Ranking vs elo (does it make sense)

Dorans Shuriken·5/8/2017, 6:59:54 PM·9 votes·2,079 views

Why is it that you can be in silver but playing against plat players in ranked? I get that you're matched based on mmr, but does that really make sense? I mean, I've had to climb from silver 4 to silver 2 while playing against much higher ranked players. In essence, you aren't really playing in silver, but rather in gold. It's not an issue, I just wonder how that makes sense. Realistically, to climb out of silver shouldn't I be playing against silver players? I understand that this would make smurfing more of an issue, and they do give you more lp per win and less per loss to balance it out, but could the MMR system be replaced or made better in some way? Would love to hear opinions on this from high elo players/rioters.

39 Comments

Aeko5/8/2017, 8:22:23 PM4 votes

It seems to me at least that you're giving too much weight to a player's rank when their MMR is much more valuable. The differences between the two can be used to tell a lot about how well a player performs.

Aside from that, it makes perfect sense that a player on a win streak should have a higher MMR than his rank due to promotions and all that. If you take the limit of this scenario, a smurf player can be promoted past a division, i.e. skipping, if his MMR is very far off from his rank. If you play well you will he matched with better players. This also aplies in cases where you might play agaist a higher ranked player whose mmr is bad.

In the higher players eyes his mmr is so bad he might be matched with lower ranked players with a slightly higher mmr than the average for that rank.

Walmart Porn5/8/2017, 9:05:02 PM3 votes

Well i kinda have this problem, it seems a bit unfair that in silver 2 i play aginst gold 1's. But i usually just assume theyre duo'd with a s5 to try to get easy wins or something. A few ranks within your own like say silver 2- gold 4 would be accecptable, but 1 is just kinda out there. IMO solo que should be ONLY solo sense you can solo, or duo in flex anyway. That way theres much less chance of getting matched with someone way outside your own just because they duo with someone in the lowest possible ranking they can

TEA Nietzsche 5/8/2017, 9:42:02 PM2 votes

I think MMR should be visible. RIP elo system :(

QuickenedBlade5/9/2017, 12:56:04 AM2 votes

plats are trash

Raiyza5/8/2017, 9:36:20 PM2 votes

Honestly, I could not care less about bonus LP for winning against a higher MMR. I want to play against only s1s. I only want to play against people at my own skill level. That way its may the best man win, and not whoever has the higher MMR player.

Mysticman895/9/2017, 3:46:37 PM1 votes

People tend to confuse their 'skill level' with rank, often in both directions.

When you're at 'your skill level', it means you're at an MMR where you win 50% of the time on average. So if a silver ranked player is at an MMR where they're playing with plats, then they either had a lucky streak and they'll quickly fall down, or thats their actual skill and they'll win 50% (in which case they'll still quickly climb due to lp gains), or they belong even higher and their MMR will continue to rise and their rank will soon follow. Skipping ranks is also a thing that makes sense when players are demonstrating they can consistently beat higher ranked players, but a system where players are forced to only play people at their rank wouldn't be able to show they deserve to entirely skip divisions.

If someone was winning enough to be playing with/against plats while ranked silver, it wouldn't really be fair to legitimate silver players to have the plat skill player stomp them a half dozen times in a row before they could be promoted, with that repeating for every division up to their 'true' rank. Alternatively, if they kept mmr in the background but still forced same rank match ups, match times would go way up for relatively high mmr for their rank players, and whats more they'd end up playing against each other, ending up with a 50% win rate in silver despite their plat skill level.

People should want competitive games too, and while it might be fun for a high skill player to stomp on lower skilled players at first, it'd become a bit of a chore to climb to your true elo after awhile, so the adversity of actually playing against (and with) people your level should be desirable. Ranks are pretty much entirely cosmetic, and even the end of season rewards are more cosmetic things, so people should be playing since they enjoy playing, and it's more enjoyable for everyone if things are relatively fair.

Also, theres plenty of people (generally smurfs) who will dodge a lot to intentionally keep low ranks due to the LP penalties. In an MMR based system this doesn't actually cause any problems, but in a rank based system it could rapidly lead to some very lopsided matches as the high elo player on their bronze ranked account destroys the legit bronze, and does so over and over and over without ever being promoted.

On the other side of things, if a silver rank player is getting consistently matched with bronze, that implies they're actually bronze skill level, not "wtf matchmaking is unfair I keep getting matched with people worse than me" as people sometimes say, much as the silver being consistently matched with golds isn't being matched with people better than them, they're being matched with people theoretically their skill level. If they maintain a 50% win rate, then their rank will catch up over enough games, and if they don't play enough games for their rank to catch up, then they're not really that invested in the game in the first place so their rank shouldn't matter anyway.

edit: Basically the system works well, but people tend to be confused about their own skill levels, so get frustrated. People want to 'play with people their skill level' but they also don't want to lose, so you end up with a situation where people are playing at their skill level, but in the 50% of the games they lose they justify their loss as being 'stuck' against higher ranked players, not as a result of playing against their level players. Meanwhile in the games they win, they want to believe they won them because they outplayed people of comparable skill to them, and not because they're stomping on people much lower rank, so it's nigh impossible for a system to exist that appeases everyone's psychology while being balanced.

dunder kill5/8/2017, 8:39:02 PM1 votes

Sure, if you want to give up your extra LP for wins. If you're playing against golds in silver then you're gaining way more LP than losing for a single game. If you want to only play against Silvers, then you would also have to lose the bonus LP. You dont get to only keep the tools that help people climb and lose the ones that keep people grounded. That completely destroys the ranked ladder.

ModKnightsKemplar5/9/2017, 4:40:23 AM1 votes

It works because it adjusts the amount of lp you get based on your MMR. If you're playing against people that good, you should lose relatively little lp on a loss, but gain quite a bit when you win. That way, even if you are breaking even on your W/L record, you are still climbing because the system knows you belong in a higher tier. Make sense?

Cocho5/8/2017, 7:09:14 PM1 votes

Since you got higher MMR, you get higher lp earns. You could get a 50% winrate and climb fast when you earn 25 and lose 10. Eventually your MMR and rank will even out