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The PBE Talon Nerfs Are The Wrong Way to Nerf Talon - By a Challenger Talon OTP

Yamikaze··104 votes·22,628 views

Hi, I'm Yamikaze. I have 4k+ games combined on pre-rework and rework Talon since S2 and I was Challenger for 5 months this season. Currently D1 because Talon is straight up broken and perma-banned anywhere above D2 (and probably D5 at this point). After months of waiting, the Talon PBE nerfs are probably the worst nerfs Riot could have implemented. For those who aren't aware, the nerfs are:

Rake (W)

  • damage lowered from 50/65/80/95/110 to 50/60/70/80/90

  • return damage lowered from 70/95/120/145/170 to 70/90/110/130/150

The main problems that make Talon broken in this meta are his insane waveclear with Tiamat (you can literally clear a wave with W-Tiamat-AA-meleeQ, leading to Talon being able to avoid interaction with any mid laner post-Tiamat buy) and his strong early game damage (which used to be balanced by Talon falling off lategame, but in high elo, games no longer go long enough for Talon's weakness to be abused). This nerf seems to be directed at the first problem, waveclear. With damage nerfs at max level W, you can no longer clear caster minions in one W at lvl 9. But the problem is, without being able to 1-shot casters, Talon is forced to build Tiamat to kill the caster wave (which most players already do). And the thing is, for the players who are already building Tiamat, this won't solve a thing. The tiamat active will still kill the caster minions after a W and Talon will still be able to clear a wave with the combo above. The damage nerf to champions is irrelevant as well, as Talon's mid game powerspike allows him to overkill most squishies with one combo, so the 20 damage both ways won't do a thing.

Rather than simply whining and demanding that Riot finds a better solution, I've come up with some recommendations to nerf Talon in a healthier way. Obviously I don't want all of these to be recommended, but I believe that all of them are better than the current nerfs on PBE (which are honestly a joke).

  • NERF HIS Q RANGE. Talon doesn't need a long range on his Q. Its short range before the bug fix was balanced by his insane mobility on E. Can't get in range? Walk out of lane and use your E. Now, since your q range is the same as most mage abilities or adc autos, Talon literally walks up and kills carries with little counterplay because the counterplay of staying out of Talon's q range is no longer a thing. High q range does nothing but lowers Talon's skill floor and makes Talon strong into many matchups where he previously struggled (think champs that could poke him out of his Q range in lane, as they now take Talon's full Q-W-AA rotation when they try).

  • Nerf his base MR. The MR buffs a couple patches ago were designed to help Talon survive in rough lanes with low q range. Now, with the increased Q range and the absence of difficult poke matchups in high elo (Ryze, Azir, Orianna), Talon no longer needs 39 base MR. Combined with a corrupting pot start versus poke or just AP matchups in general, Talon gets a free ticket to his first back, where he picks up Tiamat and can avoid laning versus the enemy laner entirely.

  • Increase his W cd. Although this doesn't solve the problem of Talon insta-clearing waves with Tiamat, it provides a greater window of vulnerability for Talon when he uses W to clear the wave, which is still healthier than the current nerfs (that do straight up nothing to Tiamat buyers).

  • This one may be over the top but, shift some of his early/mid game power to lategame by nerfing his early passive damage and giving his E a passive that gives bonus AD per level (so he remains relevant as he puts points into E, as not getting anything but cdr is one of the main reasons why he falls off so hard lategame). It seems that, with Talon's current state of being broken early and garbage late, he's either gonna be broken when the meta is short games or garbage when the meta is long games.

  • Nerf Tiamat. Perhaps this can be done by increasing the cost or by reverting the +5 AD buff. While I can't make a statement for the other champs that use Tiamat (as I'm a Talon OTP), I think a 1.2k first buy (or 850 if you start long sword) Tiamat results in waveclear that is too easily accessable for melee laners. With the shift away from waveclear mages, perhaps waveclear melees may need a nerf as well.

Hopefully someone at Riot sees this and will reconsider the PBE nerfs :)

92 Comments

webstar199543 votes

"Nerf his base MR. The MR buffs a couple patches ago were designed to help Talon survive in rough lanes with low q range. Now, with the increased Q range and the absence of difficult poke matchups in high elo (Ryze, Azir, Orianna), Talon no longer needs such a high base MR. Combined with a corrupting pot start versus poke or just AP matchups in general, Talon gets a free ticket to his first back, where he picks up Tiamat and can avoid laning versus the enemy laner entirely." This is so true. Also the Tiamat nerf would be good. That's really all he would need to be balanced. Still strong, but balanced.

Whisper8711 votes

I see where you're coming from, but I actually think Riot's approach is mostly correct here. If it were me I would keep the nerf to W they have on the PBE and then also revert the MR buff you mentioned. Here's my reasoning and I think you may agree with it:

Riot has a history of just nerfing things into oblivion with just one change, and usually this comes when you hit champs where it hurts the most. So if Talon is built to 100-0 squishies and snowball, but you reduce his all in pressure either through mobility nerfs or burst combo nerfs, he can very quickly become unplayable. If Talon has a good early game, you want him to snowball and do well, even in wave clear. Nerfing his wave clear from like levels 1-6 in combo with lowering his MR would provide a small window for casters to get a foothold before he really takes off, and his "doing well" in lane is less of a guarantee. To my mind playing an assassin in the mid lane should be kind of like playing against poke comps bot lane. The first few level suck ass, but if you can get 6 without dying or being real far behind you can clap the opponent in an all in.

It's very similar to something I said with Zoe back when everyone was crying about how OP her poke damage was. I said don't nerf her poke damage to champions, that's what she is built to do. If she can't snipe people for 80% hp from long range there's not a point to her because the rest of her kit is mediocre. If you want, nerf her poke damage to minions. If it takes her a extra cast to clear each wave, it limits her poke opportunities in the early game and she'll actually have to look at her mana.

In summary, I think it's a very smart move and a better approach for Riot to not trying and smash down agency of champions to do what they are built to do. Instead making each viable champion less of a generalist is a much better route. Let people do what they want to do with champs, just don't make them able to do everything, keep in mind why they are playing that specific champ and let them run with it, but gate it in other areas.

Another quick example of a good nerf - Orianna having a AOE circle appear during ult cast. Still does all it's damage, but now people have a clearer idea if it's going to hit or not. Makes her less quality in picks/duels/skirmishes, does very little in team fights, which is where she shines. She still feels good to play while having a gate.

Rins Thigh Socks8 votes

Did you know Talon is responsible for first blood in 25% of the games he's played?

On a separate note, this is exactly what I'm thinking. Riot should hit either his waveclear or all in potential early on so that he's not able to roam consistently post-3. The only thing this base damage change really hurts (if barely) is Smite Talon since his waveclear and jungle killing isn't as fast.

And even then that really does nothing, especially since most players don't run Smite.

Kats Pajamas7 votes

the reason talon is responsible for so many first blood is because his combo at level 2 legitimately does more damage than many champions hp, resistance included etc. short of exhaust heal and barrier, there is no counter play.

flash+w+q+auto does 700 raw physical damage, to someone like annie, after sudden impact, she gets 10% reduction, so he deals 630 true damage to her 648 hp(dorans ring), with her last 18 hp he can ignite her for 105 more true damage. But it's not just limited to squishy bullshit either, he can full combo jayce, and he is 3 points shy of combo damage(a minion bolt) of level 2 comboing people as tanky as maokai with 41 start armor. Basically you have to be braum or pyke to lane against his level 2 all in and they only live with 100 hp.

The fact his rank 1 isn't touched makes this nerf barely addressable because talon is still fed before they matter.

Andevar2 votes

This nerf isn't supposed to be about his strong laning phase. New Talon has always had one of the strongest lvl 2 spikes.

What the nerf is addressing is his ability to shove and roam nonstop, which is why his W damage is nerfed at later stages.

Kats Pajamas1 votes

{quoted}

This nerf isn't supposed to be about his strong laning phase. New Talon has always had one of the strongest lvl 2 spikes.

What the nerf is addressing is his ability to shove and roam nonstop, which is why his W damage is nerfed at later stages.

"One of the strongest"

*The Strongest. He can't 1 shot like 6 characters of 137. Needs 0 minions to do this. Best case scenario you flash and live, and lose flash. You will more likely be flashing after electro/ignite has finished you though.

If Talon doesn't get first blood, he doesn't deserve to win. Period. So I'm fine with any nerfs to talon, even though his level 2 is absurd, and the strongest level 2 combo by like almost 200 dmg. You make it sound like he is one of many people that can do this lul. My Katarina level 2 combo does barely 500 damage, with ignite included, pre-mitigation, and she is considered 'second to talon'. No one fucking does close to talons damage, he alone does 700, almost double katarina. Katarina cannot even 1 shot a single person. With a poacher dirk start, she can ALMOST 1 shot Oriana, the single weakest person to her combo. Talon can 1 shot 100+ characters, and katarina is supposedly 'second' to that lmfao. One of many? Who is the others then? There are characters that deal less damage at level 6. Level 6 Nunu full ult with snowball into mitigation is going to deal 475 damage, half of a level 2 talon combo -_-.

level 6 full pantheon combo(including ult, level 3 e) only does 25 more damage than level 2 Talon combo.

ramennoodlez1 votes

I question the validity of your numbers. Talon does not do 700 damage in his full combo, assuming his full combo is double w, ranged q (if you get melee q'd flashed on and you have the reaction time of a snail, then you deserve to get first blooded), electrocute, and auto/bleed, and ignite. That doesn't total up to 700. Did you take account into base armour? Because that alone negates roughly 25% of his damage. Since I main Talon, I've tried to all in the enemy at full hp and they will usually come out alive. So I usually chunk them down to 75%-85% hp depending on how squishy they are(zed at 75%, malz at 85%, then I all in them. Also, take account into potion healing as well. Worst thing you can happen is you overestimate your damage and the enemy leaves with under 10 hp, then you just get tilted.

Kats Pajamas2 votes

"Talon does not do 700 damage in his full combo"

http://plays.tv/video/5b4565b48492369c94/700

"That doesn't total up to 700."

Sudden impact also obviously lowers reduction below 25%, obviously.

ramennoodlez1 votes

Could be potions that stop the first bloods. If you can try level 2 all in against other champions in custom or bots. Could've sworn, just recently I fulled comboed an enemy kayn level 2 when he missed a chunk of hp(had 66%-75%? he was also level 2), and he somehow escaped with ~80 ish hp. Boneplating negated around 50 damage i would say.

Kats Pajamas1 votes

Ok listen, Annie has 10% reduction after sudden impact. This equates to her taking 552 damage from talons 614 damage combo before ignite. She has 647 total hp, and after ignite it does 657. His combo does roughly 101% of her effective hp on paper, so just stop with the BS that he cannot 1 shot people. It LITERALLY does more damage than her hp. You don't have to test it in custom to see this. I've personally 1 shot annie, and many other champions on talon.

All these numbers are rounded down FYI too, the mitigation would be higher than recalculating it off the 100 armor. In other words it's even more than what is above. It's even more than 719 total, that is a rounded down number. This is also all assuming you aren't able to poke before hand, and you only auto her once, if you get 2 autos, or a caster minion hits her, she's absolutely fucked.

ramennoodlez1 votes

On the Talon mains, you can download a damage calculator. I put the stats for level 2 ahri (who doesn't have any shielding), had ignite,sudden impact, and elec and still said i didnt kill her with full combo. I also had 22 bonus ad from runes/longsword.

Titanium Dragon1 votes

Well, it is your own fault, when you play in High Elo and cannot even dodge a single skillshot that hits twice and stays at ground for a little time. Those people do not deserve being even in Gold elo

koshkyra8 votes

Us: Talon can oneshot me at level 2! Nerf him!

Riot: nerfs his lategame W damage

ChaddyFantome7 votes

What they ACTUALLY need to do is remove Electrocute from the game.

Modl Ryden l4 votes

I would have to go with nerfing Tiamat's cost. It's way too easy to build and is very flexible to build with double longsword.

You wanna just wave clear and forgo the serrated dirk? Just buy Tiamat! With just having double longsword it's a 500g build (adding the cost of the long rejuv bead). I'd say up the cost to like 700 or 800g. After all, you can basically sit on the item for when you need to upgrade it. You only really need it for the cost-less cleave active.

A tiamat nerf would also effect the likes of Fiora and Tryndamere who can clear waves instantly when they purchase it as a first item.

Mokuto Bunshi4 votes

"Nerf Tiamat. Perhaps this can be done by increasing the cost or by reverting the +5 AD buff. While I can't make a statement for the other champs that use Tiamat (as I'm a Talon OTP), I think a 1.2k first buy (or 850 if you start long sword) Tiamat results in waveclear that is too easily accessable for melee laners. With the shift away from waveclear mages, perhaps waveclear melees may need a nerf as well."

-_-

I know you are challenger and I am not but in what world you nerf an item that Kled Olaf Trundle Warwick Riven Shen type champs primarily use to nerf an assassin? This change I don't agree with. As to whether they need less waveclear them selves thats another discussion for another time.

Edit: The other suggestions are fine though.

Divewing2 votes

Because those champs (for the most part) don't buy Tiamat then just sit on it.

Those champs it would be a hit only WHILE they have Tiamat. Once they have Hydras its a non-issue.

That DOES solo-target Talon because if he then wanted instant-waveclear, he would be forced to fork out the $$ for it.

Mokuto Bunshi1 votes

But, for example. --->Kled Buys tiamat first or second item, then finishes cleaver and then goes titanic...

The other changes he said make sense to me, isnt that enough?

Packun Flower4 votes

I don't think nerfing Tiamat would be a good solution BUT everything else you said was on par.

I'm not a Talon main nor do I play him but as an Annie main I fight him.. alot, between him, Zed and Yasuo that's almost all i ever see in midlane these days and it sucks.

But out of those 3 I have a particular problem with Talon. Without a doubt he is the best midlane champs in the game. His wave clear is amazing, his damage spike is early and massive at level 2, his roaming and ganks are unmatched. It is never a wrong choice to pick Talon right now.

Anytime I'm laning vs a Talon it usually goes like this.

  • Laning starts. We both farm.
  • Talon hits level 3.
  • Talon leaves, ganks a lane, gets a double kill.
  • Talon comes back to lane a lvl or 2 behind me.
  • Talon still insta kills me with his burst combo.
  • Never see Talon midlane again as he wreaks havoc on every other lane.

This is especially frustrating because you almost always get blamed, but with his roaming so powerful by the time i were to get bot or top to counter roam him the fights already over because his power spike is so early and so high. You can't punish him in lane either because his wave clear is so amazing, he'll have you under turret at level 2.

It's never not a wrong choice to pick him. He does so much so well for so little risk. By the time 10 or 15 mins rolls around Talon is one shotting entire teams and theres nothing you can do to stop him.

He needs nerfs and he needs them badly, but the late game is not his problem its his powerful early game which allows him to get a head with little no risk and no window to punish him.

Fullmetallic3 votes

I agree with everything in this post. Keep on crusading, buddy.

Daddy Ants3 votes
  • Nerf Tiamat? No. Bruisers and Single Target junglers shouldn't have to pay the price because your freelo champion is abusing it.

I'd rather they just -

  • Revert the MR buff
  • Revert the Q range
Andevar2 votes

Talon did not need such a big Q range buff lmao.

575 is just way too much when combined with his E mobility. Honestly, they should've just left it at 475, he was fine back then.

Weiner the Pooh2 votes

Tiamat nerfs would hurt other champs more than it would Talon, primarly top laners who need that for wave clear.

Tundra Hunter2 votes

"shift some of his early/mid game power to lategame"

good luck with that.

Riot balance team logic: Early game is too oppressive? Better nerf late. Warwick

IdveYsUfSK2 votes

The planned nerf is a pretty good nerf. But its a lazy solution. His rake cone radius should be reduced instead. Also with his rake missile speed. It shouldn't even easily hit without even trying to aim. It waveclears way too easily due to how much coverage the skill has.

Dog of Pavlov1 votes

I honestly think if they do an in-between range for his Q and revert his MR buffs he would be fine. That way he has to take more risks and can actually be punished.

Right now trying to play MOST AP mages into Talon is a deathsentence since there is nearly no way to kill him unless he lets you stand there and poke him for free.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Your win condition against talon isn't to kill him though. No mage's win condition against assassins is to go 5/0. It's to go 0/0/0 and then outscale because an Assassin that isn't 5/0 falls off like a brick when teamfights come around.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

It doesn't matter if you don't die to him in lane because he can simply go invade your jungler or bot and get an easy kill there anyways. At the very least he'll push your jungler out of his camps even if he doesn't get a kill on them and that sets your jg way behind the enemy jg.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

Pick Ahri and she's a hard counter to him as he'll never be able to trigger his passive on you once you hit lv6 and have ult.

If he ults you you flash or ult out of it, you still have to more leaps and charm to interrupt his 3 mark combo to make sure he can never get off an autoattack after marking you 3 times and you do a metric ton of damage.

Ahris1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3AfdfpEE,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2018-07-11T05:26:50.396+0000)

Pick Ahri and she's a hard counter to him as he'll never be able to trigger his passive on you once you hit lv6 and have ult.

If he ults you you flash or ult out of it, you still have to more leaps and charm to interrupt his 3 mark combo to make sure he can never get off an autoattack after marking you 3 times and you do a metric ton of damage.

Talon is most strong lvl 2 and most people complain about his pre 6 than his post 6.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

Who cares about his lv2. Unless you're an inting idiot you outrange him so if you play smart and don't try to harass him at lv2 you will never eat a returning W which means he'll never trigger his passive on you.

Just play like a pussy until lv6 and then with lost chapter you will start matching his shove and because you didn't feed him kills. Stay away from walls and he can't ever engage on you without wasting his Q/R which means you can kite him to death with ult. A Talon will never 1v1 a competent Ahri.

Same principle applies to pretty much any limited mana mage after the lost chapter changes even without going against Talon. I get abused as Malzahar pre-6 because his cd's and mana costs are retarded early, but I know that if I don't feed I'll catch back lategame with just as good push and my team contributions as a mage are far superior to that of any assassins assuming bot lane didn't shit the bed and we can all make a strong push on a lane and take towers faster than what any assassin can solo split push.

Ahris1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3AfdfpEE,comment-id=0005000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T17:00:32.443+0000)

Who cares about his lv2. Unless you're an inting idiot you outrange him so if you play smart and don't try to harass him at lv2 you will never eat a returning W which means he'll never trigger his passive on you.

Just play like a pussy until lv6 and then with lost chapter you will start matching his shove and because you didn't feed him kills. Stay away from walls and he can't ever engage on you without wasting his Q/R which means you can kite him to death with ult. A Talon will never 1v1 a competent Ahri.

Same principle applies to pretty much any limited mana mage after the lost chapter changes even without going against Talon. I get abused as Malzahar pre-6 because his cd's and mana costs are retarded early, but I know that if I don't feed I'll catch back lategame with just as good push and my team contributions as a mage are far superior to that of any assassins assuming bot lane didn't shit the bed and we can all make a strong push on a lane and take towers faster than what any assassin can solo split push.

A compenent Talon can easily beat Ahri. You seem to not know why he is so broken even at highelo. Talon has AMAZING roaming potential and AMAZING damage. You playing super scared cannot stop his roam which can start even as early as lvl 3.

Talon can also engage on Ahri by jumping through walls invisible, then it is basically gg for her lol. Ahri also has very high mana cost so not too different from malz.

Lategame mages do make a comeback against talon, but most games are done before that. Most people surrender early game anyway, which makes Talon shine a lot.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

Which is why I told you to stay away from walls in a game with a Talon...it's no different than being next to a wall in a game with a Poppy or Vayne, you will die.

Talon roaming at lv3 is pointless because you can just ping him and at lv3 he will never be able to get a kill bot on a bot lane that wards properly and reacts to pings as he needs his ult to really do tower dives. By that time you'll out CS him and get an exp lead from his wasteful roams.

Of course if your jungler is a shitter and chooses not to buy wards in a game against a Talon to keep him in check from invades, and your botlane doesn't collapse on him when he roams jg, it's a whole other matter. Most jg's can still kill a talon with the aid of a collapsing support.

The best strategy against any Talon and for assassins in general is to not solo shit and keep the jungle warded. Once laning phase is over and you start grouping, the Talon is pretty much useless against any solid frontline. One single good CC completely ruins his all in.

If you want to be even cheesier you can pick a Garen, Darius, Sion, or Malphite midlane into him and after lv6 he will be total garbage unable to do anything in any lane since he can't even counter your roams into jg as a tank with items.

Andevar1 votes

W>Flash>Q>AA

W>Q (Kites W back)>AA

The Q range is so large, he can easily kite back his second W.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

W doesn't matter if it doesn't hit a second time. The moment you flash if she's not a vegetable she'll flash as well so it doesn't matter. Otherwise she can just charm, fire her Q to get herself movement speed and kite back.

I know many midlane mages love to facetank your talon, but a single leap alone won't get you 3 marks unless the opponent is straight up retarded.

Not that it matters because I can go 7/0 in lane as Talon and if bot lane shits the bed I can't carry no matter what if they have some half competent support and toplane.

Andevar1 votes

W>Flash>Q>AA

With flash, there's 0 delay on W and you'll be in range to kite back the W as soon as you flash since you Q right after. Almost 0 reaction time and 3 stacks.

Or throw W, then Q it back, another easy 3 stacks.

And Ahri is not a hard counter. She's not an easy matchup, but she doesn't counter Talon as hard as Orianna or Azir.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

Virtually any good Ahri I've had reacts to a Flash immediately or point blank charms you to delay the burst to get time to get out.

Sure, she's not as oppressive as Orianna (fuck Orianna though, she's oppressive to everyone but Anivia and Zed), but in a teamfight she's just way more useful than you are because her kit allowed her to not feed you in laning phase.

Ahris1 votes

If about Talon, people agree, if about Ahri, y'all lose your minds.

Shablagoo1 votes

No dont nerf tiamat wtf, so many champions need it for wave clear you want the item to be nerfed because one champion abuses it?

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

He needs multiple changes

  1. He has wave clear that is better than Ziggs.
  2. High MR, why?
  3. Q needs range nerf

Oh wait, the OP already said all this. Yet, Riot doesn't listen. HMMM

Jonathan Shooter1 votes

He's an assassin, he has to be dangerous. I'm main Talon and I'm not an immortal god, if you're good you can easily kill me with a strong cc... I don't see the reason for nerfing him.

IceAYon1 votes

the person who posted this is a Talon main who reached Challenger with him and it is pick/ban in high elo.

MaxwellChow1 votes

https://clips.twitch.tv/PoliteDullJalapenoBloodTrail

Talon one trick says balance is not fair LOL

Ramaero1 votes

Looks like they went through with the changes unfortunately, and I agree with the Q nerf and reverting the MR buff you mentioned. I just made a thread on some bigger changes to Talon I thought of via a multitude of tweaks to his abilities, the biggest one being his W, and giving his E a passive. I am curious what you think about it, and if you are willing to give any feedback on it considering even though I am a Talon main like you are and am currently low plat, you're much more experienced and successful with him than I have been.

At least Vision1 votes

I pretty much love the idea 4 and 5 but 1 and 3 are litterly a joke. The solution 2 would be ok too.

Poske1 votes

You are wasting words sadly because Riot doesnt care

As a #1 Le blanc world on both old and reworked one I MADE around 40 threads convincing them not to revert her and also how to nerf her without Ruining what LE BLANC STANDS FOR

They do not care about opinions of the Best X Champion players

They care about opinions of popular casual X champion players like Redmercy, faker, pawn, Perkz, Siv hd and any other casual Subpar Le blanc player

Siv hd was thrilled about the revert, he visited this shithole of a game for what? a week or two? Faker still cant play any Le blanc iteration smoothly yet people are in awww no matter how many missplays in 5 seconds he does with her, same is with every lcs PRO

Your thread is well written but you are talking to a wall. Save your own sanity and energy and dont talk to a wall.

JoshTGW1 votes

Talon just needs a nerf to his damage and his ultimate ability, if he has one.

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