Is it just me, or does build diversity suck?

puśsý·Sep 15, 2019·68 votes·17,267 views

AD assassins pretty much build the same thing every game. Most mages go ludens, zhonyas, morellos, void, and deathcap. Ocassionally you'll see a GLP, protobelt or liandries on specific champs. Jax's first 4 items are always the same (tri,spear,titanic,steraks). Then he chooses either wits/randiuns/ga last, depending on the sitaution. Darius and garen really only choose between building triforce or black cleaver.

I just feel like the game doesn't give you much room to be experimental with your builds.

88 Comments

Emperor TalquinSep 15, 201930 votes

True.

There are some champs like Riven and kai'sa etc who have too much diversity. But the majority of champs build the same items every game.

BârdSep 15, 20192 votes

Kai'sa is definitely a bit overpowered right now, but she definitely doesn't have "Too much diversity".

The vast majority of the roster has an unacceptable level of item diversity.

Kai'sa has a decent amount of item diversity, and honestly the target level of build diversity for practically every champion should be slightly above Kai'sa.

puśsýSep 15, 20198 votes

{quoted}

Kai'sa is definitely a bit overpowered right now, but she definitely doesn't have "Too much diversity".

The vast majority of the roster has an unacceptable level of item diversity.

Kai'sa has a decent amount of item diversity, and honestly the target level of build diversity for practically every champion should be slightly above Kai'sa.

Compared to any other adc and champion, kai'sa's item pool is extremely diverse.

However, I agree that the target item diversity should be above that of kai'sa's.

BârdSep 15, 20197 votes

Remember when you could pick up a casual tank item on ADC and it wasn't troll?

WTBeGirl100EUhrSep 16, 20192 votes

https://i.imgur.com/qqh09x7.png

If you have Legend: Bloodline you can definitely still pick up a tank item on an ADC if it's very efficient in that game. Even without you can probably go for a tank item over a second zeal item and buy lifesteal.

The reason we won this game is that I was too difficult for the enemy team to kill, whereas Xayah (who was also full build, notice) got blown up by Malph + J4.

ŚhunpoSep 16, 20193 votes

Kai'sa can go AD, crit, AP and hybrid. That's worse than a "decent amount of item diversity".

Oh, and she's more than "a bit overpowered right now", she's an abomination who evades the nerf hammer only due to her receiving a plethora of skins each and every 2 patches.

BârdSep 16, 20191 votes

Her build fluctuates a lot between patches, but she tends to be locked into the exact same build every build every patch.

ŚhunpoSep 16, 20191 votes

Nah, atm she can go all of them.

BârdSep 16, 20192 votes

Not really.

Kai'sa has a ton of builds that are "not incorrect", but she only has one each patch that is really "correct".

What makes her so good is that there's never going to be a patch where she doesn't have a good build.

She's a lot like Ezreal in that sense.

puśsýSep 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Kai'sa can go AD, crit, AP and hybrid. That's worse than a "decent amount of item diversity".

Oh, and she's more than "a bit overpowered right now", she's an abomination who evades the nerf hammer only due to her receiving a plethora of skins each and every 2 patches.

idk why you are being downvoted, kaisa has the highest item diversity.

ŚhunpoSep 16, 20191 votes

I got downvoted by people who think that I'm even partially incorrect, and like to believe that only 2 builds are viable for Kai'sa, despite one tricks coming into the mix and proving everyone wrong.

puśsýSep 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I got downvoted by people who think that I'm even partially incorrect, and like to believe that only 2 builds are viable for Kai'sa, despite one tricks coming into the mix and proving everyone wrong.

Kai'sa's diversity is what makes so strong. She is able to adapt to different situations. She can build both zhonyas and ga.

SaezioSep 15, 201917 votes

You can be experimental. But it will not be as effective as the meta build.

TerozuSep 15, 20194 votes

Hence "most effective tactic available".

WTBeGirl100EUhrSep 16, 20192 votes

This is weird myth. Meta does not stand for "most effective tactic available" and is not directly linked to how powerful something is but rather how popular something is.

The word "meta" is derived from the phrase "metagaming" which is to do with using information from outside of the game to get an advantage in game. The prefix "meta" is a greek word meaning "higher" or "beyond" and is used to mean "change". In other words, the phrase "metagame" refers to how the game changes (and is thus mostly to do with popularity rather than power), with the "current" metagame essentially referring to whatever is most popular.

Generally whatever is perceived as strongest will be popular, but in league this is often not the case when it comes to champion pickrates. As such, some champions, such as Riven, Yasuo, Thresh and Ahri will always be "meta" even if they're nerfed to the point where they completely suck.

Z3SIeeperSep 17, 20191 votes

There's multiple definitions that are deviations of the original. Words are evolving things and can take on new meanings as time goes on and they become redefined.

Meta's standard definition is basically something referring to itself. A metajoke is a joke about jokes. Metagaming is gaming using knowledge of things outside your character's "knowledge" to gain an advantage (referring to RPG's).

Meta has taken on a new meaning more recently in gaming culture meaning the most effective tactic available. It's more of an acronym than the true word "meta". This isn't just because we tacked on a new meaning to the word though, as it actually derives from the base definition. The metagame is like a secondary game that revolves the game itself (basically a strategizing game that exists outside the game itself that searches for and defines the most effective tactic available, which can be redefined as a game referring to the game and thus it is meta by the standard definition).

Whenever you hear someone talking about the meta of a game, they are 99% of the time referring to this new definition of what the best tactics are.

boricCentaur1Sep 15, 20196 votes

Assassins have limited items and mages have good items that over shadow over others.

Bruisers are different in builds but jax builds close to the same every game and irelia builds different then jax but builds similar items every game.

I want more items that do less general we need more stuff like item 3152 and nerfs to general items.

The23rdGamerSep 15, 20195 votes

Some champions have multiple build paths enabled by their kit, but people also complain about said champs because when they get out of check having multiple different ways they can build can be even more frustrating because it makes champions feel like good picks into even more game situations than normal.

Examples (I'll try to list them in relatively decreasing popularity): Ahri Full AP / Glacial / AD Alistar Utility Tank / Full AP Amumu Tank / AP Ashe AD (with multiple meta AD builds) / Full AP R Spam Blitzcrank Utility Tank / Full AP / Full AD Chogath Tank / Full AP / Glacial Diana Burst Glass-Cannon Assassin / Tanky AP Bruiser Ezreal Full AD / Full AP (not to mention single handedly breaking tear itemization) Galio Tank / AP Gragas Tank / AP Janna Shield Utility / Full AP JarvanIV Full AD / Full Tank / AP "Support" Kaisa Basically the current definition of abusing hybrid scaling and build paths Karma Shield-Bot / Full AP / Tank (not to mention she is partially responsible for breaking Spellthief's gold generation passive) Kayn Bruiser / Lethality-Assassin (By Design of Blue vs Red Kayn) Kennen AP Kennen / AD Kennen KogMaw AD Kog'Maw / AP Kog'Maw Malphite Full Tank / Full AP Maokai Full Tank / Full AP (frequently goes somewhere in the middle though cause he's in an awful spot atm) MissFortune Crit / Lethality / Full AP Nasus Tank / Full AP / Full AD Nautilus Tank / Full AP Neeko Full AP / Glacial / On-Hit Pantheon Lethality / Crit / AP Pyke Lethality / Tank Qiyana Lethality / Bruiser Quinn Lethality / Crit Rakan Utility-Tank / AP Shaco AP / Lethality Shen Full Tank / Bruiser Shyvana Full Tank / Full AP / Full AD Sion Full Tank / Lethality Skarner Tank / Brusier Sona Shield Utility / Full AP Soraka Shield Utility / Full AP Sylas Full AP / AP Bruiser TahmKench Utility-Tank / Bruiser Taric Utility-Tank / AD Thresh Utility-Tank / Crit (with oneshot and DPS alternatives) / AP TwistedFate Full AP / Full AD Varus Full AD / Full Lethality Veigar Full AP / Glacial / Tank (via Passive Scaling for all necessary AP) Velkoz Full AP / Glacial Viktor Full AP / Tank Warwick AD / Tank / AP MonkeyKing Lethality / Brusier Xerath Full AP / Glacial Zac Tank / AP

And I'm sure there's some I missed (for example, I didn't count starting with a support item different than starting with doran's ring or corrupting pot)

Now I know that's only 48 Champions out of the 145 currently in the game, but that's still a third of all champions where I could quickly come up with multiple significantly different builds for them.

I agree some champions going for the same core items every game is dull (for example nearly every AP threat rushes Lost Chapter instead of Morellonomicon like they used to before the work in Season 8) but at least there's a substantial subsection of champions that can adapt their build and runes to multiple game situations, even if they'll likely be following the "core items" mentality once they've decided what playstyle they're going to go for that game (for example AP Malphite is almost certainly going to rush Luden's Echo or Runic Echos every time, despite that build differing from his normal Full Tank build).

puśsýSep 15, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Some champions have multiple build paths enabled by their kit, but people also complain about said champs because when they get out of check having multiple different ways they can build can be even more frustrating because it makes champions feel like good picks into even more game situations than normal.

Examples (I'll try to list them in relatively decreasing popularity): Full AP / Glacial / AD Utility Tank / Full AP Tank / AP AD (with multiple meta AD builds) / Full AP R Spam Utility Tank / Full AP / Full AD Tank / Full AP / Glacial Burst Glass-Cannon Assassin / Tanky AP Bruiser Full AD / Full AP (not to mention single handedly breaking tear itemization) Tank / AP Tank / AP Shield Utility / Full AP Full AD / Full Tank / AP "Support" Basically the current definition of abusing hybrid scaling and build paths Shield-Bot / Full AP / Tank (not to mention she is partially responsible for breaking Spellthief's gold generation passive) Bruiser / Lethality-Assassin (By Design of Blue vs Red Kayn) AP Kennen / AD Kennen AD Kog'Maw / AP Kog'Maw Full Tank / Full AP Full Tank / Full AP (frequently goes somewhere in the middle though cause he's in an awful spot atm) Crit / Lethality / Full AP Tank / Full AP / Full AD Tank / Full AP Full AP / Glacial / On-Hit Lethality / Crit / AP Lethality / Tank Lethality / Bruiser Lethality / Crit Utility-Tank / AP AP / Lethality Full Tank / Bruiser Full Tank / Full AP / Full AD Full Tank / Lethality Tank / Brusier Shield Utility / Full AP Shield Utility / Full AP Full AP / AP Bruiser Utility-Tank / Bruiser Utility-Tank / AD Utility-Tank / Crit (with oneshot and DPS alternatives) / AP Full AP / Full AD Full AD / Full Lethality Full AP / Glacial / Tank (via Passive Scaling for all necessary AP) Full AP / Glacial Full AP / Tank AD / Tank / AP Lethality / Brusier Full AP / Glacial Tank / AP

And I'm sure there's some I missed (for example, I didn't count starting with a support item different than starting with doran's ring or corrupting pot)

Now I know that's only 48 Champions out of the 145 currently in the game, but that's still a third of all champions where I could quickly come up with multiple significantly different builds for them.

I agree some champions going for the same core items every game is dull (for example nearly every AP threat rushes Lost Chapter instead of Morellonomicon like they used to before the work in Season 8) but at least there's a substantial subsection of champions that can adapt their build and runes to multiple game situations, even if they'll likely be following the "core items" mentality once they've decided what playstyle they're going to go for that game (for example AP Malphite is almost certainly going to rush Luden's Echo or Runic Echos every time, despite that build differing from his normal Full Tank build).

How often do you see the examples you've given?

The23rdGamerSep 15, 20193 votes

{quoted}

How often do you see the examples you've given?

I'm not sure how to apply a metric to that, but I would argue saying that I see at least a couple of these a week would be on the low end (And that doesn't include the builds that I'm running because I imagine you're going to argue those not counting for whatever reason).

Keep in mind some of these builds might be more common in one area of play than another. For example the Glacial Neeko was fairly common in Professional Play (though I do frequently see it in my games as well) and some builds are more common on ARAM than on Summoner's Rift, at least from the small sample size that is my games played per patch vs the games everyone plays per patch.

I will say I've seen each of those builds that I listed at least once during this Season (except for AD Ahri which I haven't seen since the middle of Season 8) in one of my games personally, but I'm sure it exists elsewhere.

MasterDCloneSep 16, 20192 votes

quite a bit actually

NoizyBoiiSep 16, 20191 votes

you forgot: Riven Bruiser/Assassin/Crit Akali Mage/Bruiser

The23rdGamerSep 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

you forgot: Bruiser/Assassin/Crit Mage/Bruiser

That's fair. Like I said I'm sure I didn't list every champion with a somewhat popular alternate build style.

LovelleSep 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Some champions have multiple build paths enabled by their kit, but people also complain about said champs because when they get out of check having multiple different ways they can build can be even more frustrating because it makes champions feel like good picks into even more game situations than normal.

Examples (I'll try to list them in relatively decreasing popularity): Full AP / Glacial / AD Utility Tank / Full AP Tank / AP AD (with multiple meta AD builds) / Full AP R Spam Utility Tank / Full AP / Full AD Tank / Full AP / Glacial Burst Glass-Cannon Assassin / Tanky AP Bruiser Full AD / Full AP (not to mention single handedly breaking tear itemization) Tank / AP Tank / AP Shield Utility / Full AP Full AD / Full Tank / AP "Support" Basically the current definition of abusing hybrid scaling and build paths Shield-Bot / Full AP / Tank (not to mention she is partially responsible for breaking Spellthief's gold generation passive) Bruiser / Lethality-Assassin (By Design of Blue vs Red Kayn) AP Kennen / AD Kennen AD Kog'Maw / AP Kog'Maw Full Tank / Full AP Full Tank / Full AP (frequently goes somewhere in the middle though cause he's in an awful spot atm) Crit / Lethality / Full AP Tank / Full AP / Full AD Tank / Full AP Full AP / Glacial / On-Hit Lethality / Crit / AP Lethality / Tank Lethality / Bruiser Lethality / Crit Utility-Tank / AP AP / Lethality Full Tank / Bruiser Full Tank / Full AP / Full AD Full Tank / Lethality Tank / Brusier Shield Utility / Full AP Shield Utility / Full AP Full AP / AP Bruiser Utility-Tank / Bruiser Utility-Tank / AD Utility-Tank / Crit (with oneshot and DPS alternatives) / AP Full AP / Full AD Full AD / Full Lethality Full AP / Glacial / Tank (via Passive Scaling for all necessary AP) Full AP / Glacial Full AP / Tank AD / Tank / AP Lethality / Brusier Full AP / Glacial Tank / AP

And I'm sure there's some I missed (for example, I didn't count starting with a support item different than starting with doran's ring or corrupting pot)

Now I know that's only 48 Champions out of the 145 currently in the game, but that's still a third of all champions where I could quickly come up with multiple significantly different builds for them.

I agree some champions going for the same core items every game is dull (for example nearly every AP threat rushes Lost Chapter instead of Morellonomicon like they used to before the work in Season 8) but at least there's a substantial subsection of champions that can adapt their build and runes to multiple game situations, even if they'll likely be following the "core items" mentality once they've decided what playstyle they're going to go for that game (for example AP Malphite is almost certainly going to rush Luden's Echo or Runic Echos every time, despite that build differing from his normal Full Tank build).

Shyv never goes full AD. These days she builds AP, but she can also go tanky (this build is dead), attack speed/on-hit or a combination of the two.

TF probably has the most variety in build paths out of everyone on that list. There's just no point in doing anything other than the AP build for the most part.

EDIT: I forgot Sion can be built in several ways as well.

MasterDCloneSep 16, 20191 votes

i actually play against ad shyv more than you would expect, i don't know why people dont always build her ap but the ratio is see ad to ap is like 50/50

True GarenSep 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Some champions have multiple build paths enabled by their kit, but people also complain about said champs because when they get out of check having multiple different ways they can build can be even more frustrating because it makes champions feel like good picks into even more game situations than normal.

Examples (I'll try to list them in relatively decreasing popularity):

Now I know that's only 48 Champions out of the 145 currently in the game, but that's still a third of all champions where I could quickly come up with multiple significantly different builds for them.

Garen is probably in the top %10 when it comes to build diversity.

Yet, it was decided that he doesn't currently have enough build options, so they plan to give him AS scaling, as well.

Power CosmicSep 15, 20195 votes

Build diversity sucks because champs are mostly pingeon-holed.

Udyr Ekko Skarner RekSai can be built different ways

IllabetheSep 15, 20193 votes

It's generally true that Assassins have been modeled to only build one way. Mages however almost never build the exact same way, unless they are some meta chum who generally doesn't adapt game to game. If you attempt the Luden's path every game, you will lose more than your champion's average, because many games are simply about surviving and adapting. (This is why a lot of Zyra's complain about her being weak, even though if they would just adapt their builds, they'd discover she can kite very well and do more than just attempt a 1 shot suicide). Fighters do adapt, although they do have 2 item cores.

King BraumSep 15, 20193 votes

I feel like mages have it the worst, the majority simply builds the same items and uses the same runes with only minor difference.

BugogSep 15, 20192 votes

Try building a support tank. They don't even have a good first item.

Emperor TalquinSep 18, 20191 votes

I think what would help mages with that problem is if they take some power out the top tier items like morello and ludens.

GigglesOSep 15, 20193 votes

Riot wanted to lower the skill of the game.

They did that with builds.

ThunderneedleSep 15, 20193 votes

Yes and they actively removed it from champs who had options.

2kewl4lifeSep 16, 20192 votes

Shaco

Malix FarwinSep 18, 20192 votes

Yea but i am too afraid for riot to change things, they usually make things worse.

KeiagaSep 15, 20191 votes

The majority of champs have a lot of different builds but there can always be one single META build that everyone is going to copy.

ArtumisPrimeSep 16, 20191 votes

By that logic there are a ludicrous number of options for every champion. You could even build AP Garen and say it's a reasonable build path. If something is vastly stronger than the rest, then the rest aren't exactly optional builds in a competitive environment. Do whatever the hell you want in normal games, but in high tier ranked, those "different builds" usually aren't viable, and as such don't REALLY exist as options.

MasterDCloneSep 17, 20191 votes

the thing about ap garen is that he doesn't at all benefit from ap items so it is completely pointless to build him so. Now the meta build on garen is tank but you can also go crit and/or lethality which can work situationally. but the optimal strategy will always be the most played but hte others are still optional and viable

True GarenSep 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

the thing about ap garen is that he doesn't at all benefit from ap items so it is completely pointless to build him so. Now the meta build on garen is tank but you can also go crit and/or lethality which can work situationally. but the optimal strategy will always be the most played but hte others are still optional and viable

Crit and Lethality haven't really been good options on Garen since Runes Reforged. Now that I think about, Runes Reforged killed a lot of builds (crit and lethality being the most prominent).

Build diversity is also expressed by the order in which items are built. The most powerful build for Garen for a good part of last year was TF>Steraks>DMP. When Sterak's was changed, the TF>Steraks rush was also gone. Sterak's is still made, but usually 3rd item.

sp441Sep 16, 20191 votes

Because there's no real alternatives to the established big daddy items.

You're a Marksman and want to deal tons of damage? Buy an Infinity Edge. You're a Mage who wants to deal tons of damage? Buy a Rabbadon.

Funnily enough, despite everybody complaining about how high damage is, defensive items are a lot better in terms of diversity, because there's a lot more of them with perfectly viable use cases.

Y'now what I miss? Black Market Brawlers. Not because of the gimmicky minions, but because of all the new items that all had their own cool, unique effects that all opened up all sorts of cool build possibilities. Defensive Support who wants to take it to the limit? Martyr's Gambit. Wanna roam like a motherfucker? Staff of Flowing Water. Wanna really piss off an enemy Katarina? Use Puppeteer.

I'm still frustrated to this day that the only item that got fully implemented from them was Dead Man's Plate. Aside from Lost Chapter and Globe of Trust's icon, I guess, which got used for a much more underwhelming item because it was made to compete with a item with a much more wide use case basis.

OgScSep 16, 20191 votes

A Jax would only go 4 HP and AD items if he was uber fed. No way in this world would a Jax build that if he was behind or even.

XenuOneSep 16, 20191 votes

You techinically can build almost any item you want on your champion. They might not be optimal though.

The DrBonjigolloSep 16, 20191 votes

I feel like the main concern with giving assassins variety in their builds is that non-assassins can also build and abuse their items, which causes the non-assassin champions to get nerfed for months of outrage until the items themselves get nerfed and become useless and then we're back to the basic build.

For example when Duskblade first came out and lethality was introduced everybody used it and could do well, Jhin MissFortune Varus and even some ap champs if i recall correctly Fizz . This still stands though and is still a problem, albeit less of one. Miss Fortune can still do very well running full lethality up until late game and some Jhin players still take Ghostblade first/second item whenever double Infinity Edge falls out of meta.

The same threat goes for AP champs as well, AP fighters/Juggernauts Mordekaiser Sylas want healthier items but assassins Ekko Fizz and mages Lux could abuse them (and you thought aftershock Lissandra was BS before). There were even some ideations for some AP juggernaut items but they were never carried out.

puśsýSep 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The DrBonjigollo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2019-09-16T22:26:48.469+0000)

I feel like the main concern with giving assassins variety in their builds is that non-assassins can also build and abuse their items, which causes the non-assassin champions to get nerfed for months of outrage until the items themselves get nerfed and become useless and then we're back to the basic build.

For example when Duskblade first came out and lethality was introduced everybody used it and could do well, and even some ap champs if i recall correctly. This still stands though and is still a problem, albeit less of one. Miss Fortune can still do very well running full lethality up until late game and some Jhin players still take Ghostblade first/second item whenever double Infinity Edge falls out of meta.

The same threat goes for AP champs as well, AP fighters/Juggernauts want healthier items but assassins and mages could abuse them (and you thought aftershock Lissandra was BS before). There were even some ideations for some AP juggernaut items but they were never carried out.

Then nerf the assassin items for ranged champions.

If lux and lissandra begin abusing melee ap items, make the items melee only.

If ekko/fizz begin to abuse the items, then nerf those 2 or someone gate the item behind an hp threshold or something.

MasterDCloneSep 17, 20191 votes

but doesnt that then limit the build diversity to those ranged champions by limiting them to their core items because they shouldn't be allowed to branch out?

VerxintSep 17, 20191 votes

League's stat system makes build diversity impossible.

AlienPrimateSep 17, 20191 votes

Items I build on Taric:

item 3001 item 3194 item 3504 item 1416 item 1401 item 3508 item 3110 item 3025 item 3109 item 3190 item 3139 item 3222 item 3042 item 3056 item 3143 item 3069 item 3401 item 3800 item 3027 item 3040 item 3065 item 3053 item 3068 item 3075 item 3748 item 3091 item 3050

BugogSep 17, 20192 votes

I can only build 6 items on my taric. :(

ZaFishboneSep 17, 20191 votes

Build diversity was only ever a thing because, a few seasons ago, ppl didn't understand the game as well as they do now. Even if you take out duskblade, shojin, etc. and other "problematic" items from the game, there would be 2 possibilities. You either add or tweak some items to take their place, or the champs/classes that relied on them become underpowered. It's because most ppl understand the game so well, that no one can afford to screw around with alternative builds. When an opponent close in skill is tryharding, you either do the same or loose.