@Riot, when can we start getting simple champs again?

Bard Is Broken·Jun 30, 2015·198 votes·8,776 views

Champ from 2011 be like:

Passive - You gain a shield

Q - Throws a shard

W - Gains an AoE on autos for some time

E - Slams ground

R - Belly flops and knocks everything up

Champ from 2015 be like:

Passive - You gain a Phreaky shield every 10 seconds that makes a pun that hurts enemies.

Q - Throws a Shard, dealing 10/20/30/40/50 +0.5 AD +0.5 AP +0.5% of your maximum health +0.5% of the Jewish population in new york city in mixed damage.

W - Gains an AoE on autos for some time, but also makes auto attacks skillshots, forcing you to sync a wii remote for the time being.

E - Slams the ground, dealing 10% of the enemies Bank Funds in magic damage. If the enemy is at bestbuy using a store model computer, this deal 10% more damage.

R - Belly flops, awakening Cthulhu. You can control Cthulhu for 15 seconds. Anything he steps on will be crushed and dealt 99% of their maximum health in magic damage. If the enemy is below 10% maximum health after this attack, they are executed.

157 Comments

FarRockBFJun 30, 201598 votes

Where is the shield and the dash?

Trash champion.

Bard Is BrokenJun 30, 201586 votes

{quoted}

Where is the shield and the dash?

Trash champion.

The shield will be gained as compensation if you don't have a Wii Remote.

The dash will require a pair of Air Jordans.

Rew711Jul 1, 20154 votes

Is it point and click or skill shot?

LICENSED HOOKERJun 30, 20159 votes

wheres the double passive blink -_-

FastAsHeckJun 30, 201530 votes

where is the knockup? and the 3rd autoattack effect?

AMYS GRAVEJul 1, 20157 votes

If you land your q skillshot three times (cooldown resets upon hitting a champion) it knocks up the enemy and deals an aditional 0.3% of US GDP in physical damage with a MS boost of 0.1% mass (kg) of the nearest asteroid.

DivewingJun 30, 201558 votes

Because if its simple then we have something like this: New champion: strong late game ADC Q: Is it stronger than Vayne or Kog Maw? A: No Q: does it bring anything that either or the other 2 don't? A: It applies on hit effects with it's W.

Cool, now we know not to waste time on this new champion that is outclassed by pre-existing champions.

This is the problem with simplicity, it becomes absurdly difficult to fit uniqueness in there, so it becomes a "whos better" contest. New champions each have something none of the others can emulate. That is why champions are getting more complicated.

AnidanJun 30, 201515 votes

Not only that, the simple champions we already have face pretty much nothing but complaints. Not complaints about identity, but complaints about their power level versus their ease of use. Popular examples: Annie & Garen .

Both good, but very straightforward, and have seen nerfs directly because of their ease at drawing from their large power pool, especially Annie. If Riot releases another simple champion, they'll have to worry about both identity and community opinion on yet another simple champion that could be extremely powerful with less effort than, say, Lee Sin or Syndra.

With a simple champion you also have to worry about the champion being binary, because it's likely that they would be at that point.

Basically, Riot has advanced the game in such a direction that simple champions are actually more trouble than they're worth in terms of releases in the future.

XonraJul 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Not only that, the simple champions we already have face pretty much nothing but complaints. Not complaints about identity, but complaints about their power level versus their ease of use. Popular examples: & .

Both good, but very straightforward, and have seen nerfs directly because of their ease at drawing from their large power pool, especially Annie. If Riot releases another simple champion, they'll have to worry about both identity and community opinion on yet another simple champion that could be extremely powerful with less effort than, say, Lee Sin or Syndra.

With a simple champion you also have to worry about the champion being binary, because it's likely that they would be at that point.

Basically, Riot has advanced the game in such a direction that simple champions are actually more trouble than they're worth in terms of releases in the future.

Poor Syndra.

No one liked her, then she was all super popular for a split and a half in 2014.

Riot broke her now no one likes her again (her bug that Riot seems to be ignoring isn't helping matters).

Mandang0Jun 30, 20157 votes

That's fine and well for now, but if Riot keeps releasing Ekkos/Kalistas/Yasuos, the same will be true of them in short time too.

Kuroi86Jul 1, 20155 votes

Hence we have champs like Velkoz and Bard . As the roster keeps growing, old champs will need updates to help them keep pace and new champs will need more innovative kits in order to avoid simply being a copy paste champ.

Mandang0Jul 1, 201513 votes

New doesn't make something not copy paste, just like old doesn't make it stale. Anivia has one of the simplest kits in the game, and it's still absolutely unique and interesting. As well-designed as Velkoz is, I don't think his design is really very unique aside from his ult. I don't hold that against him - not everything needs to be super novel. He's a poke/control mage that does those jobs well and has healthy counterplay and interaction. His kit's also not super complicated, so I'd guess the OP approves of his design.

Likewise, moving ahead, it's not hard to make another poke mage when Velkoz is the recent standard. Maybe you take the focus off of comboing and instead place it on area denial, which is a strength many poke mages have, but not so much Velkoz. Maybe you focus the next one on displacement and disengage rather than damage. The problem I have with the champions I listed in the other post is that their strengths are all over the place. ADC releases have been mobility crept to hell, so what's Riot going to have to do if they want to release a low-mobility ADC? Give them utility? Well, if Kalista already has a 2s knockup ult that can save her allies and engage for her team, on top of scouting and a slow, that utility becomes harder and harder to provide. Same for the others' kits and their roles.

At the end of the day, I feel a lot more confident in Riot developing new diverse champs when they don't load kits to be good at everything. It's easier to make a diverse group of specialists rather than a diverse group of swiss army knife champs. Riot did a good job of this in the past, which isn't surprising considering where the game came from, but they moved away from it. In fact, I see a lot of the same problems with how Riot's designing new champs in how they started the bruiser designs they've said they regret, but that's a whole different can of worms that I don't want to open (Fighter rework soonTM)

NielzJun 30, 201519 votes

"+0.5% of the Jewish population in new york city in mixed damage."

hahaha im part of that group

MohawkBirdJun 30, 20159 votes

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AreJul 1, 20153 votes

You can be creative and still have simple champs. There doesn't need to be a passive on every skill. Not everything needs to be a skill shot.

MohawkBirdJul 1, 20152 votes

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Aeolian MelodiesJul 1, 20154 votes

A champion can be original and be a creative design and still be simple. Simplicity in design does not necessarily translate into simplicity in gameplay.

If you take Janna, for instance, she has a clear concept behind her skills. In essense, she is simple: Janna is designed around moving around quickly with/to her team (her passive + her W passive), and keeping enemies from hurting priority target. This is a champion that was clearly made to protect allies; she has a shield, she has an AoE knock up, an AoE knock back + AoE heal over time, and a slow; yet in terms of champion difficulty, she is often considered a support that's hard to pick up because shields need proper timing to be useful, she does little to no damage in trades, and her ult is basically a Damocles sword.

AreJul 1, 20153 votes

Boring is something that differs for every player. I consider champions like Garen, Akali, Janna, Malphite, etc etc to be fun. Vel Koz is a simple champion, but he is fun to play.

Xin Zhao, Anivia, and Oriana are all sort of difficult to play. Champions like Akali and Talon are difficult to regards to timing (usually in higher ELOs).

FelixphaetonJun 30, 20158 votes

Passive - doubles crit strike chance but reduces crit strike damage a small amount to compensate. Also gives a shield when secondary resource is full, which fills up by movement.

Q - Short range linear skillshot that can crit, unless you cast the spell in your E, in which cast it turns into a circular area around you, and cooldown scales off attack speed instead of standard CDR. Also stacks a buff that at 2 stacks will cause the next Q to fire a long-range linear tornado projectile that can also crit that knocks champions up, unless you're in your E, in which case it will simply knock up champions in a circle around you when your E ends.

W - Sets up a wall a short range in front of you that blocks all projectiles, also has a passive that increases your flow every time you E

E - a short range dash that goes through your target to its full range regardless of your distance from the target, does not scale off cooldown reduction, instead the spell's cooldown scales down only with levels, and the time between successive casts on the same target is dictated by a circle that winds down around and also scales only with levels. Speed of dash is dependant on movespeed and each cast also gives a buff that increases the damage of the next cast, stacking up to 4 times.

R - blinks to a knocked up target and holds them there, increasing the time they are knocked up, dealing damage and granting a full flow bar, also grants bonus armor pen for a duration after the cast and resets all stacks of the buff given by Q.

Modern champions in a nutshell.

DucksGoMoofulJun 30, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Passive - doubles crit strike chance but reduces crit strike damage a small amount to compensate. Also gives a shield when secondary resource is full, which fills up by movement.

Q - Short range linear skillshot that can crit, unless you cast the spell in your E, in which cast it turns into a circular area around you, and cooldown scales off attack speed instead of standard CDR. Also stacks a buff that at 2 stacks will cause the next Q to fire a long-range linear tornado projectile that can also crit that knocks champions up, unless you're in your E, in which case it will simply knock up champions in a circle around you when your E ends.

W - Sets up a wall a short range in front of you that blocks all projectiles, also has a passive that increases your flow every time you E

E - a short range dash that goes through your target to its full range regardless of your distance from the target, does not scale off cooldown reduction, instead the spell's cooldown scales down only with levels, and the time between successive casts on the same target is dictated by a circle that winds down around and also scales only with levels. Speed of dash is dependant on movespeed and each cast also gives a buff that increases the damage of the next cast, stacking up to 4 times.

R - blinks to a knocked up target and holds them there, increasing the time they are knocked up, dealing damage and granting a full flow bar, also grants bonus armor pen for a duration after the cast and resets all stacks of the buff given by Q.

Modern champions in a nutshell.

Except that honestly, Yasuo is a pretty simple champion.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 30, 20151 votes

He is not simple. He's much more than simple, and is stupidly built just like Ekko and Taehm that is coming out.

qetzelJun 30, 20159 votes

You can phrase it quite simply though.

Passive - double crit chance + shield based on movement Q - Short skillshot, third one hit is longer and knocks targets up. W - Blocks projectiles E - Targeted dash, short cooldown R - extend a knock up, get extra damage afterwards

He is actually fairly simple.

DucksGoMoofulJun 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He is not simple. He's much more than simple, and is stupidly built just like Ekko and Taehm that is coming out.

I disagree, Yasuo can be easily explained in simple terms, the only thing I'd say is complicated about him is his passive, which tbh is only sort of complicated because he has 2. Ekko is very complicated, I'd say Gnar is pretty complicated although not to the same extent. And when I say simple/complicated, I mean champs whose kits are complicated, not someone like Zed or maybe Vayne who requires mechanical precision to do well. I don't think Tahm is that bad though.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 30, 20151 votes

Gnar isn't that complicated. Mini Form: Spam your Q and use E to escape. Mega Form: Get near an enemy with E and smash your face on the keyboard.

DucksGoMoofulJul 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Gnar isn't that complicated. Mini Form: Spam your Q and use E to escape. Mega Form: Get near an enemy with E and smash your face on the keyboard.

Again, that's mechanical knowledge, not kit complexity. Gnar has a lot of basically hidden stats, not to mention that he basically has 2 skill sets. Gnar's passive gives him different stats based on which form he's in, both q's slow but by different amounts (one depends on what rank your ult is), its cooldown is reduced, q and e also both apply his w (but only in mini form), 3 stacks on his w in mini form speeds him up, mega form stuns, he has a potential double leap on his e when in mini form, and in mini form it actually grants him attack speed, and then while his mega form ult is very simple, his mini ult passive gives different stats to q.

Gnar's kit is pretty complicated, you have to admit.

jeffpunkhJul 1, 20151 votes

Its not complicated its just stuffed. You can get the hang of it after 1 game, there's nothing "complex" about having more abilities than normal.

The only really mechanically complex champions are kalista and azir. Every other champion really isn't difficult.

Aeolian MelodiesJul 1, 20152 votes

I just wanna point out that Riot destroyed then fully reworked Sona for giving "hidden stats" and "invisible power" -> meanwhile the new champions with free stats everywhere.

KaitriJun 30, 20157 votes

this is funny but true... i mean the new champ coming up (forgot his name alrdy) got a double tf ult. he can teleport anywhere on the map and take a teammate with him. what the fuck? why would you make a champ that has twice the ult of another champ? same with gnar passive, as mega gnar he combines shyvana nasus renekton ult. wtf?

Best Darius KRJun 30, 201512 votes

Because Tahm's ult is highly telegraphed

Knight SoIaire Jun 30, 201514 votes

oh rly ?

tf presses a button and everyone gets to know he did so ... then they get an always visible sign of the exact spot he teleports to

meanwhile tahm presses a button and only people who will notice his destination point will be aware of it

the only real drawback to tahms ult compared to tf is that tahm might channel longer if his ally derps around instead of jumping into him ... besides that tf is much more telegraphed than tahm

Preacher SaibaJun 30, 20156 votes

Actually.tahms ult pings the enemy where you are going it's highly telegraphed and taking damage stops it,not to mention the delay of coming up out of the ground gives people time to run to tower.

GhiefelsteinJul 1, 20154 votes

And tf has a targetted stun and burst, unlike Tahm. Tahm needs to bring a threat with him, because he isn't that scary himself.

NinjaToad99Jul 1, 20154 votes

Tahm's ult pings the enemy with it's destination and shows it, unlike TF's which just shows it
It is delayed, much like TF's
It's range is much shorter then TF's
Damage interrupts it, unlike TF's

Iron IV dudeJul 1, 20154 votes

If you deal enough dmg on tf, while he is ulting, it surely does interrupt it!

LarasoJun 30, 20157 votes

My question is, why does everyone have a hard-on for simple champions? What's wrong with complexity?

Kal Vas FlamJun 30, 20158 votes

{quoted}

My question is, why does everyone have a hard-on for simple champions? What's wrong with complexity?

What's wrong with simplicity?

SachabotJun 30, 20153 votes

Nothing's wrong with simplicity. But if you don't add complexity, you don't get anything new, and then what's the point of making new stuff? And without new content to look forward to, people will stop playing and the game will die much sooner. They're just trying to put food on the table doing something they enjoy, man. I don't see why everyone hates on it.

Kal Vas FlamJun 30, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Nothing's wrong with simplicity. But if you don't add complexity, you don't get anything new, and then what's the point of making new stuff? And without new content to look forward to, people will stop playing and the game will die much sooner. They're just trying to put food on the table doing something they enjoy, man. I don't see why everyone hates on it.

Here's my problem with complexity in LoL: it doesn't exist. The only difference between Annie and Azir is the learning curve. Annie takes 10 games to master while Azir takes maybe 30 or 40. These are arbitrary numbers obviously. The only difference between them in terms of gameplay is the amount of time investment required. If it was an issue of complexity then Azir would be more prone to make mistakes, but that really isn't the case, a good Azir will not make many (if any) mistakes just like a good Annie won't either. Azir just takes longer to learn the proper button mashing sequence, that's it.

But here's the kicker, Azir's kit is much more loaded than Annie's because of his fabricated complexity. Azir is one of the most broken champions in the game despite receiving massive nerfs shortly after his release. The reason for this is because his kit can just do too much. He was given that huge kit because of his perceived difficulty to play. Difficulty, in this game at least, does not exist though. It is a game of patterns, combinations, and reflexes, and any champion can be made to be easy by simply playing said champion several times and learning the proper patterns of play, combinations of abilities, and reflexes in given situations.

Now, do I mind a "complex" champion? No. Do I want every single new champion forever to be "complex?" Hell no. I don't always have 100 hours to waste learning a new champion. Sometimes I'd like to master one in a 20 or so hour investment, but I don't get to do that anymore with the way Riot is designing champions now. The time it takes to travel a learning curve combined with the fact that "complex" really means "overloaded" in this game is why I generally prefer simplicity.

You can also create new mechanics that are simple - Bard's passage thing is pretty easy to learn and use, I would classify that as "simple." We will probably just disagree - I do, however, respect your opinion.

SrirachaLimesJul 1, 20153 votes

"The only difference between Annie and Azir is the learning curve. Annie takes 10 games to master while Azir takes maybe 30 or 40. These are arbitrary numbers obviously."

This statement simplifies their differences so much that you completely ignore everything about them. You only address their differences in how long it takes to learn a champion.

If you view the only difference between champions is how long it takes to learn them, then Riot should just release the same champion over and over again, except with varying skill levels and slightly different abilities, passives, and base stats. Obviously, that would be ridiculous.

Kal Vas FlamJul 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"The only difference between Annie and Azir is the learning curve. Annie takes 10 games to master while Azir takes maybe 30 or 40. These are arbitrary numbers obviously."

This statement simplifies their differences so much that you completely ignore everything about them. You only address their differences in how long it takes to learn a champion.

If you view the only difference between champions is how long it takes to learn them, then Riot should just release the same champion over and over again, except with varying skill levels and slightly different abilities, passives, and base stats. Obviously, that would be ridiculous.

I think you missed my point. I'm not saying Annie and Azir are the same champion but with different time investment requirements. The learning curve for them is different, and that is just one of several differences. My greater point was that complexity in this game, as in mechanics and gameplay, doesn't actually exist. Complexity would suggest that some champions in this game are hard to play, to which none are. I was simply stating that what people perceive as "complexity" in this game is really just the variance in time required to learn the gameplay patterns and mechanical combinations for a particular champion.

When we say "every champion is easy to pick up but some are harder to master," that pretty much confirms that complexity is a myth. What people are really asking for is champions with a high ceiling cap, but this can be done without trying to make champions difficult by giving them overloaded kits. I have learned the hard way in the last couple of weeks that Veigar is a difficult champion to play well. Not because he's complex, but because he trades high damage potential for high vulnerability. His strengths are significant and also significantly offset by his weaknesses. I like that about him though. His kit is simple, but difficult to master, and that's what I would like to see more of. I, personally, do not want to see more Ekkos with 20 different powers compressed into 4 abilities (an exaggeration I know).

Once we understand that complexity in this game is a lie, and understand what players _really _ want from champion design, then we can proceed to making truly fun and alluring content. What we want are strong champions with significant downsides. Champions that can counter well and be countered well. Some may also want champions that can do everything meaningful in the game within their 4 ability power set, I am not one of those people.

AbodyHUN666Jul 1, 20151 votes

But if you look at the reworks, most of them are kept quite simple and straightforward. Soraka has a spammable heal that costs health, a poke that restores health, a heal everyone and a point and click silence. Sion also has and easy to learn kit since if you are unconfortable with his ult, using it point blank is always an option. If you look at Braum, he is also kept quite simple, I kinda feel like he is the modern age Taric with a bit more interesting kit, more counterplay potential and the satisfying feeling of blocking that one last auto which would have killed your carry.

Kal Vas FlamJul 1, 20154 votes

I agree with you 100% on those. I would like to see more Braum style designs actually. Real simple champ with a lot of gameplay options. Sometimes I run head on into the enemy team with his ice shield up just to see if they panic and scatter lol.

AbodyHUN666Jul 1, 20151 votes

I make enemy carries and assisins leave my wards alone just by bluffing and solo walking up to them because of how long it takes to kill me and how long it takes to escape me.

Kyril SlateJul 1, 20153 votes

I'd like to add a tidbit here. I tend to play champs that are "difficult" or just branded so, just generally off meta. I have to concur that complexity is a bit fabricated. But only on the face value of a champion. A champions true complexity comes out in there gameplay, not there skills. Take for example my three favorite champions. Anivia Evelynn and Teemo I find these champions complex while others see them as pretty simple. The reason being is there deployment. I can take Eve and build her as sustain, burst, AA reliant, or tanky. Same with Teemo. These champions are complex in there reliability and playstyle. Now take a look at Anivia. She has had the same kit pretty much since beta and in my opinion she is the most complex of ANY champion. She has the lowest health of any champ yet you can turn her into the beefiest tank in the game if you slap a GA, sunfire, warmogs, and RoA on her. Taking a look at the other side of the spectrum, with soulstealer and full ap, a sinlge Q E combo every semi squishy is dead. Seiging, sustaining, tanking, supporting, hypercarry, or split pusher, she can pretty much do it all. If that's not complex I don't know what is. Now, the real question is, can Riot release more champions like Anivia Simple at face value, but complex enough to still be useful and fun in most situations.

Maximum ZileanJul 1, 20156 votes

so far, Tahm'kench may be what we need if your looking for a simple champion.

he isn't overly complicated, he has a clear role. With clear weaknesses. and the best thing? HE DOESN'T HAVE 1000 DASHES.

Rallen320Jul 1, 20155 votes

Maybe i'm a little late on this, but does anyone else remember that when Wukong came out, one of the biggest complaints about him (besides the bugs) was how "generic" he was? He had a free stat passive, an AA mod Q, gap closer E, a maybe interesting escape gimmick on W, except that. at the time, it was telegraphed as all hell because you could watch his mana, and an AoE stun ult. Everyone was saying something along the lines of "sure he's useful, but why play him and have no fun when i could play any other bruiser and enjoy myself?"

FirstSergeantBimJul 1, 20153 votes

Bard, Rek'Sai, Braum and Vel'Koz are all pretty simple champions and they happen to be 4 of the last 8 champions released. They're all pretty straightforward and the only reason a player wouldn't do well with any one of them is because they lack knowledge of the game itself. If you cannot grasp one or two more concepts introduced to a new champion, then how can we expect you to understand physics and science in general? If you truly struggle with the complexity of some of the newer champions Riot has released, then I fear for our society as a whole.

Runes, Masteries, items, strategies and tactics are all more important than your champion pick. There's a reason Runes cost so much IP and there's a reason why "snowball" is a term used quite frequently. That reason is because your success in League is contingent upon your ability to prepare your chosen champion for each specific match and then follow-up that preparation with educated decision-making throughout that match.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 1, 20151 votes

Bard is simple? Really?

jeffpunkhJul 1, 20152 votes

There's nothing mechanically complex about bard. Anyone can pick him up and play him.

The only real complex champions are kalista and azir, so I don't know what everyone if crying about. Every other champion you can take them ranked after like 5 games.games.