenario (escaping after). Even if the assassin doesn't escape, and dies immediately after killing the enemy team's non-assassin carry, the assassin still wins because he was able to use his damage, while his opponent was not. What looks like a 1-for-1 plays like a 5v4. For this reason, assassins don't need resets/defensive steroids/sustained damage, and Riot giving their assassins these is what makes them so unhealthy.

Removing these bonuses would only fix assassins if Riot also let them instakill opponent squishies, which is something they tend to avoid because it feels bad for the other player (also puts the lion's share of the skill burden on the target rather than the assassin). Still, I can't really see assassins being healthy while they retain sustained damage or resets, as they'll continue to make sustained damage mages irrelevant. AOE seems like the only place where current assassins are often weak, but AOE is weaker these days with all of the mobility flying around.

Wînter Fox2/24/2015, 7:15:04 PM1 votes

Can an assassin have immediate burst while not being inherently unhealthy for the game?

It depends on what you mean by immediate. There are options to have both quick burst and counterplay to it. Rengar is a perfect example - you see the exclamation mark above your head, you better get to your teammates/a turret/pop a shield because Rengar is coming for that booty. This presents options for Rengar - he decides attack his best target- and options for his enemy - protect the carries within the next 2 seconds.

But if you mean immediate as in there's no warning like Rengar or delay like Zed? Then my answer would be no.

Scorpionex2/25/2015, 6:04:11 AM1 votes

Ok from this discussion my reasoning stands to be, that an assassin can have a massive amount of burst as long as its mostly only on one target?

To clarify I mean if an assassin was say less mobile like maybe only had one way to get in and it was not the most reliable way to get in could their damage be almost instant?Think Talon but without the invisibility to make his escape?

Also lets think about the whole reset problem with champs like Katarina and Kha'zix?

Q: Do these champions have to much power in their resets? A: Probably

Assuming that it is:

Q: How would you change said resets to gate their power? A: I believe Kha'zix is actually a little bit easier then Katarina. Just give his jump a mana gating ie: double the amount of mana needed to use it on the reset

Now Katarina I can't really think of a way of doing this except maybe not give her abilities complete resets? Except for maybe her w?

What do you guys think?