How to fix laners taking jungle items

Jungle Lux God·7/10/2015, 3:40:10 AM·71 votes·5,271 views

Ideally, the jungle items would be strong tools for junglers to use so that they could keep up with the pace of the game that, ideally, laners would not have access to, and therefore would not be able to abuse. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case.

We've seen it with the top lane Smite meta with item 3717 . We've also seen it with item 3716 Ezreal popping up in the mid lane. In both cases **these jungle items got nerfed **(item 3717 already got nerfed, and item 3716 is getting harsh nerfs on the PBE).

And we are going to see it with the new item 3707 enchantment on the PBE, where:

-Armor penetration replaced with a true damage DoT on dealing physical damage -build path chance to item 1036 item 1037

Considering Spirit of the Elder Lizard was largely the only jungle item that was widely abused by laners in seasons 3 and 4, laners are willing enough to run Smite to access the jungle items this season, and the new Warrior enchant doesn't offer anything that inherently favors the junglers that build it like Cinderhulk and Runeglaive do, this item is definitely going to be abused on laners.

This is a major problem that needs to be fixed so that junglers can have their big item powerspike off their jungle item without having to worry about laners taking these items for the same kinds of powerspikes themselves.

How do we fix this problem?

My suggestion is to **add a stacking "buff" **(it's more like a debuff) onto Machete and the jungle items. It starts at 10 stacks when you buy a jungle item (Machete or it's upgrades) and gets reduced by killing large monsters.

-Kill a large monster with item 1039 , and** it reduces the stacks by 2**. -Kill a large monster with item 3706 item 3715 item 3713 item 3711 , and it only reduces the stacks by 1. -You cannot buy a jungle enchantment until the stacks are reduced to 0.

What does this do?

For junglers, this literally does nothing. On your first clear, you are going to kill at least 3 large monsters on your first clear. If you kill the minimum of 3 large monsters before backing for your jungle item, you still need only 4 camps after that to get your item. Clear more camps, and you can easily remove the buff before backing for your jungle item.

Even if you only clear 3 large monsters before your first back, the only ways you can possibly not get your jungle item when you back later is if your either get counterjungled hard enough that you cannot take any camps at all (which is a sign of good counterjungling from the opponent, and should be supported, but isn't possible to do to the degree that would prevent a jungler from getting their jungle enchant for this reason) or you decide to chain-gank the lanes without taking camps after you get your jungle item (which is a strategy that isn't currently supported and shouldn't be supported).

Laners, however, have a much harder time getting the jungle items now. They can't afford to get Hunter's Machete early because their lane opponent will abuse the fact that they don't have real combat stats, nor do they have a jungle to clear early on because the jungler is clearing it. If they buy their jungle item later on, they still need to take 10 camps in order to get their jungle enchant, and that still isn't likely because the jungler is still clearing. At best, it renders laners physically unable to use jungle items. At worst, laners will still be able to buy the jungle items, but they need to wait too long in order to be able to use them.

In other words, the jungle items can be strong on junglers without being abused by laners, which is exactly how the items need to be tuned. Junglers can't afford to have bad jungle enchants because laners can take them and use them better by buying Smite and getting the item earlier with their better gold income. Junglers need those power spikes so that they can scale well into the mid-game (or late-game for Cinderhulk) despite their reduced gold income, and cost-efficient items are how junglers need to do that.

52 Comments

ZenBudS7/10/2015, 3:47:57 AM28 votes

Wow I am impressed. Very thorough and like you said, it does not hinder the jungler at all. Riot obviously should not like seeing laners taking smite and grabbing jungle items and this would allow them to not have to nerf the jungle items so much as well. upvoted

Ranger Azereth7/10/2015, 3:58:36 AM23 votes

I agree that this is a prospect I haven't really heard bandy-d about before and I approve of it. I'm not against laners taking smite as it does take a summoner spell slot, and seeing them pickup a jungle item later in the game if it benefits them isn't awful. Just preventing it early is the biggest benefit. I approve.

Pæan7/10/2015, 7:46:18 AM3 votes

With the old "spirit of the elder lizard" passive thing coming back I might start getting the jungle enchant as Shaco . Always felt like warrior enchant was so lackluster that i would stop at skirmishers sabre then rush my damage items.

Anywayyyy, I agree fully with your post, the usage of jungle items including item 3715 is nothing short of abuse. It is something that never should have happened. Junglers need a decently strong range of items otherwise they will fall behind even more than theyalready do now.

OperationDEEZ17/10/2015, 8:42:05 AM2 votes

What's so bad about laners taking "Jungle items" anyway?

Fried Noob7/10/2015, 4:38:36 AM2 votes

My only concern is that this could lead to junglers becoming more straved, since if the items are still good, you could wind up with a situation where top and bottom are taking golems and gromp every time they spawn, and mid taking birds and potentially wolves (if they are fast enough) whenever they spawn because the enchanments on the jungle items are still worthwhile.

MarhsallLee677/10/2015, 8:39:19 PM2 votes

inb4 rito: "We don't want to enforce the meta."

steampig7/10/2015, 8:46:10 PM2 votes

It's a good idea. I like it. Right now the only way to combat it is for the opposing laner to punish the smite laner for taking smite, and that only works for so long. Consider that they have only one useful summoner spell at first. Also, of course, if they take machete as a first item it makes punishing them even easier. Seen it happen, kinda funny.

junglerboy167/11/2015, 1:00:04 AM1 votes

This is a fantastic idea, and if needed, it could be tuned even more (like 15 stacks but machete gives 3 per kill, or something similar) if the need should arise. This would fix a plethora of problems with jungle items as a whole and would really open up the possibility of making them actually strong in the early game without laners being able to abuse them.

Remlap12237/11/2015, 1:22:37 AM1 votes

Nope, that makes too much sense, Riot will never allow it.

Better make Sated Devourer passively apply on hit effects 3 times.

KristoferYeeYT7/11/2015, 1:58:40 AM1 votes

What about disabling jungle items if you dont purchase machette as your first item? That way laners can still have their enemy jungle control with baron/dragon but cant abuse the jungle items.

Jungle Lux God7/11/2015, 2:39:34 AM1 votes

Apparently, Warrior had its changes reverted on the PBE.

Were the changes reverted because laners were abusing them on PBE games?

Maybe they were, but with a change like mine to remove the lane abuse cases for the jungle items, we might not need to worry about laners abusing the jungle items so our jungle enchants can do cool things in the jungle without having to worry about laners taking them and making jungle items get nerfed for us not to have cool things.

Hinagiku337/11/2015, 3:02:05 AM1 votes

This doesn't address the core issue:

Slot efficiency

No matter what, every player only gets 6 items and their trinket. If one class of item (i.e. jungle or support items) offers noticeably more than a similar normal item and is likely pretty cost-effective gold-wise then at some elo or another it will become the optimal strategy to use it elsewhere.

The problem with Cinderhulk was that top lane tanks were feeling just as bad as the jungle tanks but Riot only offered help to jungle tanks and completely shafted top lane tanks. Everyone knew that Cinderhulk was an awesome item that any tank would kill for. With higher incomes, top lane tanks could even use Cinderhulk better than junglers because they could get more health items to scale it harder. Then people realized that Chilling Smite and Challenging Smite were actually plenty viable since they can target champions and running Smite top lane became viable, possibly even optimal.

The real issue was that Cinderhulk was just way more useful than any other item a top lane tank could get. It was like having Sunfire Cape and Warmogs on the same item slot. Elder Lizard was the same since it was just plain better than equivalent items for the champs that could use it. Same with Ancient Golem.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way

Why do junglers need to have items that are clearly more powerful and cost-efficient than similar items laners can get?

"Because they don't get as much gold, duh."

So...wouldn't the better solution be to just increase junglers' incomes and let them buy the same items as everyone else?

The Conservation passive and the old jungle items was pretty awesome, and jungling gave enough gold to have a roughly comparable build if you played well. We can just focus the jungle items on improving Smite and increasing gold flow for investing in it. Nobody is really abusing the support items (anymore) because they are designed to only really be good if you are in a duo lane and not taking much farm. They help with support-y things so laners prefer Doran's items and Flask to start.

Machete can do what it does now. Tier 2 upgrades Smite to help with early-mid jungling or ganking and slightly increases gold per camp. Tier 3 can upgrade Smite again to help with late game and increase the gold income a bit more. If an item is better an basic, important stuff then it will ALWAYS be more valuable on a laner since they can get more items to synergize with it - if an item only really helps with jungling then only junglers will even want it in the first place.

warpenguin5557/11/2015, 4:15:14 AM1 votes

i hope riot comments on this in some way

Lynxonyx7/11/2015, 4:18:07 AM1 votes

I'd still take item 3709 in the Top lane, because I like to steal the enemy Gromp/Krugs and grab the skuttle too if my JG isn't snagging it. Good idea, but it will change nothing, except midlane use of it.

The Quinndred7/11/2015, 6:46:33 AM1 votes

The thing I like about this idea is that it will come across good with rioters. In the patch notes overview, the rioters agreed, they don't mind smite on laners, as long as it encourages going into the jungle at some point. I think this idea is quite smart and a nice touch. Just to clarify, you get the stacks when you buy a jungle item like a stalkers blade or machete.

BatteryDead7/11/2015, 8:20:33 PM1 votes

i like this! I want this to be a thing, I hate laners taking my jungle items and abusing them.

Seriphym7/10/2015, 4:12:58 AM1 votes

I am a midlaner and I liked the idea of playing around with those items however not in the way you mentioned most laners using them. My first smite usually initiates the jungler's first camp and I leave after getting it down to where they can manage it. This gives the jungler the buff and allows them to use their first smite on whatever they chooses. I usually wait until 2-3 towers are down and then split the jungle with our jungler so that we both keeps buffs.

My interest as taking smite and a certain (smite required) item has more to do with experimentation than anything but I have to say having an extra smite in the team make baron and dragon much quicker and allows for more steals. (Its not game changing but it makes the game a bit more interesting and enjoyable to mix it up a bit.

I wholeheartedly approve of your post and hope they take your suggestion to heart.

Rabid Husky7/10/2015, 9:13:31 AM1 votes

like your thinking but here is my own take now bare with me ready?

HALF LANE GOLD i know scary concept but make it so if you have smite and machete you still get bonus gold from monsters and half exp from minions that way laneing with smite isnt encouraged on laners and we can cut off alotta this bs laners with jungle items

slipstreem7/10/2015, 7:59:15 PM1 votes

I can get behind that.. Or just make it so that the effect of the item doesn't go off on minions.. so ez no longer does AOE damage to minion waves unless he uses his ult. But it would still proc on champions and monsters.

The brilliance of this idea lies in the fact that the laner will NEVER start machete so I like your idea better than my own.

DorkunedAuras7/10/2015, 8:44:17 PM1 votes

But what about when I'm playing Rammus. I take Krugs-Red-raptors, then gank mid, then top, and never stop ganking. It's fully possible I might not have those stacks cleared before I get my cinderhulk if I end up getting 3 kills early. On the super heavy ganking junglers, that's a massive hit. Gotta think through everything man.

Squidblimp7/10/2015, 9:45:33 PM1 votes

This is a great concept! By the time the jungler has enough stacks, they will have enough gold to buy the enchanted items! Yet, the laners will have a hard time getting those stacks naturally, delaying the powerspike caused by buying such a cheap jungle item for laning. Genius! Upvote this for Riot!

GundayMonday7/10/2015, 9:56:14 PM1 votes

This is really smart.