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The PBE Talon Nerfs Are The Wrong Way to Nerf Talon - By a Challenger Talon OTP

Yamikaze·7/10/2018, 5:13:11 PM·104 votes·22,628 views

Hi, I'm Yamikaze. I have 4k+ games combined on pre-rework and rework Talon since S2 and I was Challenger for 5 months this season. Currently D1 because Talon is straight up broken and perma-banned anywhere above D2 (and probably D5 at this point). After months of waiting, the Talon PBE nerfs are probably the worst nerfs Riot could have implemented. For those who aren't aware, the nerfs are:

Rake (W)

  • damage lowered from 50/65/80/95/110 to 50/60/70/80/90

  • return damage lowered from 70/95/120/145/170 to 70/90/110/130/150

The main problems that make Talon broken in this meta are his insane waveclear with Tiamat (you can literally clear a wave with W-Tiamat-AA-meleeQ, leading to Talon being able to avoid interaction with any mid laner post-Tiamat buy) and his strong early game damage (which used to be balanced by Talon falling off lategame, but in high elo, games no longer go long enough for Talon's weakness to be abused). This nerf seems to be directed at the first problem, waveclear. With damage nerfs at max level W, you can no longer clear caster minions in one W at lvl 9. But the problem is, without being able to 1-shot casters, Talon is forced to build Tiamat to kill the caster wave (which most players already do). And the thing is, for the players who are already building Tiamat, this won't solve a thing. The tiamat active will still kill the caster minions after a W and Talon will still be able to clear a wave with the combo above. The damage nerf to champions is irrelevant as well, as Talon's mid game powerspike allows him to overkill most squishies with one combo, so the 20 damage both ways won't do a thing.

Rather than simply whining and demanding that Riot finds a better solution, I've come up with some recommendations to nerf Talon in a healthier way. Obviously I don't want all of these to be recommended, but I believe that all of them are better than the current nerfs on PBE (which are honestly a joke).

  • NERF HIS Q RANGE. Talon doesn't need a long range on his Q. Its short range before the bug fix was balanced by his insane mobility on E. Can't get in range? Walk out of lane and use your E. Now, since your q range is the same as most mage abilities or adc autos, Talon literally walks up and kills carries with little counterplay because the counterplay of staying out of Talon's q range is no longer a thing. High q range does nothing but lowers Talon's skill floor and makes Talon strong into many matchups where he previously struggled (think champs that could poke him out of his Q range in lane, as they now take Talon's full Q-W-AA rotation when they try).

  • Nerf his base MR. The MR buffs a couple patches ago were designed to help Talon survive in rough lanes with low q range. Now, with the increased Q range and the absence of difficult poke matchups in high elo (Ryze, Azir, Orianna), Talon no longer needs 39 base MR. Combined with a corrupting pot start versus poke or just AP matchups in general, Talon gets a free ticket to his first back, where he picks up Tiamat and can avoid laning versus the enemy laner entirely.

  • Increase his W cd. Although this doesn't solve the problem of Talon insta-clearing waves with Tiamat, it provides a greater window of vulnerability for Talon when he uses W to clear the wave, which is still healthier than the current nerfs (that do straight up nothing to Tiamat buyers).

  • This one may be over the top but, shift some of his early/mid game power to lategame by nerfing his early passive damage and giving his E a passive that gives bonus AD per level (so he remains relevant as he puts points into E, as not getting anything but cdr is one of the main reasons why he falls off so hard lategame). It seems that, with Talon's current state of being broken early and garbage late, he's either gonna be broken when the meta is short games or garbage when the meta is long games.

  • Nerf Tiamat. Perhaps this can be done by increasing the cost or by reverting the +5 AD buff. While I can't make a statement for the other champs that use Tiamat (as I'm a Talon OTP), I think a 1.2k first buy (or 850 if you start long sword) Tiamat results in waveclear that is too easily accessable for melee laners. With the shift away from waveclear mages, perhaps waveclear melees may need a nerf as well.

Hopefully someone at Riot sees this and will reconsider the PBE nerfs :)

92 Comments

webstar19957/10/2018, 5:20:24 PM43 votes

"Nerf his base MR. The MR buffs a couple patches ago were designed to help Talon survive in rough lanes with low q range. Now, with the increased Q range and the absence of difficult poke matchups in high elo (Ryze, Azir, Orianna), Talon no longer needs such a high base MR. Combined with a corrupting pot start versus poke or just AP matchups in general, Talon gets a free ticket to his first back, where he picks up Tiamat and can avoid laning versus the enemy laner entirely." This is so true. Also the Tiamat nerf would be good. That's really all he would need to be balanced. Still strong, but balanced.

Whisper877/10/2018, 5:35:14 PM11 votes

I see where you're coming from, but I actually think Riot's approach is mostly correct here. If it were me I would keep the nerf to W they have on the PBE and then also revert the MR buff you mentioned. Here's my reasoning and I think you may agree with it:

Riot has a history of just nerfing things into oblivion with just one change, and usually this comes when you hit champs where it hurts the most. So if Talon is built to 100-0 squishies and snowball, but you reduce his all in pressure either through mobility nerfs or burst combo nerfs, he can very quickly become unplayable. If Talon has a good early game, you want him to snowball and do well, even in wave clear. Nerfing his wave clear from like levels 1-6 in combo with lowering his MR would provide a small window for casters to get a foothold before he really takes off, and his "doing well" in lane is less of a guarantee. To my mind playing an assassin in the mid lane should be kind of like playing against poke comps bot lane. The first few level suck ass, but if you can get 6 without dying or being real far behind you can clap the opponent in an all in.

It's very similar to something I said with Zoe back when everyone was crying about how OP her poke damage was. I said don't nerf her poke damage to champions, that's what she is built to do. If she can't snipe people for 80% hp from long range there's not a point to her because the rest of her kit is mediocre. If you want, nerf her poke damage to minions. If it takes her a extra cast to clear each wave, it limits her poke opportunities in the early game and she'll actually have to look at her mana.

In summary, I think it's a very smart move and a better approach for Riot to not trying and smash down agency of champions to do what they are built to do. Instead making each viable champion less of a generalist is a much better route. Let people do what they want to do with champs, just don't make them able to do everything, keep in mind why they are playing that specific champ and let them run with it, but gate it in other areas.

Another quick example of a good nerf - Orianna having a AOE circle appear during ult cast. Still does all it's damage, but now people have a clearer idea if it's going to hit or not. Makes her less quality in picks/duels/skirmishes, does very little in team fights, which is where she shines. She still feels good to play while having a gate.

Rins Thigh Socks7/10/2018, 6:45:14 PM8 votes

Did you know Talon is responsible for first blood in 25% of the games he's played?

On a separate note, this is exactly what I'm thinking. Riot should hit either his waveclear or all in potential early on so that he's not able to roam consistently post-3. The only thing this base damage change really hurts (if barely) is Smite Talon since his waveclear and jungle killing isn't as fast.

And even then that really does nothing, especially since most players don't run Smite.

koshkyra7/10/2018, 9:33:31 PM8 votes

Us: Talon can oneshot me at level 2! Nerf him!

Riot: nerfs his lategame W damage

ChaddyFantome7/10/2018, 6:02:25 PM7 votes

What they ACTUALLY need to do is remove Electrocute from the game.

Modl Ryden l7/10/2018, 6:35:32 PM4 votes

I would have to go with nerfing Tiamat's cost. It's way too easy to build and is very flexible to build with double longsword.

You wanna just wave clear and forgo the serrated dirk? Just buy Tiamat! With just having double longsword it's a 500g build (adding the cost of the long rejuv bead). I'd say up the cost to like 700 or 800g. After all, you can basically sit on the item for when you need to upgrade it. You only really need it for the cost-less cleave active.

A tiamat nerf would also effect the likes of Fiora and Tryndamere who can clear waves instantly when they purchase it as a first item.

Mokuto Bunshi7/10/2018, 7:49:13 PM4 votes

"Nerf Tiamat. Perhaps this can be done by increasing the cost or by reverting the +5 AD buff. While I can't make a statement for the other champs that use Tiamat (as I'm a Talon OTP), I think a 1.2k first buy (or 850 if you start long sword) Tiamat results in waveclear that is too easily accessable for melee laners. With the shift away from waveclear mages, perhaps waveclear melees may need a nerf as well."

-_-

I know you are challenger and I am not but in what world you nerf an item that Kled Olaf Trundle Warwick Riven Shen type champs primarily use to nerf an assassin? This change I don't agree with. As to whether they need less waveclear them selves thats another discussion for another time.

Edit: The other suggestions are fine though.

Packun Flower7/10/2018, 8:57:27 PM4 votes

I don't think nerfing Tiamat would be a good solution BUT everything else you said was on par.

I'm not a Talon main nor do I play him but as an Annie main I fight him.. alot, between him, Zed and Yasuo that's almost all i ever see in midlane these days and it sucks.

But out of those 3 I have a particular problem with Talon. Without a doubt he is the best midlane champs in the game. His wave clear is amazing, his damage spike is early and massive at level 2, his roaming and ganks are unmatched. It is never a wrong choice to pick Talon right now.

Anytime I'm laning vs a Talon it usually goes like this.

  • Laning starts. We both farm.
  • Talon hits level 3.
  • Talon leaves, ganks a lane, gets a double kill.
  • Talon comes back to lane a lvl or 2 behind me.
  • Talon still insta kills me with his burst combo.
  • Never see Talon midlane again as he wreaks havoc on every other lane.

This is especially frustrating because you almost always get blamed, but with his roaming so powerful by the time i were to get bot or top to counter roam him the fights already over because his power spike is so early and so high. You can't punish him in lane either because his wave clear is so amazing, he'll have you under turret at level 2.

It's never not a wrong choice to pick him. He does so much so well for so little risk. By the time 10 or 15 mins rolls around Talon is one shotting entire teams and theres nothing you can do to stop him.

He needs nerfs and he needs them badly, but the late game is not his problem its his powerful early game which allows him to get a head with little no risk and no window to punish him.

Daddy Ants7/11/2018, 10:58:25 AM3 votes
  • Nerf Tiamat? No. Bruisers and Single Target junglers shouldn't have to pay the price because your freelo champion is abusing it.

I'd rather they just -

  • Revert the MR buff
  • Revert the Q range
Fullmetallic7/10/2018, 5:24:37 PM3 votes

I agree with everything in this post. Keep on crusading, buddy.

Tundra Hunter7/11/2018, 7:57:25 AM2 votes

"shift some of his early/mid game power to lategame"

good luck with that.

Riot balance team logic: Early game is too oppressive? Better nerf late. Warwick

Andevar7/10/2018, 8:39:54 PM2 votes

Talon did not need such a big Q range buff lmao.

575 is just way too much when combined with his E mobility. Honestly, they should've just left it at 475, he was fine back then.

Weiner the Pooh7/11/2018, 1:38:07 AM2 votes

Tiamat nerfs would hurt other champs more than it would Talon, primarly top laners who need that for wave clear.

IdveYsUfSK7/11/2018, 8:14:51 AM2 votes

The planned nerf is a pretty good nerf. But its a lazy solution. His rake cone radius should be reduced instead. Also with his rake missile speed. It shouldn't even easily hit without even trying to aim. It waveclears way too easily due to how much coverage the skill has.

JoshTGW10/11/2019, 7:52:00 PM1 votes

Talon just needs a nerf to his damage and his ultimate ability, if he has one.

Dog of Pavlov7/10/2018, 6:14:36 PM1 votes

I honestly think if they do an in-between range for his Q and revert his MR buffs he would be fine. That way he has to take more risks and can actually be punished.

Right now trying to play MOST AP mages into Talon is a deathsentence since there is nearly no way to kill him unless he lets you stand there and poke him for free.

Ahris7/11/2018, 4:19:02 AM1 votes

If about Talon, people agree, if about Ahri, y'all lose your minds.

Shablagoo7/11/2018, 9:58:21 AM1 votes

No dont nerf tiamat wtf, so many champions need it for wave clear you want the item to be nerfed because one champion abuses it?

xJLx MCHammer7/12/2018, 4:10:38 AM1 votes

He needs multiple changes

  1. He has wave clear that is better than Ziggs.
  2. High MR, why?
  3. Q needs range nerf

Oh wait, the OP already said all this. Yet, Riot doesn't listen. HMMM

Jonathan Shooter7/14/2018, 8:08:59 AM1 votes

He's an assassin, he has to be dangerous. I'm main Talon and I'm not an immortal god, if you're good you can easily kill me with a strong cc... I don't see the reason for nerfing him.

MaxwellChow7/14/2018, 11:49:20 PM1 votes

https://clips.twitch.tv/PoliteDullJalapenoBloodTrail

Talon one trick says balance is not fair LOL

Ramaero7/18/2018, 11:42:36 AM1 votes

Looks like they went through with the changes unfortunately, and I agree with the Q nerf and reverting the MR buff you mentioned. I just made a thread on some bigger changes to Talon I thought of via a multitude of tweaks to his abilities, the biggest one being his W, and giving his E a passive. I am curious what you think about it, and if you are willing to give any feedback on it considering even though I am a Talon main like you are and am currently low plat, you're much more experienced and successful with him than I have been.

At least Vision2/28/2019, 3:26:58 PM1 votes

I pretty much love the idea 4 and 5 but 1 and 3 are litterly a joke. The solution 2 would be ok too.

Poske2/28/2019, 3:34:08 PM1 votes

You are wasting words sadly because Riot doesnt care

As a #1 Le blanc world on both old and reworked one I MADE around 40 threads convincing them not to revert her and also how to nerf her without Ruining what LE BLANC STANDS FOR

They do not care about opinions of the Best X Champion players

They care about opinions of popular casual X champion players like Redmercy, faker, pawn, Perkz, Siv hd and any other casual Subpar Le blanc player

Siv hd was thrilled about the revert, he visited this shithole of a game for what? a week or two? Faker still cant play any Le blanc iteration smoothly yet people are in awww no matter how many missplays in 5 seconds he does with her, same is with every lcs PRO

Your thread is well written but you are talking to a wall. Save your own sanity and energy and dont talk to a wall.