It's been a while Stashu. It's also doubtful you're even reading the forums anymore. But if you are

5G8Nri0B54·2/27/2015, 1:38:51 AM·47 votes·2,479 views

I don't want to come across as bullying you or anything, but...

You do remember....

We're not done looking into Cassiopeia, and I know these changes won't entirely fix the problems

and

Anyway, thanks for taking your time to post this. I understand there are still some pretty big problems left to solve, but I want everyone to know that we've still got Cassiopeia front-and-center and will continue trying to improve her.

right? One thing even you pretty much agree with is that her Passive is still downright unsatisfying the last you touched upon it.

I can't add much more than I already have. She comes off far too brutish and all-inny for someone of her archetype, but you know this already. So I'll just ask this... Did you really think it was such a great idea to revolve a champion's kit around a single overloaded* point and click** nuke whose primary purpose is damage* is such a great idea? Was it really wise to convert her into some half-baked "AP Marksmen" literally just a few weeks before a TRUE AP marksmen was released?

On a completely different note, I notice that sometimes I get his by her Q before the explosion even goes off and hit my champion. Whether it's lag or simply a misalignment of animation and mechanics I'm not entire sure, but my Anivia was not happy at all.

40 Comments

Oleandervine2/27/2015, 2:59:16 AM18 votes

For them, yes. But I feel like new Cassiopeia players don't understand how older ones feel because they've only experienced the one sided kit that she has now. Anyone playing her pre-4.21 knows that she had different paths to take when playing her, rather than "max E, stack as much AP as possible."

Cassiopeia may have decent numbers now, and a "good" win rate, but those statistics don't tell us anything about how actually fun she is. She wins, she's a gated ball of numbers. That's it. Is she fun? Not really. Her numbers and stats don't deliver this to us because people confuse winning with actually enjoying the character. When I play someone like Zyra or Lissandra, I genuinely enjoy how their kits play and, win or lose, I enjoy my games (barring toxic players). With Cass, I just feel like she's a colossal waiting game, she's boring, and she doesn't give an invigorating game experience which stings especially bad if you're losing because the nature of her kit creates a snowball-or-be-buried situation. She needs a true, involved rework, rather than the half attempt that was done for the Shurima Event.

TauNoob12/27/2015, 5:24:48 AM9 votes

Honestly I just want to know if they have any plans, I'm not a Cass main upset about the changes I just want to hear from somebody on the project.

ApplyForAGrant2/27/2015, 2:39:47 AM9 votes

While I disagree with Riot completely changing champion playstyles when no one asked them to, as someone who never played the old Cassiopeia, I feel like the new Cassiopeia is fun to play, even after the latest nerfs which brought her win rate down to 49%. She is also played regularly in EU LCS and her solo que pick rate is much higher now. There also hasen't been any Cassiopeia threads for the past month. I feel like this might cause Stashu to feel like his job is done.

Honestly idk what they should do now. If they change Cassiopeia back to what she was like before the people who enjoyed the new Cassiopeia are going to get mad. It's kind of a lose lose situation for them.

Lost In Time2/27/2015, 5:02:31 AM7 votes

You know what's funny, I was looking at the Forum Archive's and I got to the part when Cassiopeia was released.

The community, back then, mentioned that in the spotlight that Cass' main source of damage was from her E (which you call brustish), however, when it came to playing Cass they found Q and W far more rewarding. This is partly because her E was a nuicance to use due to the check system back then, but still.

Have you ever thought that Cass was reworked into a way that Riot had intended her to be all along, and that you're being a spoiled brat over the whole situation? Or in kinder words, how you envisioned Cassiopeia wasn't how Riot had envisioned her?

I think she's in a great spot right now. Her passive is a sloppy, I'll give you that, but her kit overall feels great and is in line how Riot wanted Cassiopeia to be all along.

(BTW, I don't know the exact link to source, it was in the area around 66,000th page of old GD)

EDIT: Oh look, downvotes without any replies. What else did I expect from circlejerking boards?

KaisadiIIa2/27/2015, 9:11:40 AM6 votes

I notice that sometimes I get his by her Q before the explosion even goes off and hit my champion.

I never noticed that, and I play Cassio pretty often.

Btw, Cassio needed no changes, right now she does what she did before but with a stupid, meaningless passive. I mean, that passive serves no purpose: it just grant you free AP but, to "compensate", your abilities have lower AP ratios. So the only purpose of that passive is to make your AP number look cooler. This is the current Cassio's kit: Passive — Aspect of the serpent: Your AP looks cooler now. Your ratios are lower, so no real purpose. Fuck old passive. Q — Noxious blast: Deals less damage, but E now amplifies its damage, so deals the same damage, so I don't know why we changed it. W — Miasma: Use this to spam E. No real purpose outside that. E — Twin fang: Skill-shot-based damage from Q and W was toxic and unhealthy. A point-and-click nuke with zero counterplay is more healthy. Just spam this button. R — Petrifying gaze: Miss it. You will miss it.

I miss building Rylai-Liandry to spam Q. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the new Cassio too, but I don't like the fact that they forced me and all Cassio players to a different play-style because Stashi get raped by a Cassio in a ranked and decided that Cassio's poison was "unhealthy".

EfficientDynamo2/27/2015, 5:57:45 AM5 votes

Yeah sorry man, this battle is lost. Might be more productive to ask about QoL buffs for her, or maybe where she is on the balance team's list of champs that need some work.

Also, not that this diminishes Cass' flaws, but complaints about Cass kinda pale in comparison to the problems people are having with Veigar after the soft rework.

chumbler2/27/2015, 3:17:49 AM5 votes

Don't expect anything approaching quality from this piece of shit balance team. Soon enough they'll decide that she "lacks counterplay" and nerf her to a state worse than she was in at the start of this whole garbage rework.

U4fyn2vZzW2/27/2015, 8:12:42 PM5 votes

I've given up on this champion.

So sad to see such a great and iconic mage competely gutted by a brainless moron ... and no one gives a damn.

Thryale2/27/2015, 7:50:04 PM4 votes

cass's core problem is that her Twin Fang is a poorly designed skill. It is the least interesting skill on her kit, it lacks significant counterplay (compared to old veigar's q, it had similar cd only .05 less ap ratio, 50 more range, and about 100 less base dmg. but veigar's q got turned into a skill shot due to "lack of counterplay") and it applies a debuff to the enemy to increase poison dmg.

And yet it is the singly most overloaded skill I have ever seen. It has a reset mechanic, refunds mana, heals on hit reguardless of dmg dealt (why hello vlad) If cass wants to be a "healthy" champ, riot needs to de-emphasize twin fang, and re-emphasize her zone control and harass mechanics.

Here's my 2 cents: drop the ap ratio on E from .55 to .4 and increase the base dmg at early ranks while leveling off to near the same values at rank 5 as they are on live. Remove the mana refund mechanic and in it's place halve the mana costs (increase mana cost by 5 per rank to further discourage maxing it first) And just flat out remove the hp heal on hit effect. It's unnecessary, and prevents power from being added elsewhere. Not to mention she isn't a vampire, so why are her fangs sucking blood? Also, remove the poison buff/debuff, that won't be necessary with the changes I have in mind.

This opens cass up to some significant buffs to her currently lack luster Q and W. I'd wager we'd be able to return cass's Q's ap ratio back to .8 and buff the base dmg across the board. (and if that is "too op" then we can extend the duration of the poison to 4 secs instead of 3 [note, this would make liandri/rylai's more appealing]) Id' also let us do some fun stuff to cass's W like returning the lost ap ratio and bumping the dmg per sec by 10 at all ranks and I'd even consider increasing her pool's max size and extending it's duration to 9 secs.

TheUltimateSpear2/27/2015, 9:41:56 PM4 votes

About Twin Fang as a poorly designed skill... mmm.... eh. Sure it was point and click nuke and dull on its own, but it completely relied on her skillshot spells. And, in conjucture with those spells, kiting back with it was really fun. I can see it being oppressive though since it's damage was so potential high that Cassi didn't need to bother with kiting, (against Ryze, per say, who she crapped on and still does because she outpowers him) but it's still unfathomable that they massively buffed it considering it WAS the most frustrating element of fighting her. Cassiopeia had a muddled identity before, but she was released at the end of 2010, a lot of champs had muddled identities and somewhat counterintuitive and/or frustrating kits, at least to a small extent. Anyway, while many of Cassi's fans think of her as a poison mage, and no mistake, I do to as a fellow Cassi fan, but in a more general gameplay sense I think it'd be better to articulate Cassi's problem is that her new 'kit' is extremely stiff and lacks almost all of the dynamics her old kit had when all her spells were relevant. This makes her super predictable and dull to play as I feel because if you can just kill your opponent with Twin Fang all in's, why wouldn't you? And you also have to get in your opponent's face to win trades, thankfully you will most of the time; but that's not good gameplay; where a ranged, squishy mage with a speed boost and a long cooldown ulti for escapes has to get into her opponent's face and hope she outdamages them. If she does, she oppresses them because her damage output is consistent, and if she doesn't, she gets whittled down and smashed because her poke is bad and there's no way she's going to win typical harassment trades unless she's much better than her opponent. That's almost a 'UrExample' of a binary kit. Not to mention her passive is a huge ball of stats, which Riot doesn't like.

It's not that the concept of an AP Hyperscaling marksman is a bad idea. But it's not Cassiopeia's theme, never was, and why should it be? Her old gameplay was a lane bully, nothing of her lore says she should be a 'growing more powerful' champ, and we already have hyperscaling mages in Veigar and Ryze, the latter already filling that DPS space that Stashu wants Cassiopeia to fill. And the way it's delivered now is clunky with massive surges of powerspikes. Not to mention that when you get 500 stacks Cassiopeia's been strong enough for a while; and she has to be because a lot of games she will never reach that point anyways.

I'm trying to be patient with Stashu, most of us are, but it's frustrating that he just drops off for months even though he knows Cassi needs a lot of work. I can't blame the Cassi fans that are being blunt about their discontent; it seems most of what we say, especially criticism, doesn't matter no matter how we say it. But it's not just Stashu's fault, I suppose. I believed him when he said Riot rushed him with the rework, and they accepted it going to live despite how flawed it's design is. Just... sigh. It's all the more irritating when this would have NEVER slid if Cassiopeia was a popular champ. We all want the best for Cassiopeia, is it not fair that Stashu and Riot in general at least CONSIDER what we're saying? :/

On that note, I did try to come up with a general basis for a Cassiopeia revamped kit. It's here if anyone's interested. : http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/nFnehA17-cassiopeia-a-hypothetical-gameplay-update

SmokingPuffin2/27/2015, 5:40:18 PM3 votes

5.4 is a pretty disappointing patch. Instead of finishing the vegetables on their plate, they off and broke open three new packets of food.

I suspect the dumpster fires that are currently Azir, Kassadin, and Veigar are going to keep Riot's design resources busy for 5.5, too. Their Syndra fix doesn't fix her, either.

Something like 15% of the patch content was ready for live servers. Honestly, it's just bad execution, this patch never should have gone live.

Teridax682/27/2015, 8:15:54 PM2 votes

I think there are two things here that need to be said:

  • Cassiopeia feels like she has a pretty big thematic mismatch: everything about her screams poison mage, but the most visible part of her in combat is that she flings her teeth at people.
  • This is not Stashu's fault.

To be clear, Cass never really was a poison mage even before she got reworked: she had the same poisons she has now (in fact, all of her abilities worked in the same way), and her previous passive was a pure self-buff, just like the one she has now. If anything, adding a poison amplifier to her E made her more of a poison mage than she ever was, even if she still isn't quite there. People complain that Stashu ruined her by turning her into Twin Fang Rambo, but that was already a large part of her pre-rework playstyle, even if she could just use her Q to seriously bully people in lane. I definitely think she needs to be a lot more focused on her poison, and would likely be better off if her E got redone into something completely different, but I don't think it's fair to hold Stashu singlehandedly responsible for her current state and overall feel, since despite the rough initial changes (which were likely hurried to fit in with the Shurima update) she's become a better champion than she was before.

With that said, I don't fully agree with her state or her established theme: her new passive is meant to represent Cass "embracing the serpent", but it does so by giving her lots of stats and a bit of sustain. That's not really what a serpent is like, and if there's one thing it should strengthen it should be her poison. I dislike her E, and I think it's redundant when her Q is already a spammable nuke that Cass needs to constantly use while trailing her opponent. There are more interesting ways to reward Cass for maintaining her poison on her enemies, I feel, such as by having her poison damage stack with itself upon repeated application, for example, and I think that focusing her on her poisons would fit even better with a hypercarry playstyle: DoTs are problematic in League because they need to be inflated to feel strong, but if Cass were to go from weak-ish poison with decent nukes in the early game, to decent nukes with massive continuous poison damage in the late-game, she'd always be dealing visible amounts of damage, and so would be able to really have a poison-focused kit and still be healthy.

Lost In Time2/28/2015, 5:14:17 AM1 votes

Did it ever occur to your pea-sized brains that, and this is a quote from Cass' spotlight, HER FUCKING E IS HER MAIN SOURCE OF DAMAGE?

Just because she abused the fact she was a zone mage because she had retarded base damage and AP ratios (like every old Riot creation) doesn't mean that was her intended pattern of play

She also wasn't supposed to have an abusive early game like she previously did - hence her current iteration passive to limit this, and while I don't like it, it's an easy way to limit her while keeping her late game fantasy, akin to Ryze.

But hey, keep downvoting me without replies OP! I can see why Stashu doesn't bother with you lot anymore; fucking infuriating and will downvote anything that doesn't agree "OMG YASS ME NO LIKEY HER E" even though that was her intended way of play since Day 1.