PSA From All Junglers to Everyone

Droogzy·5/25/2015, 7:34:00 PM·18 votes·2,432 views

This thread was inspired out of a few recent games I've had as a jungler, one with Udyr and one with Shyvana. If this is in the wrong forum, please let me know. (Wasn't sure where it should go! :) )

To give a little bit of backstory for my recent Shyvana game:

The game I had with Shyvana, the game started, the opposing team had a Kha'Zix jungler and I was playing Shyvana jungle. Naturally, Kha'Zix likes early game pressure ganks, not surprisingly, he starts ganking lanes about 7 minutes into the game, and he was not doing amazing per se. Registered a few kills but also gave up several deaths. He left the laning phase 6 and 5 with no assists if I remember correctly.

Being Shyvana, I got my devourer/Cinderhulk and proceeded to power farm for the first 20 minutes, only coming out of the jungle to counter jungle when I knew Kha'Zix was in the bottom lane when I was top, or vice versa. Or if not that, to provide pressure on to a lane that needed help pushing the lane back in their favor. I left the laning phase with no kills and no deaths, getting flamed for the lack of provided kill pressure in the laning phase, yet nonetheless, I still maintained a lane presence (I will digress, not as strong as I would want.)

Meanwhile, Kha'Zix had around 50 CS when I had 80 CS, I did not take any lane creeps at all during this time, so this is purely jungle CS. Not only that, I slowly, but surely was gaining level advantages over him very quickly.

For those you that are junglers, you know how big of a CS advantage that is for junglers, for those that don't, its quite massive, each CS for a jungler is worth approximately 30-40 gold overall? I could be wrong, if someone knows the exact answer let me know. Point being, I had easily several thousand gold over Kha'Zix as well as two levels.

In other words, despite the lack of kill pressure in the lane, I was destroying Kha'Zix and his team in gold income and the lanes overall were not doing too badly, despite the ganks. Nonetheless flaming was occurring telling me I am a terrible jungler etc, quit the game etc, you get the idea.

Finally, after farming for around 25 minutes, I had 4 and half completed items, item wise, it was clear I had the highest gold income out of everyone by several thousands. Most had JUST finished their third item, with the exception of our WW who had a beautiful double kill on their top lane Irelia and their jungler Kha'Zix early on in the game to start his snowballing.

At that point, I came out of the jungle to start fighting. And to end what is turning into a long story, proceeded to destroy the opposing team for the final 7 to 8 minutes of the game, racking up 7 kills, 13 assists and only 1 death, and tallying a much higher kill participation than their Kha'Zix. Despite the flaming from the team, I ended up carrying my team incredibly hard. I tallied a grand total of 226k damage done overall. The next closest person tallied only 168k of damage done overall.

My game as Udyr occurred a few weeks ago, which was what originally prompted this idea for the thread. Similar start and similar end. Was first to reach full build, proceeded to split push the entire game and force the entire team to come towards me to save their tower in complete vain. In other words, carried that game, got flamed for lack of early game pressure.

So what's the point I'm trying to make here?

The point is, for you folks who prefer to stay in the lane: please understand the type of jungler you are working with. Not all Junglers are the same in the way they play the game and how/what point they are strongest at.

To use Shyvana as an example, if you are playing with a Shyvana, understand that Shyvana is at her strongest when she's allowed to power farm, in the jungle, she is capable of reaching full build the fastest out of pretty much any champion with a consistent time.

If you let her do that, what do you get? You get an unstoppable Dragon who is going to completely be near unkillable and impossible to deal with 20 to 25 minutes into the game. In order for that to happen, laners need to understand that kill pressure will not be strong from her, and play accordingly. Do not play overaggressive and allow for opposing junglers to snowball off of a few kills and allow her to farm like crazy. You let her do so, you have a strong chance of winning.

Vice versa if you're up against an early game jungler, play accordingly. If you do not hand over any kills to someone who is an early game jungler, you've won the jungler v.s. jungler battle.

To use another example, if you are playing with a Shaco or a Lee Sin, understand they are at their strongest when they applies lane pressure in the early game. What that means is to capitalize on the plays they make in the early game to maximize their contribution to the overall game. When late game comes around, they will not be as dominant of a force. Shaco will be at his strongest split pushing and Lee Sin is at his strongest peeling for his team or setting up plays.

So when Shaco goes to start split pushing, there should not be any flaming for the lack of team fight presence: his team fight presence is not strong and better served split pushing else where on the map.

This same message applies to Junglers with laners as well. Understand the lanes you are working with. If you have a lane which has a champion that has a poor laning phase, work to help mitigate the experience of that laning phase. If you do so, you will most likely get paid off with a champion who has a strong late or mid game series. Or work to help a strong lane destroy their lane so they have no chance of coming back whatsoever.

TL;DR : Understand the other damn 9 champions you are playing with, understand when they are strong, understand when they are weak. Understand what they excel at doing, understand what they are sub par at. AND PLAY ACCORDINGLY and do not flame because someone does not play the way they want you to play, and they are playing the way that best suits that champion.

That is all.

34 Comments

vfactor955/26/2015, 1:54:07 AM6 votes

Not ganking is no excuse for lack of early pressure. Yeah sure you won that game because their Kha'Zix sucked and fucked up all his ganks but what if he hadn't? Imagine if you had been against someone who actually knew what he/she was doing and they secured 6 kills without giving any?

It's incredibly unfair to go jungle and then say "yeah guys i'm just gonna powerfarm the first 20 mts of the game so you won't be getting any help from me if their jungler ganks and kills you it's because you didn't ward and you suck kthxbai"

You can buy wards and counterjungle or countergank, or at least just show your damn face in lane just to let the enemy team know you aren't afk. There's no excuse for making the first half of the game a 4v5 no matter what champion you are playing in the jungle.

Yes a lot of people are dumb and overextend without wards and then proceed to bitch about getting ganked but there are just as many times when I've seen people who aren't even overextended get killed because their jungler has absolutely no pressure and therefore the enemy team can make plays without fear of counteraggression.

RouterSmiter5/25/2015, 8:38:02 PM3 votes

Power farming for the first 20 minutes?, and you had 80cs wat...

manliestdino5/25/2015, 11:50:55 PM2 votes

Yeah, I know certain junglers are better for farming and I tell my team they will make an impact. So if you are getting ganked quite a bit, consider this: buy a ward. Seriously. People complain about them ganking when they push lane and have 0 wards. Then rage and blame and their mid laner is fed.

LifeCyclesTWA5/25/2015, 11:25:59 PM1 votes

I've made this same thread many times. I agree full-heartedly.

Some junglers can't gank worth shit but are amazing at farming the damn jungle very quickly and efficiently. FE: Shyvana, Master Yi.

People feel like you are not contributing when you aren't ganking 24/7 and totally underestimate how much of a factor counter-jungling can be. So yeah, farm the damn jungle, and make your laners feel like pros when they get double-triple kills when the other team's starved under-leveled jungler tries to force a gank.

Legendary Silver5/26/2015, 1:09:18 AM1 votes

The rage at junglers in normal blind pick is astounding.

Was playing on another account - queue up, fill as jungler (did not choose it) because I don't care what I get to play.

Game started 4v5. Someone queued up with a storm outside that he knew could potentially knock out his power... it did.

I go to try to help bot lane - I get pinged away, no big deal. And then a few minutes later I'm furiously pinged back. I ignore the pings and powerfarm and so my ADC starts shit talking me. Then mid ignores his own ward, gets ganked and complains about how Shaco has been ganking him a lot in the early game - starts flaming me. Our support gets back from his power outage, starts flaming me.

I end the game with the most CS on my team, super tanky and Shaco is irrelevant. I had to sit through tons and tons of flaming from 3 people to do it.

Top lane said nothing the whole game though - so I threw honorable team-mate his way.

Slamurai Jack5/26/2015, 4:33:58 AM1 votes

80 CS at 20 minutes for a power farming jungler is terrible. I know it's just an example, but I play alot of Shyvana jungle too, and I can easily eclipse 100 CS at 20 minutes if I dont constantly have to babysit lanes. Between farming my jungle, taking scuttle, and stealing the enemy jungle, I can easily be up 50-60 CS ahead of the enemy jungler at 20 minutes in a good game. I do agree with your post in general that people need to stop expecting junglers to be their gank slaves, but your numbers seem way, way off. And frankly, if you're playing Shyvana jungle and you have a lead on the enemy jungler, you need to be in his jungle constantly, stealing camps and laying down wards to help protect your team since you aren't ganking.

P.S Unrelated jungle tip: If one of your laners ever says "Come ez gank", It is 100% guaranteed not an easy gank and you'll be lucky if none of you die on that ill-advised gank.

Davy Crockett5/26/2015, 7:17:06 AM1 votes

I just want my Shyvana Jungler to at least show up in lane once to get that annoying opponent to back off. Your teammates really appreciate it.

T RexHasTinyArms5/26/2015, 7:46:10 AM1 votes

I like the post and pretty much agree w/ the sentiment, but your mention of the damage is a bit short sighted. W/ those numbers you're not talking damage to champs (that's usually between 20-50 k), and someone who farms heavy should ALWAYS have he most overall damage, bc they were doing damage the whole time to stuff that doesn't fight back. If you are gonna talk carry damage, then you need to reference damage to champs. Overall damage is a pretty pointless stat since CS/gold is more important for farming damage (doesn't matter if you damage stuff and don't get gold from it), and damage to champs is the stat that defines team fight damage. I definitely agree that a farming jungle is a different style and laners need to understand that IF the lanes are going mostly even, then the early game pressure jungle is getting out farmed and out scaled, and is thus losing hard. Similarly though I would say that jungles need to understand that when you pick a farming jungle and fail to apply any pressure early (obviously it will be less, but you can apply a little), then lanes getting crushed by their opponents when the enemy jungle ganks well and applies that early pressure, is not the lanes losing and letting you down, but the other jungle capitalizing on their power spike and beating you hard. It's like picking Nasus in top lane. If you go even you win, but if team gets crushed by top lane roams, no complaining about your lanes, bc you're the one who picked Nasus.

Clockwork Madoka5/26/2015, 5:15:05 PM1 votes

This is a bit of a vent, but...

Had a game last night (Jungle Evelynn) where I had to farm to get my jungling item, as well as some beginning damage to be effective in a gank. Not even level 6, and my entire team wants me to gank, almost every lane being pushed ridiculously close to the enemy tower. Each enemy, fed at least 3 kills and assists.

End of the game, they all openly say "our jungle sucks", even though almost every ganking "opportunity" had incredible risk.

FastAsHeck5/26/2015, 6:25:41 PM1 votes

80 cs at 20? holy crap thats a lot... as a fellow jungler, who knows the value of jungle cs, i tip you my fedora :p

Only Play Darius5/26/2015, 6:44:33 PM1 votes

MasterYi

Droogzy5/26/2015, 10:02:27 PM1 votes

Sorry for the long delayed absence, can't respond to everyone don't have time, but to sum up.

It seems I came across as the classic "I'm gonna carry my team, so ***k you all I'm going to farm." That was not my intentions, it did however come across that way, and for that I apologize, it was a bit of a venting when I was talking about that game, so I do apologize for it.

I do believe the underlying message I'm trying to make is important, perhaps deleting the game recount and focus on expanding what I was trying to get my point across with? It seems the recap is doing no good in trying to reinforce the argument I'm trying to make, and with good reasons.

Not only for jungling dynamics but for lane dynamics, would everyone be alright with me just getting rid of that and revising the original post? Seems I did a terrible job of getting my point across.

{quoted}

Shyvana is not known for her kill pressure prowess during the laning phase.

This is precisely what top lane shyv is known for. Jg shy rather lacks the cc and can't trade over extended periods to whittle them down for kill pressure. It's why she's a better laner than jg. The addition of chilling smite gives her an early option tho, don't discount it. Most jgs should take chilling for the early game kill potential, laners who take smite want skirmishers for mid and late game duel potential. Understanding how to maximize the efficiency of everything you do is also key to moving up, from proper synergistic picks in lobby, to proper builds according to situation in game.

Shyvana is definitely better in top lane, that's for sure. However, I'm terrible in solo lanes, but excel in jungle, which is why I reside there :p

I'll give the chilling smite a whirl next time I'm playing her, that makes pretty good sense. I've done skirmisher before.

YOUGOTKILLEDBRO5/27/2015, 12:21:46 AM1 votes

So it is better to flame a no gank lee sin than a no gank shyvanna? Great! Lee Sin mains going down! (Sorry Foxdrop)

Onimus Terlain5/25/2015, 9:39:53 PM1 votes

Shyvana and Kha'zix as the two junglers?

Did this happen 5 months ago?

Budupops5/25/2015, 11:20:10 PM1 votes

oh so your that jg who literally never ganks/communicates and then starts splitpushing at 30 min in, sound like me s4 with d godyrUdyr item 3154

Yormaughm5/26/2015, 6:43:39 AM

{quoted}

TL;DR : Understand the other damn 9 champions you are playing with, understand when they are strong, understand when they are weak. Understand what they excel at doing, understand what they are sub par at. AND PLAY ACCORDINGLY and do not flame because someone does not play the way they want you to play, and they are playing the way that best suits that champion.

This part is great and I agree with it completely. Understanding this and knowing how to adapt to it (which takes a lot of time and practice) is crucial to being good at the game.

Problem is though, in the rest of your post you make the classic LoL player's error: assuming that you're the only person who can carry the team to victory. You're essentially saying; "Why don't my teammates understand that if they just leave me alone and let me farm, once we hit the 25 minute mark, I can win the game for us?" (And if that's not what you're saying then by omission you're essentially saying "I picked a champion who is practically useless until late game, why don't my teammates understand that?" which opens up a whole nother can of worms.)

While you make a valid point about "My teammates should know that if I get a lot of farm as Shyvana I'm unstoppable late game" you also have this expectation that they're on board with you being the one carrying the team and don't mind altering their playstyles to set up that exact scenario. Furthermore you assume that the enemy team doesn't start winning lanes (possibly with the help of their early-pressure jungler) which could prevent you from farming even if your team was on board with it. TL;DR for this paragraph - You're making too many assumptions, and the thing you're really complaining about is lack of communication. Just checked your link, this was a team builder game, meaning you had the opportunity to tell your team how you were going to play before committing to the match, you should never expect your teammates to be psychic.

IMO the jungler is the most important person on the team because they have the ability to control the pace of the game, and can make game changing plays, or game changing throws. (This is why I really don't like to jungle, I don't like the responsibility, although I love a lot of jungle champs.) But effectively since you control the pace of the game, by spending a long time powerfarming without ganking for your team, who are probably used to and expecting help from you so that they can achieve some early-game win conditions, you're essentially saying; "I'm not ready to be the hero and carry us just yet." In effect you're holding your team hostage. It's not surprising that they'd be unhappy about that.

You also need to remember that the average LoL player is probably thinking the same thing about themselves; that they're the hero who will single-handedly win the game for your team. I personally think it would be great if we could erase this mentality altogether, but we know it won't ever happen, and sad to say, as important as the role is, the jungler is not usually the person who's "expected" to carry, they're expected to selflessly aid their teammates in much the same way as a support does. It's therefore not surprising that a teammate who sees a jungler farming instead of ganking might think you aren't interested in getting the win, or are at least selfishly looking to keep all the glory to yourself, then they might logically think you're a bad teammate.

This isn't a criticism of your skill or game knowledge, both are probably in a good place, but I feel like your communication is probably sub-par and your expectations of your teammates are probably too high, which actually could be solved with better communication. It'd be great if everyone had the same amount of game knowledge and could make certain assumptions based on certain things like champion selection, but that'll never be the case so sometimes it's just best to tell your teammates what you're doing.