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Jungle needs oppertunity cost to ganking again.

WashyMoney·1/8/2019, 9:01:33 PM·29 votes·12,151 views

No, I don't want jungle to be nerfed. I'd say junglers were stronger (individually) in season 6 - but have more early game impact in season 8. Pretty much, jungle has become a role where neither the jungler nor the laners can solo-carry anymore, and they've become completely intertwined. Jungle relies completely on laners (due to scuttle & nerfs to XP later), and laners rely heavily on jungler (cause they have the ability to chain gank/camp lanes easily).

Junglers need an oppertunity cost to ganking again.... I think the biggest offender is the camp respawn timers. I won't talk about scuttle here because that's another can of worms.

Now, I'm not saying season 6 jungle was perfect, but it's the season I remember most clearly right now. Yes, powerfarming might've been too strong, so it could have been nerfed. But we didn't need this shit.

Now jungler's have no incentive to not just sit in a lane or perform gank after gank. I remember in season 6, everything mattered. You had to actively think about your pathing to maximize camps before you performed a gank - because if you didn't, you would fall pretty far behind. Even going for a gank usually resulted in you getting behind on your clear (even a successful gank resulted in the enemy jungler getting 1-2 camps ahead). But this was FINE. You get to snowball yourself AND your laner - shouldn't you lose something for it?

So before: you get camped top lane, but it's okay because your Shyvana gets to powerfarm and maybe gets a level or two lead. Their jungle has camps just sitting there waiting to be farmed, so he's literally losing gold and XP for being in your lane.

Now: You get camped top. Realize that they can spend 1min top lane because they do not have a camp to farm so they literally lose nothing for ruining your laning phase. Get pissed at your jungler because if they don't actively make a play happen (either a countergank or gank other side of the map) you're pretty much losing the game. Oh, and the enemy jungle stays the same level after camping your lane for 3 minutes straight.

And we wonder why push & roam became the meta? Because actually trying to chip enemy tower/deny cs under tower meant you will get ganked within 10 seconds. And even if you evade gank #1, if you push up again you'll just ganked again, over and over.

Like, just for example, how is it healthy that the best jungler in the game can't even clear half the camps and doesn't even build tiamat to try...Camille

Here's a reddit thread that goes more in depth: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/aduxy1/the_state_of_the_jungle_and_why_junglers_and/

I was just thinking about this since I saw Locodoco talk about how jungle was dumbed down in terms of pathing and ganking.

23 Comments

Tormentula1/8/2019, 9:53:40 PM7 votes

Part of the problem was the repeated XP nerfs to the jungle.

Junglers haven't really changed from the time they were never talked about to the time they were complained about by top laners, except they adapted to the whole snowball issue league currently has. Junglers camping bot lane was to be expected when bot lane was just that fucking strong in season 7 with ardent censor, if one bot lane got a lead and auto-wins, duh jg will sacrifice everything to get them ahead. JG pressure never ceased to exist, but the impact that pressure has, has changed, like if a snowballing top laner can carry with even the tiniest lead, junglers are going to seem a lot more bullshit for enabling that.

Right now we're in a position where camp variety is so scarce because if you lose one of your buffs or crab, you're put in such an ackward position as you don't have a lot of options to get that XP back besides gank for minion XP or let the enemy jungle pretty much reign the entire game with you as an afterthought. 4 camps was a huge mistake.. I could see making camps harder to actually fight, like actually making junglers take as much risk doing their buffs as soloing rift herald at early levels, but making us have to do 3 camps with scuttle counting as one when we can't contest it from behind is just a massive issue... and part of why we see strength in champions like camille jungle, xin, etc.. they don't need their full kit to achieve their goals, they can level 2 and gain lane priorities, and since XP is fucked anyway they can just contineously do it or use their lane priorities for invade XP denial on the other jungler.

Every nerf to the jungle trying to cut them back it just an indirect buff to the cheese junglers everybody complains about while ruining diversity in the jungle as a whole.

Dukues1/8/2019, 9:55:30 PM5 votes

Season 6 jungle was so fun. People hated season 6 because dynamic queue (fair enough) but as a jungle main it was fun as hell. And honestly w/e to those who say "yea well it was op". Yea true.... but I played so many roles that season and had fun playing all of them. I guess I just realize back then even with jungle being op the game was still fun. Compared to now where playing the game in general just feels fucking terrible.

O yea... also.. after maining jungle for 3 seasons im done. Can't fucking stand that bs anymore. Fuck the scuttle crabs... just honestly fuck Riot. Bunch of idiots working there now or always. They clearly said fuck game balance forever ago. Surprised balance team still get paid honestly like... lmfao... you could hire people off the street and they wouldn't make the game any less fun. Or if they did it would be so damn immaterial who the hell cares.

I agree honestly it probably make jungle op at high elo but... I really don't care anymore. This focus on LCS and only top like 1% of players literally ruined the game and is going to be the death of League. I really don't care if streamers are happy anymore because honestly..... from what I've seen most are miserable now anyways. I guess that was incorrect riots complete focus on arranged 5v5 (aka LCS) has ruined the game making solo/duo queue a night mare to play regardless if you high or low elo.

When my boy imaqtpie doesn't end season in challenger you know the game is fucked lol. I don't know what other evidence is needed honestly. Play like 2 games of League and its very fucking obvious damage is way too high. Yet..... no changes for over a year.

honestly..

from the bottom of my heart.... f this game.

Meredith Stout1/8/2019, 9:10:26 PM4 votes

Biggest problem is that they added money prize on towers which is really high if you think about it. 80 gold to 2 champions and if gank is successful you'll take at least 2 tiers off tower. Giving every champion 160g which is ~2.5 minion waves + gold from killing champion...

But i'd like also to add...

Hashinshin talking about junglers? No, thanks, i'd rather drink bleach lol.

RainbowIcee1/9/2019, 1:20:02 AM3 votes

I've been filling my last couple of matches. I almost always get filled jungle, jg is the least desirable spot right now in the game atm i'm guessing. You're just asking to make it worse. It's a bit tedious, some times you can't gank because you're whole team over extends, there's a limited pool of jg's because a strong jg can counter jg you so you need something to fight back and then there's the pressure. It's your fault if you aren't fed basically. JG used to be fun when we had the JG buffs which broaden the jg pool. Now it's like EHH, you need some high mobility champ or heavy CC most of all good clears. Jg needs to me actually made more interesting than just beating minion rotation and running around in it's core or at the very least open it up for more champs.

Draught of Souls1/9/2019, 11:31:13 AM1 votes

I don't really think Rioters look at forums and read the content of it contrary to how they say they have in the past, but I really think you are correct with camp timers. But the stupid part of the jungle that isn't noticeable but has a huge effect on gameplay & gank risk is plants.

You may ask, "Why do plants have anything to do with jungling and gank risk?!" Well, simply put, these features were put into the game to make matches go by faster, by increasing mobility going to and from enemies in the lane and to create gameplay. This has a direct effect on ganking because the risk is taken away if you KNOW that you can waltz into mid lane with a healing plant and a blast cone on top side jungle, the risk is taken away, due to the fact that you can just heal up if you get hurt. And if that isn't enough, behold the might of what is known as a blast cone. You auto these to get an easy escape from laners/enemy jg.

This is probably why Graves is considered top-tier jg. he has so much gank potential and good jungle clear times/rotations. Same with Camille and Gragas .

BestPudgeNA1/9/2019, 4:27:15 PM1 votes

The "problem" with JG is the same as it's been since i started playing the game.

Everyone knows they're the best MID, ADC, TOP in the game, so the only possible way then can lose lane/game is if JG is OP.

INB4 the downvotes

FSRER1/9/2019, 4:53:31 PM1 votes

Junglers right now can come into your lane, kill you and then stay until you are back in lane hitting tower while not staying back in xp or gold or anything at all. This has to be fixed

BestPudgeNA1/9/2019, 6:05:30 PM1 votes

OP the Reddit you linked said "Jungle is the second, sometimes first most powerful role in the game" and contained tweets from Moe, AblazedOlive and LoHpally all calling Jungle OP

Gilgayu1/9/2019, 1:57:45 AM1 votes

I do remember the time when many jungle champs (amumu and a few others) have to power farm to 6 in order to gank bot lane or camp certain lanes. Before it feels like there are always more camps, and even just by ganking three times, you will be a level behind your enemy jungler.

Right now a good early game jungler can full clear twice (with a back in between...) within 5/6 minutes, and then they have like two full minutes where only 1--2 camps spawn and they might as well gank the same lane mutliple times.

I can't recall the exact reason of camps taking much longer, and it doesn't make sense, since we had runes before that give us like 30 ad right away.

I believe many jungle mains also want the green (warding) jungle items back, it did make champions like lee sin overbearing, but being able to help your losing lanes ward is as important as ganking them.

Scuttle is also a bit too benefittial for how easy it is to kill it and how much time it saves for you to move around the map.

Dragons probably need some slight buff too, since laners don't even help you these days because they are too busy getting those turret plating gold...

AirKingNeo1/9/2019, 5:13:06 AM1 votes

side note: Remove the small krugs. They make the camp too fucking long.

FixHealsRemoveGW1/9/2019, 9:01:53 AM1 votes

On the other hand if camp respawn was faster and maybe less catch up XP you would have junglers that can clear fast and gank on top who just dominate the jungle, that's another issue people would then complain about.

No matter what you do, there are always downsides. You just have to decide what you really want, the lesser evil. If you always complain about the current state of the game you will never come to any conclusion.