System logic of team balancing

Neosphoros·Jan 10, 2019·1 votes·1,787 views

Have you ever seen a game of equal skilled teams... for example football or basketball? How those games are characterized?

If one team standing equal enemy team - those games will be characterized of similar game score and similar player skill level.

So what can we say about LOL-system-maded games? By looking on games result - sometimes that ending with score with difference more than 20 points... we are able to say that those games are not balanced. Same thing is if it is about players when in same lane one player have 10 kills and his opponent have died 10 times.

In this case - can we say about any balancing system at all?

So... "to pulling one leg" is saying that there is some MMR system.

16 Comments

Deep Terror NamiJan 10, 20192 votes

Those games don't have a snowball effect where a lead results in increasingly more goals. This only means that slight advantages, which in a game absent of snowballing would more likely result in a win, shows a greater gap when winning; it does not necessarily point to imbalance.

NeosphorosJan 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EdPVcVJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-10T17:21:19.231+0000)

Those games don't have a snowball effect where a lead results in increasingly more goals. This only means that slight advantages, which in a game absent of snowballing would more likely result in a win, shows a greater gap when winning; it does not necessarily point to imbalance.

But in equal teams there should be no "snowball effect" at all if on any action oposite team could react with counter-action (by knowing - how).

Snowball effect is most visible from high score... before that enemy score is just a "snowflake" that equal skilled oposite player could cover with his own "Snowflake" by reacting (alone or with jungler) on any action which will lead to draw (in single lane).

Deep Terror NamiJan 10, 20192 votes

The game can't possibly work in an environment where teams always react with an equal and opposite counterplay. Not that such a move is always impossible, but this isn't chess; you will win or lose a fight or make better or worse decisions or just be unlucky, and it will result in a lead or a deficit that does not have a clear (or sometimes possible) reaction to bring the two players/teams to an even state. The game just isn't that simple, and that isn't a bad thing.

If this sort of balance is what you're looking for in a game, you can only find it elsewhere no matter what Riot does (short of making an entirely different kind of game).

NeosphorosJan 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EdPVcVJ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-10T17:33:36.971+0000)

The game can't possibly work in an environment where teams always react with an equal and opposite counterplay. Not that such a move is always impossible, but this isn't chess; you will win or lose a fight or make better or worse decisions or just be unlucky, and it will result in a lead or a deficit that does not have a clear (or sometimes possible) reaction to bring the two players/teams to an even state. The game just isn't that simple, and that isn't a bad thing.

If this sort of balance is what you're looking for in a game, you can only find it elsewhere no matter what Riot does (short of making an entirely different kind of game).

It is not about the team for randomly selected players. It is about selected players itself. If they are good (equal) they will try to react in for the action with defence or offense... if opponent will be weak - he will be making mistakes increasing score difference... and that is why in LOL - we have single lane score like 1:10...

NeosphorosJan 10, 20191 votes

In mathematical "game theory" result of equally good opponents in a game will be always a draw... how far from it are LOL games?

...far away

Becouse of that it is possible to say that system is fully responsible for result and we have nothing to do with the final score becouse system can not (for purpose or becouse impossiblility) create fair games which will laead to suggestion that if we are losing - we are losing becouse of system.

Deep Terror NamiJan 10, 20191 votes

I don't recommend using the claim of a mathematical theory and not providing any of the information and data of said theory. Compare different games and try to understand why the scores in (supposedly) equal matches are close or far. Also try to understand that the scores don't matter one bit in League; it's whether they resulted in a win or loss. Matchmaking in League, for example, does not guarantee you a win if your team is objectively better overall; however, it does mean that you will likely win more often, and that is the statistic you should be looking at, not arbitrary game scores that vary wildly.

NeosphorosJan 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EdPVcVJ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-10T17:49:04.756+0000)

I don't recommend using the claim of a mathematical theory and not providing any of the information and data of said theory.

"Not recommend" :)

Simplest example... Tic-tac-toe game... what will you do to achieve good result?

Compare different games and try to understand why the scores in (supposedly) equal matches are close or far. Also try to understand that the scores don't matter one bit in League; it's whether they resulted in a win or loss.

From my observation... most easiest, logical answer will be that against good player were selected weak player.

Matchmaking in League, for example, does not guarantee you a win if your team is objectively better overall; however, it does mean that you will likely win more often, and that is the statistic you should be looking at, not arbitrary game scores that vary wildly.

Score is not only just a number. It is also "one player less" to help in tf which is increasing/decreasing chances for win.

NeosphorosJan 11, 20191 votes

...is that mean that there is no logic and there is no balance in team creation at all?

NeosphorosJan 12, 20191 votes

The proof of this is that RIOT deals only with shit, and important matters that can fix the game ignores.

Most important for them is to add skins, icons, baners, etc and changes the balance of items back and forth instead of solving the problem with trolls, high pings and afk.

NeosphorosJan 12, 20191 votes

By observing the games, it is possible to get a conclusion that in every game there is an element of manipulation that may effect on the game result.

It looks like a situation where betwean a good player are selected weak allies. It may suggest that reason for that is to balance the odds, which does not mean that the system is selecting players based on a similar MMR (whatever that could be - I thought MMR is some kind of player skill valuation system but now game after game I have more doubts).

Another issue is that the level of our allies gameplay - it looks like it depends on our skills. It's look like our allies could be some kind of bots that dynamically adjust their skill level to ours.

The last time it is possible also to notice that MOStLY in our team we will be able to see 2 players/allies who will act opposite to the team target. For example, if the result of the game is KNOWN from the very beginning - negative (becouse we may know that we are losing too much already), then these two allies will always vote negatively ignoring the / ff or / remake command (or sometimes to push us forward). It's look a like that some RIOT employees or bots, are making their tasks to fulfill certain assumptions, eg the time of the game specified for them - becouse too short game could means that - if team choosing /ff command just after 15min - player selecting system - does not working good - becouse HOW GOOD IT COULD BE IN CASE OF EQUAL TEAMS? (equal teams surrending just after 15 min? - it does it mean "good balance" I guess... right?)

The same pseudo-allies very skillfully / discreetly also trolling their team. Sometimes they run away from TFs, sometimes they stand still in bush. All this involves getting too much advantage in the team. It looks as if their task was sometimes to balance the result of the game or sometimes lead to failure if the allied team wins too much.

Becouse of that it is impossible to say that matches are created on fair-play basis but only to manipulate the final result - appropriate for the RIOT assumptions.

NeosphorosJan 12, 20191 votes

Tool of result manipulation seams to be also a possibility to disconnecting us from game. RIOT saying that it is becouse - we/our connection fault but if so... why RIOT not even trying ro eliminate this problem by some kind of internet connection testing system that will tell us if we can play specfic games or not - due to our internet quality connection?

One simply test could absolutely remove AFK/high ping problem from LOL... but if RIOT will provide that system - it will eliminate possibility to manipulate a score and decrease a number of possible ways to controll the game which could be a much more visible for us.

NeosphorosJan 12, 20191 votes

Just look at this match:

https://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/2109293119/207300606?tab=overview

...and now... try to find a sign of balance betwean me and my team. This is examples of heroes im playing on sup position and their stats:

You can see good stats a far above average with good score role evaluation with winratio = 51% and mostly player evaluation with A or S score

So now look at my team:

Jungle -if you will see - player even have played this champ for the first time... in ranked game !!!!... so it is even impossible to assess his playing skill with this champ but as a jungler he have "shitty" 38% of winratio... by the way - in game after few minutes he went AFK

https://i.ibb.co/209HZqk/Zrzut-ekranu-2019-01-12-14-33-04.png

MidLane - 43% winratio as a mid, position evaluation = B and champion evaluation = B

https://i.ibb.co/zXjMMy9/Zrzut-ekranu-2019-01-12-14-33-36.png, https://i.ibb.co/5rdqsFn/Zrzut-ekranu-2019-01-12-14-33-45.png

TopLane - 43% winratio as a top, position evaluation = -B and champion evaluation = -A

https://i.ibb.co/hCWhJSC/Zrzut-ekranu-2019-01-12-14-34-18.png, https://i.ibb.co/qMKpTr8/Zrzut-ekranu-2019-01-12-14-34-25.png

ADC - 49% winratio as a adc, position evaluation = +C and champion evaluation = +C

https://i.ibb.co/fvstjvM/Zrzut-ekranu-2019-01-12-14-34-51.png, https://i.ibb.co/jh72c9G/Zrzut-ekranu-2019-01-12-14-35-03.png

NeosphorosJan 12, 20191 votes

So... where is DA "F" BALANCE?

NeosphorosJan 12, 20191 votes

For this moment it look like this:

"As good you are - as bad players will be selected to your team"