How are Leblanc / Zed allowed to be perpetually dominant?

WatchdaWorldBurn·3/16/2015, 3:59:59 AM·24 votes·4,026 views

I've been thinking alot lately about this. I mean everyone already clearly understands how massively out of control champions like Fizz and Nidalee are (even though nothing is ever done about them); with champions like Kalista and Irelia coming in close behind. But for the LIFE of me, I really cant understand how the 2 champions, Leblanc and Zed are forever allowed to remain the undisputed rulers of Mid lane. Every time I play in a game against one of these champions, I end up getting so angry at how frustrating and unfun they are to play against, it makes me not even want to play League at all.

It's been almost 2 years now, if my memory serves me correctly, that Zed and Leblanc have been dominating Mid lane so completely. It's really old and boring at this point, not to mention extremely frustrating. Neither of these champions promote any type of stimulating or challenging counterplay in the mid lane. Neither of these champions have any type of real skill cap (read never have to hit a skill shot) in order to be so overwhelmingly successful in almost every game. Neither of these champions are in reality ever punishable for serious misplays or bad decisions. They are so ridiculously safe and their obscene mobility is on such short cd that there are very few if ANY openings in which to ever "outplay" them or punish them for bad play. Yet BOTH of them do more burst damage and have a greater ability to secure kills than pretty much any other mid lane pick in the game, while being so ridiculously mobile and safe at the same time. I really have to ask, how is this considered healthy and balanced? By what metric do you consider this combination of strengths with so few if any weaknesses healthy for the game?

I can't tell you the amount of times, I've watched a Leblanc that wasn't even big, very ahead, or overwhelmingly fed, W in, Q and Mimic Q (or some similar combo) and chunk an adc for 75+% of his hp, while only using 2 non skillshot targetted abilities, and never risking their own safety for more than 1 sec. I think most of the community has had experience with situations like this. Or how about the dreaded lvl 2 all in? Where an immediate Q > W + ignite and autos at lvl 2 kills just about any opponent or forces them to recall, and puts them behind in the lane from the get go. Or how bout how at rank 5 with 40% CDR, the cd on W is 6 sec, with the return function being within 4 sec. Meaning that twice every 6 sec this champion can change positions, jump walls, dodge damage and other wise be a frustrating pos. I know a large portion of the community agrees with me on the problem this champion is as far as affecting the enjoyability of the game. The only people who play this champion are people who A) Just want to abuse it for "freelo" (which it is) and B) enjoy playing this game in a fashion where their opponents have very little options to fight back. These type of people usually only play the other top cancerous offenders: Fizz, Nidalee, Riven, Zed etc. I have failed to find any interpretation of this champion where that amount of burst damage and frustrating mobility is healthy in any way for game balance. There should be a severe tradeoff in damage capability for having access to such ridiculous mobility, or vica versa.

Then we get to Zed, another champion that just utterly blows my mind on how it's allowed to remain the undisputed King of mid lane. Where to start with the problems this champion creates. Lets start with how every non tanky AP opponent is essentially forced to rush item 3191 and usually item 3157 if they want even the slightest prayer of surviving in the lane past lvl 6. This alone totally screws over the build/mid game for these champions by having their opponent dictate that they rush defensive items, while Zed can happily rush his item 3144 or other preferred damage items. Or lets talk about how his early game (pre lvl 6) auto attacks hurt as much as Riven's empowered autos or Tryndamere's autos; because apparently a "ad caster" champion needs to have super powerful autos along with having above average ranged poke (Red pot cheese start anyone?) The issue with the auto's segues into the next issue, where its apparently "healthy" for Zed to be able to delete any "squishy" target he wants by simply building/activating item 3142 and item 3153 when he all in's someone with his R and maybe an auto or 2. Yeah yeah, I've heard all the arguments about how high Zed's "skillcap" is and how difficult/necessary it is to hit his "skillshots" in order for him to secure a kill. But I'm here to tell you that's definitively NOT the case. I've recently spent quite a bit of time spectating high ranked Zed players, studying what happens when they assassinate targets throughout the game. So believe me when I tell you more often than not, this is how an all in "high skillcap" 1v1 Zed encounter goes.

The Zed starts off by identifying his target, very often he wastes his W to close the gap on player who is trying to maintain a proper distancing. The Zed will then activate his Youmuu's Ghostblade to further gain ground and in preparation for his R. He then R's his target which has in reality no way of escaping this type of gap close and movement speed. The victim kites backwards away from Zed's R shadow. As soon as Zed comes up from his R untargettable (so much counterplay in that) he immediately BotRK' his target making it essentially impossible now for the target to escape or kite without using flash (and even sometimes not then). There is in reality no running from a Zed with Youmuu's and BotRK active, unless you are a very specific champion with equally obscene mobility. So at this point the victim has death mark applied to them, the Zed usually manages to hit his target with his E sourced from himself (usually immediately after rising out of R and BotRK'ing his target), which even further slows his target. Now say hypothetically, Zed didn't waste W to gap close and was simply in range to R at the start. He would now use his W to attempt to gap close again on his target if necessary and position for the incoming Q bonus damage. The only ability now left to Zed is his Q, but having already wasted his W (or not) to gap close, and his R shadow being usually out of Q range by now due to a target futilely attempting to kite back, that leaves only his Q sourced from himself (or W). Honestly, it really doesn't matter whether he hits both Q's, one, or none. The target is usually dead regardless. Let's say hypothetically this encounter is taking place under his targets tower, from which Zed has been taking damage from the whole time. After an AMAZING display of skill his target dies, Zed simply R's back to his shadow (the range of which also blows my mind) and pats himself on the back for being a superbly skilled player....

Believe me when I tell you I've witnessed many occassions where a Zed (as with Leblanc) is not even very strong, fed, or in some cases is actually very behind, but still easily secures the kill on a non tanky champion, simply by R'ing, Youmuu's and BotRK, hitting E, and MAYBE......maybe one or 2 autos. It is entirely unnecessary for Zed to hit Q at all, or use his W or R shadows to generate an additional Q for bonus damage. There are NO skill shots in these scenarios, it's simply mash a few buttons that are undodgeable and auto once or twice and then R back to safety. The only way I've witnessed a victim of Zed survive a scenario like this is A) used flash immediately after R application (even then sometimes it's not enough) B) Zhonya's Hourglass (forcing itemization) C) get massive assistance from multiple teammates (sums, shields, peels) or D) be so MASSIVELY ahead of the Zed that you are able to simply absorb his damage and kill him in the process.

I know Riot has commented plenty lately on how "healthy" of an assassin Zed is, and how important it is for Zed to actually hit his "skillshots" and abilities in order to secure kills. But I'm here to tell you that is not the case at all. Will Zed do more damage if he manages to get 3 Q's to hit by appropriate positioning of R and W shadows during R application? Sure he will, he will do massively more damage. Is it necessary for him to use W or or R for extra Q damage or even hit a Q and E at all to kill a "squishy"? Nope not at all. Honestly the 2 active items, a few autos, and maybe ONE Q or E + ignite are MORE than sufficient to do lethal damage. I think this is ultimately what leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouths about Zed. Doesn't matter what you try to (or successfully manage to do) while being all in'd by Zed, you will still most likely die. Doesn't matter if you dodge all his Q's, doesn't matter if you successfully juke him the entire during of his R with your move blocks and/or flash. My honest analysis, a champion like this should be required to actually hit/make use of all his abilities to score such easy / low counterplay kills. The problem here is that Riot represents like this is actually the case. They represent that Zed is actually balanced around requiring him to connect with most of his abilities. I'm here to tell you after watching plenty of slow motion replays of Zed all-in's. This is not the case. I suspect alot of people already know this. The Zed players especially. I wouldn't have any problem with this champion if dodging his abilities or "outplaying" him meant you lived or won. I wouldn't have any problem with this champion if Youmuu's, BotRK, and E didn't make it almost impossible for most champions to "outplay" him. But this is not the case.

Unfortunately, I don't think champions like Zed or Leblanc will ever be appropriately balanced around their ridiculously mobility/safety. There should be major tradeoffs in damage or other areas (perma split pushing Zed anyone?) for having such power in the mobility area. I don't really see any. They are both primary mid picks in every game, for almost all of the past 2 years, which means the player base doesn't really see any weaknesses or tradeoffs either. The only time I can remember when they weren't insta lock ins for mid every game was when Yasuo was out of control (another champion with mobility problems), and Riven and Khazix were played mid almost every game. That was another fun time in League of legends (beginning of s4?).

And don't even start with the, "Well blah blah blah win rates blah blah blah statistics are all blah blah blah get good noob". Those type of ignorant comments have no affect on me.

53 Comments

YossarianSensei3/16/2015, 4:36:47 AM7 votes

They might be 'rulers of mid-lane' but there are way stronger team-comp centric picks.

aperson13/16/2015, 9:11:44 AM5 votes

I hate Zed so much. Dude has 1 skillshot he doesn't even need to hit to kill you. Darius Q is harder to use than Zed's E. And his autos are so ridiculously strong he only needs to tap you once or twice and you're dead. I'm actually turned away from the game when I see Reddit comments on any game with Zed - "OMG Bjergsen Zed God," "They should've known better than to give him Zed," "That assassination by Zed was so skillful."

As for LeBlanc, I don't really understand why Veigar had to get nerfed before her. They literally had the exact same bad gameplay pattern, except one was picked about 20x more often than the other. It just seems like favoritism to me.

Leti the Yeti3/16/2015, 6:51:27 AM4 votes

he is resourceless easy wave push easy escape and easy tower dive... so he can just force you to farm under turret all lane while trying to dive you and when some jgler comes to gank, he can just swaps places with the shadow placed by his nexus of course

I think gutting his wave clear is a step toward balancing him there's absolutely no way to out push him...

qetzel3/16/2015, 1:44:18 PM4 votes

This post completely neglects the rather large periods of time in which Leblanc and Zed were not dominant.

Verxint3/16/2015, 5:49:18 AM4 votes

Zed needs to have his % bonus AD passive on his W removed. That was only part of his kit because 2-3 years ago, AD caster itemization was horrible and he needed that to compensate. Now that AD caster itemization is not horrible, he really doesn't need to get a free 25% of his bonus AD as more bonus AD, Considering how hard he overkills most targets.

Angry Monster3/16/2015, 6:27:25 PM4 votes

I find this thread funny. Wasnt LB a troll pick 6 months ago when she lost her silence.

The reason LB is strong again is cause of the constant nerf cycle.

Fed by Snu Snu3/16/2015, 6:42:13 AM3 votes

Rush seeker's against Zed.

Proceed to die from him anyway, since his passive is magic damage and it will kick in as soon as 50% freaking health, which his skills can easily do even with seeker's. Then it gets amplified among everything else, then you pop.

10/10, would get counterplayed again.

LoRdJeSuS69694203/16/2015, 9:16:30 AM2 votes

If they are so strong why are their winrates so bad?

Junkο3/16/2015, 12:55:05 PM2 votes

Eh Zed can be countered, you can counterbuild him, play safe, safe CC for his ult. If nothing else you can at least counterpick him which most of them shut him down pretty hard. The only reason he is strong is because of mana regen nerfs, but judging from some recent changes on PBE Riot might fix that soon.

LB though, omfg, why is 0/5 LB allowed to burst me with QRW in under a second and instantly tp to safety? Like wow, #balanced. And Riot is planning to "nerf" her by removing 5% AP Ratio from ult. Aka at 1k AP she loses 20 damage. insert clip of guy laughing at 5 AD AP Ratio here

Akali is SO HOT3/16/2015, 12:58:46 PM2 votes

To be fair Zed was considered trash for a solid 2-3 weeks after his ult rework and Leblanc was thought to be the undisputed queen of trash for a solid month after she lost her silence. But yeah they are still terribly designed champions.

chide da jungler3/16/2015, 4:23:01 PM2 votes

there are no hard champions in this game at all. the difference between the perceived high ones and the 'easy' champions is very minimal.

jjookkeerr3/16/2015, 6:53:34 AM2 votes

maybe zed but leblanc is,t there is plent of ways to counter her

Divewing3/16/2015, 10:20:36 AM1 votes

LeBlanc and Zed are simply the few remaining mid lane champs that capitalise really well off of other people's mistakes since the others were nerfed. As to why they haven't been nerfed when things similar (eg Talon) have, is because you can dodge their stuff, no matter how you present your argument, it will be easier to sidestep 1/2 of Leblanc's kit and Zed's qs than ALL of Talon's kit, made worse by the fact that Talon's burst is usually faster than both Zed and LB.

At the moment, I feel LB is balanced because she NEEDS TO GET FED and only manages this if she is either SIMPLY A BETTER PLAYER THAN YOU or you FUCK UP REALLY HARD. Zed is almost there he just gets away with easy farming which no assassin should be able to do (Kat risks moving in closer, Talon needs items to clear with 1 rake efficiently, LB needs to use dash [also main source of damage being maxed first], and potentially her ultimate as well)

LB is just very dominating and oppressive in lane, and capitalises on mistakes really well. Late Game not-ahead (she can be equal) LB is (or should be if the game is being played by the other team right) near useless. She can't split push, she can't solo buffs/objectives easily. LeBlanc can only kill things. Note: item 3102 burst me now LB (if youre team managed to let LB through without having some measure of cc to deal with her you probs deserve whats coming to you)

Awoof3/16/2015, 1:45:58 PM1 votes

{quoted}

It's been almost 2 years now, if my memory serves me correctly, that Zed [...] been dominating Mid lane so completely.

Just letting you know, that's not true at all. He was considered weak, strong, ok, ok but less strong, and only really started to be bs since regen changes.

LostSoul6663/16/2015, 2:22:17 PM1 votes

was in a game where a zed was doing eh...until he got 2 kills then proceeded to decimate the entire team. got a penta, could burst down almost anyone. Riot calls him "healthy", yet every game i've seen with a zed in it he dominates.

S H A Y C 03/16/2015, 4:16:57 PM1 votes

at my elo...i beat most leblancs so i dont see the problem.

magic pole3/17/2015, 8:38:37 PM1 votes

lol if Leblanc is W'ing and Q+R your adc, you're doing something wrong. See wards, positioning.

seriously, it's not that hard to limit their impact if you work as a team.

Leblanc Zed are insanely strong 1v1 champs. They are great at picks, erasing 1 enemy and then proceeding to take objectives with their team.

Stop whining and how bout concentrate on winning the match via teamwork. the game is 5v5, just bc you suck vs zed or leblanc doesn't mean the game is lost.

Kyloz3/16/2015, 6:25:16 PM1 votes

All I can say for Zed is that he is one of the few champions that you can buy an item for and destroy his burst/kit... You also can get tons of ad (if you need it, implying you're an AD mid laner) if you finish out quicksilver...

Leblanc? Just ban

IcyPepper3/20/2015, 1:54:42 AM1 votes

Imagine if LB's ult can't mimic Q or at least can't proc the original Q's damage (no stacking). It might nerf her damage a little, but it would change her combo from EQRQW ignite to EQWR to force her to mimic her jump, therefore forcing her to choose between an escape or an all-in.

shrugs

Rrett3/16/2015, 6:35:47 PM1 votes

Zed isn't that bad, LB lacks staggering counterplay though.

Sir Yamazuki3/16/2015, 11:49:44 AM1 votes

Riot can't balance assassins, I honestly wish they would give up on making them. They all become a problem, or have been a problem for ages, and get to remain a problem. They already saw how much of an issue Ahri was as an assassin, mean while that's how all assassins are. Even when they are nerfed, such as Akali, they somehow rise up again. Riot thinks they are balanced just because they are squishy and lack CC, even though Le Blanc has some and Irelia is basically is a tanky assassin with a stun and is labeled as such by Riot. Not only that, but being squishy isn't much of a weakness if you have tools that make it near impossible to catch you even if you're caught out, have fun chasing Le Blanc with her 2 escapes with low cool downs that allow her to go back, or Zed with his actives+escapes.

The champions with high ban rates even happen to be what Riot considers assassins.

D16 Quindi3/16/2015, 10:27:29 PM1 votes

LOL this guy is a faggot there is a ton of counterplea for zed not so much lb but their is enough JUST USE IT don't build the same fucking items every game thats what u do i can tell each game your build should adapt to your opponents

Xela Syab3/16/2015, 12:56:32 PM1 votes

tl:dr but I do think they need to do something about their blinks, there's too much mind games with them and safety. They need to reduce the time between their blinks and shadows so they don't have a few seconds to warp somewhere else and avoid getting ganked.

Chespin20133/17/2015, 2:18:40 AM1 votes

pretty sure fizz is much more balanced since they nerfed i feel like now its not effortless to get kills as him before so thats good with honestly the only champs that need rework or a straight up gut is leblanc being too safe as a midlaner and nidalee for so much bullshit damage and kalista having no limited amount of dashes and no max stacks