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The end of Ryze.

gKBXj2j1Ec·2/18/2016, 9:29:43 AM·6 votes·940 views

Hello guys. I do not know how many of you will understand what I'm complaining about here but since the win-rate for this champion in lower elo is way lower than high-elo as it became a perma-ban at LCS it doesn't matter anymore if you take the time to study Ryze's combos because you always get 5 resets, no matter what. And 5 resets are so little. Even at level 3, I was quite reliably getting 7 resets in a snare combo.

I don't know what's the main tier of most of the guys here and I don't want to offend anybody, but what's the point in having to waste 4 seasons ( I play since season 2 ) to main Ryze like a boss, finally getting Challenger last season just by playing Ryze toplane, just so... in the end, to have 5 resets only.

Seriously.. I just tried Ryze in platinum tier.. with mana runes ( for me mana runes are the most viable option since S6 came in ).. vs a volibear and a darius... which is to mention that .. I had no trouble in playing against these guys even after the juggernaut patch. It was an easy kill at level ~4 vs Voli only by harrassing with AA till he gets hi's passive on then just use the 3-5 combo on him.. insta kill.

Same on darius, after level 3, he was most likely dead unless he was a safe laner which most of the Darius player's are not.

To be honest.. I couldn't even get close to killing a tank... with full 5 resets in a snare combo I could get at most... half of their HP down then, I find myself pushed in lane, with everything on CD.

I understand that Riot wanted to cap the damage guys like me can deal, since having 5 resets max during the charge has no impact on low-elo players, they hardly get there, here's the reason of the low win-rate.

Ryze will never be the same for me now, at most, you can kill a decent adc / midlane while getting the full combo, as you can see here: https://youtu.be/XGn9bB1bPLY

So, I just managed to kill their adc which was 2 levels lower than me with 5 resets during the charge. Imagine if a tank was there, had no chance of doing anything but scratch them a little and maybe run away with the remainder of my ult.

Just as the guy I learned Ryze from said.. you cannot nerf a champion just because it's OP in high elo. Even in master league, the win rate for ryze in the last months of S5 was around 46%. Good bye 80% winrate in 100 games with ryze, goodbye Master or Challenger as I can't find any other champs as fun as ryze, or to scale that well in late.

Ryze had ( still has ) his own cons, but then, what's the reason to learn how to master complex mechanics / combos for a champ if after you manage in doing that, it gets nerfed just because Faker owns with it at LCS.

Low elo guys don't benefit from a champ like Ryze because they're low-elo. If they were able to understand all the combos and the mechanics, they wouldn't be low elo. Isn't this the point of this game ? Isn't the division system made so we can see who's a master tier player and who's a bronze 3 ?

What's the reason of learning and trying a champ if Riot cap's my plays just so I can't be better than a silver guy, new to Ryze ?

That being said, I'm officially done playing LoL, after 4 years of fun, I just got nerfed for no reason, while others like Lux, Quinn, Graves, Mundo, Jax are still there, getting high win / pick / ban rates.

Congratz Riot, for making no difference between High Elo and gold players. You , from all of us, should be able to understand that there IS a skill gap between those leagues and of course we wont be playing a champ like they do.

4 Comments

weeaboomer2/18/2016, 10:13:37 AM3 votes

Dang, so sad that you can't perma root and kill a TANK with no counter play like you could squishies. Ryze won't be missed, he was cancer.

Fat Bastard GOD2/18/2016, 1:14:42 PM1 votes

I hate the flat cap. They need to make it scaling, lategame Ryze's passive just holds him back SO much.

QQsha2/18/2016, 2:22:39 PM1 votes

Uhhh...

  1. You CAN nerf a champ because it's OP in high ELO. This isn't a valid argument. Nerfing the champion's skill cap as opposed to it's power (with NO counter-buff), is unreasonable.
  2. 80% winrate in 100 games is absolute bullshit and is in itself a reason for a nerf. However, with the nerf he got, a 50% winrate seems to be a miracle to wish for. lolking however shows you have a 61% winrate across 41 games. That's far more reasonable, and if everyone has those stats, could warrant a nerf (but the fact is, not everyone had those stats).
  3. Ryze not being able to kill tanks is a good thing. It offers some counterplay. HOWEVER, this has always been the case. MaRin picked Mundo into Ryze at his most OP time. Huni picked Cho'Gath as his S6 counter for Ryze. Not even just tanks though, as Looper went out of the box and picked Cassiopeia against Ryze. He would've out-dueled Ryze too if not for the fact it was a 1v2 (yet he still nearly killed the Ryze).

These are the points I disagree with you on. However, I don't agree with Riot nerfing Ryze as they did without throwing in any compensating buffs. (Yes, you read that right, the Ult "buff" isn't worth anything if you went the CDR build, which is even more necessary now if you want to actually get some spell rotations off, and thus diminishes the value of the Ult "buff".)

Riot could've done a lot of things to nerf Ryze without making him less fun.

  1. Change his base cooldowns. If you slightly reduce the cooldown of E and raise the cooldown of W, you can still drop a ton of spells, but you can't near immediately chain them together. Basically the idea would be WQEQ pause EWQEQ pause EWQEW. If you raise the cooldown of W so that you need 4 spells to reset instead of 3, and slightly lower the cooldown of E so that it's only a little longer than Q, it creates small pauses in the combo, permanently removes the perma-snare, and increases the complexity of the combo. You might have to raise the duration of the passive slightly to compensate, but it's a more satisfying nerf. Or...
  2. Just raise the cooldown on W. If you do the math and assume 0s animation casting time on all spells, 0 ping, and perfect playing (so like a bot or something), each 4 spell sequence is hard capped at 2 seconds with 0% CDR, 1.4 seconds with 30% CDR, and 1.1 seconds with 45% CDR. So that means at most 19 spells (for a total of 20 resets, and a sequence of 22 AoE damage spells if you started from 1 stack, with a 4-5 second delay from repeating that sequence) assuming a LOT of things we know to be false. Ryze DOESN'T have 0s animation casting time on any spell. Perfect 0 ping exists only in OGN Champions (I think even LCS has something like 7 ping, though most of Korea has near perfect ping). And nobody plays perfectly (and if you did, we'll report you for scripting; which Riot will ignore). If you raised the cooldown to 15 seconds, then you're hard capped at 3 seconds per 4 spell sequence before any CDR. Which means, "Hey! At level 3 I can only get off 4 spells with my passive!" And with 45% CDR, there's a 1.65 second cap per 4 spell sequence, which means you can get only 3 rotations off plus up to 3 spells in the .55 seconds remaining! (You'll probably only get 1, maybe 2 with low ping, fast hands, and some luck.) But from a 1 second nerf to W's cooldown, you went from 5 spell rotations to 3.5. 20 spells to ~15.
  3. Further nerf his early game and put some of the scaling to his ult. Nerf the base scaling ratios and have his ult increase the damage on all of his abilities by a mana scaling ratio.
  4. Nerf the duration of passive and/or put a hard cap on how long it takes to come back up (but allow the stacks to accumulate up to 4).
  5. Increase the cast animation times! I don't know their values, but you can easily modify them so that there's a definitive hard cap that you like. He might feel more sluggish to play, but it's an under-the-table nerf that doesn't even have to be (officially) documented.
  6. Move the passive to his ult! And make his passive... Mana scaling based on champion level? Scaling CDR? AoE damage every 4th spell?

Now, instead of rethinking that poor decision of a nerf (because I know you'll never undo it until you rework Ryze, AGAIN), these are the points I think Ryze could use as a counterbuff.

  1. Buff his damage vales (base or scaling).
  2. Lower his mana costs. In the laning phase, unless you went for a mana cheese build, your actual early lane pressure was pretty weak. Yes, this is technically a good thing, but if you wanted to trade damage or even all in, you'd most likely run out of mana against any decent opponent before you could do anything substantial. Raising his base damages is an alternative route to giving him back some lane presence. Having both buffs would be nice. Lowering mana costs and improving his scaling ratios I think is the fairest way to go about it. I would prefer simply improving the base and scaling damage since mana becomes irrelevant once you get RoA (or are mid Ryze). But this is likely too much of a buff across the board. It improves his lane presence, his midgame power spike, and his lategame power. At the same time, Riot nerfed his mid and lategame strength insanely hard (5/19 of previous passive damage potential, 9/22 of previous total damage potential with 0 counterbuffs), so the buffs might be warranted.
  3. Or drastically increase the amount of resets because 5 isn't enough. Realistically, there SHOULD be a massive difference between a top level player and a Bronze player. The fact that Riot doesn't want this to be true is insane. The fact that they actually lowered the skillcap of the game is absurd. Hell, next patch let's just remove the fog of war so warding and ward placement doesn't mean anything anymore. The patch after that let's add an item with 25% crit that kills anything it lands a crit on so we can just play the RNG game (I mean, it's not like Riot ever did that before).
  4. Completely remake him. Again...

Riot turned a strong champion (which I personally never felt to be broken, just stupidly strong), and turned him into garbage with a remake, made him viable with a single buff/change which also turned him into the most broken piece of work that has ever hit the rift, then nerfed him into the ground (with some meta shifts), then buffed his support items (then subsequently nerfed them) and reworked base mana values while nerfing other champions. And yet we're STILL nerfing him into the ground when he had a 45% winrate, which only hovers around 50% and diamond and up. Not only that, his competitive winrate in most regions were in the low 40s. In a few regions he's at or close to 50. Ryze may be a scary champion when ahead, but he rarely gets there. Teams will lane swap and give him all the safe farm they possibly can, wait till the 40 minute mark, and they STILL might not win the game. We as the viewer have to suffer through 40 minutes of Ryze farming the side lane (if not freezing the damn wave) to become some God-like force, and they STILL don't even win a majority of those games. I mean, at least when Jax was 100% pick/ban, and got a ton of farm without being harassed, he WOULD win most of those games. Yet we have Ryze, a far more broken champion by design, and he can't even break 50%. And we nerfed him. Through the bedrock. Into the fires of hell... I mean I understand the sentiments of most people who don't play Ryze (and hate playing against it). It's like me and my sentiments about Riven. I HATE Riven, and I'd like for her to stay in the ground. But UNLIKE Riven, Ryze ISN'T a lane bully unless you go a cheese build (which is VERY obvious because they usually have a Sapphire Crystal at level 1 and even if they didn't, probably have much more mana than they should at level 1).

And that ult "buff"... What the hell... Unless you get blue buff, you're not going to be able to use your ult to clear the wave long term. And if you had blue buff, you'd have ult up nearly every wave in 6.2 anyways going the CDR build. And I usually got a near full reset on the rank 2 ults everytime during fights (which lets you easily start a second combo). Now I have to wait 13 seconds no matter what at rank 2, and 5.5 seconds at rank 3. So I get ult 10 seconds earlier at levels 6~9. But after that I get penalized no matter how I look at it. So it's still a nerf. No matter how you cut it, except for that ~3 level window (where it's a minor buff), it's a nerf.

tl;dr Still waiting on an ACTUAL compensating buff for Ryze after you gutted him (again).

Danjeng2/20/2016, 2:44:37 AM1 votes

It's incredible how some people even think this patch was a BUFF because of the lowered Ultimate cool down. I really don't like how Riot took an already not-that-great champion in high elo's, and made it so that he's played the same as a brain-dead-face-roll champion.

Now regardless of how well the Ryze plays, regardless of how well the enemy counterplays him, he will only get off 5 spells during his passive. Why should edy, who put the time to actually master Ryze, have to play it on the same level as a Gold? It's not fair!

Instead of whining about how Ryze is broken (nerf pls rito), take the time to understand his counterplay. I wonder if those people get satisfaction from his nerfs. Congratulations. The game was too hard for them but they've won by complaining it was too hard and the developers made it easy. Who gives a flying fuck to those like edy that finished it on Legendary.