Riot what happened to immobile mages?

gozer45·Mar 5, 2015·18 votes·4,054 views

I seriously wonder about the thought processes here. Immobile mages seem to get nothing but nerfs despite there immobility. When one is hard to play against because he can kill you really quickly you nerf him. this would make sense except for the fact that mobile mages do the same or more damage and generally see buffs not nerfs, not that they haven't seen nerfs. Immobile mages that i love like Viktor and Velkoz and Veigar just don't hold up to a well played Ahrie in the current structure of the game. when talking about balance choices when Velkoz came out i remember the sentiment being that immobile mages because they are immobile generally get higher raw power and usually some cc, but Ahrie now has a speed dash a ult with three dashes and a charm which is better cc then anything Velkoz has combined with true damage and heals which Velkoz dos not even approach having.

This being the state of things i why should i ever play anything but Ahrie or Leblanc or Fizz? Admittedly i don't enjoy them as much but they are legitimately just better in the current game structure. And I'm not saying that there are not good players on Velkoz or other immobile mages. There are and they do some times beat Ahries and Leblancs. Obviously player skill is vastly important, but all other things being equal if the mobile mage and the immobile mage have the same damage potential the mobile mage wins.

I am also not saying riot you stink why make game so bad rage because my pet champ doesn't do what i want him to. I think over all your usage of perfect imbalance is impressive. Giving players the tool box to find ways to make our own balance is great and the way you generally handle these issues is great, but in the end i am simply tired of playing against Ahrie most games because she is legitimately the best pick and has no real downsides to chose. The problem is that mid is getting stale and the options for playing there are almost none existent.

I guess the question is if mobile champs are supposed to have to pay a toll of power to get there mobility why is it that none of them do?

41 Comments

The Bearded BardMar 5, 201513 votes

Anivia Annie Fiddlesticks Cassiopeia Heimerdinger Morgana Malzahar Orianna Ryze Rumble Syndra TwistedFate Viktor Velkoz Ziggs Xerath Swain Karthus Karma

All nonmobile mages, all of them fine champions. Not perfectly balanced, of course, but none of them are bad at all.

Honestly, I'd rather see some help for those that are castrated by the recent popularity of Morello's. Vladimir Aatrox Swain DrMundo Zac

gozer45Mar 5, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=37UxGEPp,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-05T09:02:10.246+0000)

All nonmobile mages, all of them fine champions. Not perfectly balanced, of course, but none of them are bad at all.

Honestly, I'd rather see some help for those that are castrated by the recent popularity of Morello's.

id agree with you all of them fine champs but if we assume both players are of equal skill these champs don't have the viability of Ahri Akali Leblanc Fizz Zed

once again i would never argue that immobile champs are bad I just don't see a down side to playing a mobile one.

The Bearded BardMar 5, 20155 votes

{quoted}

id agree with you all of them fine champs but if we assume both players are of equal skill these champs don't have the viability of

once again i would never argue that immobile champs are bad I just don't see a down side to playing a mobile one.

Well to give you some examples, none of them brings the AOE CC that Annie, Viktor, Anivia, Malz, Ori, Syndra, Velkoz, Cass, Morg, and Lux have. None of them can kite as well as Anivia, Vel'koz, Brand, and Viktor, none of them bring the utility of Karma, Morg, Ori, Malz, Anivia, Lux, and Fiddles, literally the only thing those five champions do is kill. Not all mages are meant to do that, it's really a vast class filled with all kinds of different styles.

Also, Fizz is definitely not a mage anymore.

Silents429Mar 5, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=37UxGEPp,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-05T09:13:48.212+0000)

Well to give you some examples, none of them brings the AOE CC that Annie, Viktor, Anivia, Malz, Ori, Syndra, Velkoz, Cass, Morg, and Lux have. None of them can kite as well as Anivia, Vel'koz, Brand, and Viktor, none of them bring the utility of Karma, Morg, Ori, Malz, Anivia, Lux, and Fiddles, literally the only thing those five champions do is kill. Not all mages are meant to do that, it's really a vast class filled with all kinds of different styles.

Also, is definitely not a mage anymore.

Not to mention when I play Swain I am able to take a shit ton of damage while my ult is going, not even mobile mages are capable of that.

BijornMar 6, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=37UxGEPp,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-05T09:13:48.212+0000)

Well to give you some examples, none of them brings the AOE CC that Annie, Viktor, Anivia, Malz, Ori, Syndra, Velkoz, Cass, Morg, and Lux have. None of them can kite as well as Anivia, Vel'koz, Brand, and Viktor, none of them bring the utility of Karma, Morg, Ori, Malz, Anivia, Lux, and Fiddles, literally the only thing those five champions do is kill. Not all mages are meant to do that, it's really a vast class filled with all kinds of different styles.

Also, is definitely not a mage anymore.

I have to disagree with Brand being able to kite well. One target, yes. But that is it and can easily be avoided since 3 out of his 4 skills are skillshots. You have to hit one of two skillshots first, or the targeted one that has very little range, then potentially hit his Q skillshot. I Love Brand. he is one of my favorite champs in the game by far. But to say he is one of the better kiting immobile mages is a bit far.

DralunMar 5, 201511 votes

{quoted}

id agree with you all of them fine champs but if we assume both players are of equal skill these champs don't have the viability of

once again i would never argue that immobile champs are bad I just don't see a down side to playing a mobile one.

You just called ori, rumble, and xerath less viable than akali.

I'm sorry but fucking LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

EedatMar 5, 20153 votes

Akali is nerfed into oblivion. AP Fizz is absolutely unplayable. Only role he has now is a top/jungle bruiser

N30NP4NDAMar 5, 20151 votes

akali can still instantly kill you...

VardenSaladMar 5, 20151 votes

Akali's single rotation combo sits at 640 + (170% AP)(60% AD). She isn't "instantly" killing anyone.

AltricadMar 6, 20153 votes

I'd argue that fizz is still strong ( just played aganist an orianna). He can't cheese like a french baker anymore, but the damage when he hits 6 is still there

If you run Mr pen runes ( like you should), his damage isn't affected that much even in early.

But yes, he did get some of his damage taken away

DralunMar 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I'd argue that fizz is still strong ( just played aganist an orianna). He can't cheese like a french baker anymore, but the damage when he hits 6 is still there

If you run Mr pen runes ( like you should), his damage isn't affected that much even in early.

But yes, he did get some of his damage taken away

You mean hybrid pen runes? No decent fizz is going to be using straight mpen...

ApplyForAGrantMar 5, 20151 votes

Do you even play League?

Stars ShaperMar 5, 20155 votes

Add Mordekaiser

After those joke of changes no news about him

Chromatic EagleMar 5, 20151 votes

Out of that list I see Xerath being played a lot in LCS. Maybe mages need more range.

EedatMar 6, 20151 votes

LCS =/= SoloQ

Raid Boss MordeMar 6, 20151 votes

You forgot about Mordekaiser

He's not really a great champion right now, and Riot "buffed" him. I don't think they know the difference between a buff and a nerf.

Maximum ZileanMar 5, 20154 votes

One thing nemesis mode taught me, there really are no bad champions in the game. Just some are more situational then others.

This includes the immobile mages, You should know they still pack ALOT of damage to them. Just not as faceroll as other mages with super mobility since your positioning is key.

gozer45Mar 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Zilean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=37UxGEPp,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-05T09:08:40.183+0000)

One thing nemesis mode taught me, there really are no bad champions in the game. Just some are more situational then others.

This includes the immobile mages, You should know they still pack ALOT of damage to them. Just not as faceroll as other mages with super mobility since your positioning is key.

i totally agree i'm not saying immobile are bad but other then preference can you think of a reason to not pick mobile mages?

Maximum ZileanMar 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

i totally agree i'm not saying immobile are bad but other then preference can you think of a reason to not pick mobile mages?

I can list a few examples. Malzahar near impossible to 1v1 due to his ult and % of max health pool damage. Swain Gets near unkillable late game while still dealing insane damage.

But its mostly "if you enjoy using them, then use them" Usually the people who pick the lesser picked mages generally can position themselves well enough to avoid insta death from super mobile ones.

gozer45Mar 5, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Zilean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=37UxGEPp,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-03-05T09:20:03.899+0000)

I can list a few examples. near impossible to 1v1 due to his ult and % of max health pool damage. Gets near unkillable late game while still dealing insane damage.

But its mostly "if you enjoy using them, then use them" Usually the people who pick the lesser picked mages generally can position themselves well enough to avoid insta death from super mobile ones.

i agree in the positioning is key for people who play off pick mages but in the case of both malz and swain if they get charmed by ahrie that's it she can burst you dead and because she has the mobility she has a much easier time positioning her self to do just that then you get of avoiding it.

Lao Fu the TigerMar 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

i agree in the positioning is key for people who play off pick mages but in the case of both malz and swain if they get charmed by ahrie that's it she can burst you dead and because she has the mobility she has a much easier time positioning her self to do just that then you get of avoiding it.

Ahri burst Swain?

....Haha haha

A Swain with his Abyssal Scepter and a Spirit Visage won't be bursted by any mage, more or less.

Realm DownMar 5, 20152 votes

lux absolutely craps on both of these guys, just saying. especially malz, though. he can't even get in range to ulti you unless he has a gank. same thing if you play morg against either of these guys.

Malix FarwinMar 5, 20151 votes

Well i can think of at least two, teamfight and CC.

Only Play DariusMar 5, 20154 votes

Zed

OhOkYeaMar 5, 20152 votes

Annie, swain, xerath, etc

67chromeMar 5, 20152 votes

I guess the question is if mobile champs are supposed to have to pay a toll of power to get there mobility why is it that none of them do?

Pretty much every champion pays a price for the capabilities they have in their kit.

The big thing you have to keep in mind is it isn't just a damage vs. speed scale. Riot has to factor in:

Damage, single-target damage, area-effect damage, poke damage, burst damage, speed at which you can unload damage, kiting/animation canceling capabilities when dealing damage, resource costs for damage, how much damage you do early game, how much damage you do mid game, how much damage you do late game, how damage scales over the course of a game, how even (or uneven) damage scales in level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6+, how easy (or difficult) damage is to counter-build, how easy (or difficult) the power curve of damage scaling is to exploit, how accurate/reliable damage-dealing mechanics are, etc. Sustain, defense, mobility, CC, and utilities also have a similar number of considerations - and there's more things you can throw in the mix like dueling capabilities, team-fight potential, ease of use, weakness to a counter-pick, usefulness in the pick/ban stage, viable alternate builds, potential lanning positions...

Balance also extends to player skill - balancing a million things requires certain assumptions to be made about players dealing with a given champion, so nothing is going to be perfectly balanced across all Elos.

Anyways - don't focus on a narrow metric like mobility vs. damage when looking at a wide range of champions. Try to find other areas of comparison, you may find that, say, the team-fight capabilities of a lot of slow champions is considerably better than that of a lot of mobile champions.

gozer45Mar 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much every champion pays a price for the capabilities they have in their kit.

The big thing you have to keep in mind is it isn't just a damage vs. speed scale. Riot has to factor in:

Damage, single-target damage, area-effect damage, poke damage, burst damage, speed at which you can unload damage, kiting/animation canceling capabilities when dealing damage, resource costs for damage, how much damage you do early game, how much damage you do mid game, how much damage you do late game, how damage scales over the course of a game, how even (or uneven) damage scales in level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6+, how easy (or difficult) damage is to counter-build, how easy (or difficult) the power curve of damage scaling is to exploit, how accurate/reliable damage-dealing mechanics are, etc. Sustain, defense, mobility, CC, and utilities also have a similar number of considerations - and there's more things you can throw in the mix like dueling capabilities, team-fight potential, ease of use, weakness to a counter-pick, usefulness in the pick/ban stage, viable alternate builds, potential lanning positions...

Balance also extends to player skill - balancing a million things requires certain assumptions to be made about players dealing with a given champion, so nothing is going to be perfectly balanced across all Elos.

Anyways - don't focus on a narrow metric like mobility vs. damage when looking at a wide range of champions. Try to find other areas of comparison, you may find that, say, the team-fight capabilities of a lot of slow champions is considerably better than that of a lot of mobile champions.

what toll does ahrie pay? be it from damage or some where else? she does good damage late early and mid. good single target and area. some of the best poke in the game. huge burst great kite and sustain with low resource cost. So the question still stands what toll does she pay?

The Bearded BardMar 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

what toll does ahrie pay? be it from damage or some where else?

Squishy, bad wave clear if she maxes W, unreliable damage if she maxes Q, low cc duration if she doesn't max E second, one single target skillshot cc, her mobility is an ult with a pretty sizeable cooldown.

AltricadMar 6, 20152 votes

Bruh, once ahri hits 60 AP. She can clear a WHOLE wave with 2 qs. Once she hits over 100 Ap, she can clear it in 1 q. That true damage is insane. In fact, I wonder why she has it in the first place. Her q was intended to be difficult to hit, but the recent buffs to her speed made it extremely easy to get that return part of the orb on enemies.

The Bearded BardMar 5, 20151 votes

Awww thread died. Was having fun. Actually got me in the mood to play Swain again, but I still think I'll hold off until Morello's isn't a must buy on every ap champion.

EconomiczMar 5, 20151 votes

Heimer and Malz have obscene win rates for a reason, but keep complaining about how in your solo q games the 47% win rate champs are better than the 54% ones

ShadowmenderMar 5, 20157 votes

And that reason is that only those who main those champions really play them. The ones with mobility, everyone plays. As such, more people who don't know how to play them. This is true with all non-meta champions.

Malix FarwinMar 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Heimer and Malz have obscene win rates for a reason, but keep complaining about how in your solo q games the 47% win rate champs are better than the 54% ones

win rates tell you so little. All it possibly means is that in the current meta nothing but their counters are being played

AFK PushMar 5, 20151 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Middle

The only mobile mid with a win percentage over 50 percent is ahri, all of the others are immobile. I think it is a balancing issue, where people prefer these mobility champions over the immobile ones even if they are less successful etc. Like why do people prefer to play Zed over Heim, even though they are more likely to win statistically? Because Zed is probably more fun than heim etc.

Champion SkinMar 5, 20152 votes

Actually Heim has a rather low pick rate which usually means that he is either only picked by mains (who are really good at him) or into favorable positions... And if he was more picked his win rate would likely drop

As then he would likely get picked into worse situations or by players who are less good at Heim

AFK PushMar 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=37UxGEPp,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-03-05T18:24:24.362+0000)

Actually Heim has a rather low pick rate which usually means that he is either only picked by mains (who are really good at him) or into favorable positions... And if he was more picked his win rate would likely drop

As then he would likely get picked into worse situations or by players who are less good at Heim

Well you kind of just proved my point lol Although some champions might be exceptionally good or sleeper pick, or only played by mains (high win rate, low pick rate) then there are champions like zed who get picked who have low win rates but high pick rates. It is the same problem with lee sin, extremely high pick rate but low win rate. Why do people keep picking him? Because people find the champ fun compared to a one trick pony champion like Warwick.

Champion SkinMar 5, 20151 votes

What I am saying is that if people actually picked Heim... his Win rate would potentially DROP... because then people who aren't as good at heim would play him and he might get picked into more unfavorable situations...

BoswickMar 5, 20151 votes

Velkoz doesn't have true damage? Have you read his passive? Also an aoe knock up is better than a single target cc.

Drunk RummateMar 6, 20151 votes

what happened to immobile mages?

they got LeBonked

bah dum, tiss

JelubiMar 6, 20151 votes

Fizz Gets a 20% damage amp on his ult, yet is now "unplayable" because he lost 20% damage amp from DFG". Typical League, Fizz was BUFFED not nerfed, maybe for the time being his damage may be a hundred or so less because of the initial damage of DFG active but in the end RIOT is already bringing back a 120 AP item with bonus damage passive while Fizz will still have a DFG passive on his ult.

The same way Leblanc was "not viable" for a few months after she lost her silence. It just takes some time for players to realize these champs aren't weak just because they were tweaked. In a few months people will realize Fizz is even stronger than he was before and he will become popular again, people just think he's weak because now you have to actually land your ultimate to overkill your target and missing the ultimate means you will only just barely kill them. The 120 AP is coming back, the bonus damage passive is coming back and the damage amp was carried on in his ultimate.

I'm glad Fizz has become unpopular because for a while I don't have to deal with such a broken kit but in the end it was a buff.

Karma Karma really isn't an immobile mage. If you have a strong enough movement speed buff with a low enough cooldown, its safe to consider that mobility. Though its not on par with Leblanc, it is still a form of mobility. Actually its a very healthy form of mobility. She can't jump through walls all day yet she isn't a statue either. But calling Karma immobile is almost like calling Zilean Immobile.

Takeuchi 17Mar 6, 20151 votes

you forget the most mobile melee mage/assassin Kassadin is now null and void. apparently theres no winning with mobile mages or immobile ones. either or someone will complain and they will all be nuked eventually