There's a logical gap in how the mana changes are being applied

Ultîma·4/18/2018, 6:09:03 PM·41 votes·13,390 views

My biggest issue with the mana changes was that every mid laner was nerfed almost equally, regardless of which function they're supposed to fulfill as a character, or their current place in the meta.

For example:

Ahri Level 1 Mana Regen :: 1.2 per second >>> 1.6 per second Level 1 Mana Pool :: 334 >>> 418 Mana Per Level :: 50 >>> 25

Anivia

  • Level 1 Mana Regen :: 1.2 per second >>> 1.6 per second
  • Level 1 Mana Pool :: 396 >>> 495 ** Mana Per Level :: 50 >>> 25

Ahri is a mage-assassin, while Anivia is a control-oriented mage. Their changes are almost identical, even though Anivia has long been known as a wave-pusher while Ahri is more pick-oriented. The problem is that in the scenario where each manage their mana somewhat equally, Anivia will not be able to fulfill her intended wave-pushing purpose whereas Ahri will still be a solid assassin in the mid-to-late game.

Karthus having his mana growth shaved in half when he depends on his Q to farm, already builds mana items and routinely mana-starved himself already is so insane to me that it borders on me thinking Riot actually hates that champion. This isn't even about him casting spells willy-nilly; it will completely neuter his ability to farm without taking teleport to replenish at turret.

Lissandra is already a champion that sees an extremely low amount of play due to how crazy her mana costs are, and they're now going to become worse. I know she has a small buff coming to her Q on the PBE, but the blanket nerf applied to her along with every other mages will impact her a lot more.

Lux ooms herself after casting a couple E's since it costs more than her ultimate, and she isn't contested specifically because of the fact that she's not able to push waves like the other meta mid laners yet she's taking a hit. Edit: There are now additional Lux changes on the PBE aimed at reducing her mana costs and help with her passive procs, which should help her waveclear somewhat and bring her more in line with other artillery mages.

Ekko didn't get a change even though he only needs to throw Q to clear a wave. Somehow, he has an insane amount of wave pushing potential even though he's an assassin and gets to maintain it while every mage is getting this aspect of their kit nerfed.

TwistedFate will now have such low amount of mana that he will simply never be able to shove a lane in order to gank without significantly investing into mana items, completely making his intended role as a ganking mage irrelevant (not that it wasn't already due to Taliyah having taken over that spot from him ages ago).

Some characters absolutely needed the nerf due to their ability to permashove a wave after level 9, but other cases like mentioned above don't make any sense to me. It's like Riot looked at Taliyah, Ryze and Cass' wave pushing and then nerfed everyone due to these champion's ability to shove waves while scaling incredibly hard into the late game, rather than evaluating the issue on a case-by-case basis. I'd like to get some input from a Rioter in this because I fail to see how fucking Fiddlesticks also got hit by these changes.

34 Comments

Wild Geese4/18/2018, 9:09:16 PM22 votes

No, the logic is very simple see: Take their mana gain and half it, take their base mana and add +84. Take their mana Regen and add .4!

It's very logical, and simple to just apply in a spread sheet with some basic computer skills.

Why bother fine tuning any of this? Looking at individual champions? Why bother when balance can be so easy! [sg-miss-fortune]

Wild Geese4/18/2018, 11:25:25 PM14 votes

Red posts on PBE changes are up... They are saying the mage changes are going through because mages "are picked for 4 years in pro games". So whatever, it's happening and there's no use complaining about it. They are doing it, they'll justify this dumb change because it's the only one they could think of or can bother with.

Just going to uninstall and go away to play other Videogames. Maybe if they half revert the changes I'll come back. Goodbye friends, goodbye league. item 3070 item 3070

Dont Blìnk4/18/2018, 7:45:31 PM12 votes

Ekko didn't get a change even though he only needs to throw Q to clear a wave. Somehow, he has an insane amount of wave pushing potential even though he's an assassin and gets to maintain it while every mage is getting this aspect of their kit nerfed.

You know the 2Q waveclear has been dead for a while now, on top of this he builds doran's ring while not getting compensated in anyway. He is very mana hungry... his lane just isn't like that anymore unless you wanna lose cs.

FrostQueensPlane4/18/2018, 9:11:15 PM6 votes

Riot's live design team? Working? Like actually combing through champions and making individual adjustments instead of retarded blanket ones because it's easier? Who do you think they are?

Vekkna4/18/2018, 7:35:18 PM4 votes

Twisted Fate has a blue card.

The Doran's ring changes are actually a buff for Liss because of how many terrible lane matchups she has and how easily she can be zoned off of farm. It's not uncommon for her to have lower early CS and begin to make up the difference with strong waveclear at rank 4-5 Q.

Venomar4/19/2018, 6:09:57 AM4 votes

Anivia (and many others, Karthus included) will be fine. Especially with the new item 1027 start meta that's going to happen instantly after these changes go live.

You don't want us to sustain in lane until our first back? Fine. Now everyone that uses them are just going to rush blue crystals and early back for item 3070 or item 3010. With the larger starting mana pool and a crystal, they won't need the early sustain now that you're giving them a shorter trip to thier core sustain anyways. TP back into lane and relentlessly shove to starve any laner that doesn't do the exact same or needs to wait 200-600 gold more foritem 3802.

I can see it now. Especially since they want to buff item 3027 (which btw, is the entire problem with Archangels users, the ones who build both, and you're buffing it, omegalul) in the same patch as nerfing item 3802. If you use item 3802 and don't get a lead you're going to be literally fucked against any tear or rod user you come up against because you'll never be able to leave lane without missing waves and falling behind, being punished just for needing more gold to tap your mana usage. Every item 3802 user will become by default Viktor and will have just as hard of a time doing anything for the first 8 minutes of the game until the second blue buff as he has since the great and wonderful mage item update.

Way to show the player base you know fuck all Riot. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Sometimes riot fucks up, and it's like yea that sucks. But these mana changes are the most Detached and clueless fucking thing I've seen come out the balancing team in a long damn time. Just like making objectives more rewarding to excite pro play does the exact fucking opposite, NERFING INHERENT MANA SUSTAIN FOR EVERY SINGLE MAGE ACROSS THE BOARD is going to make the Champs who have built in sustain, abuse tear and rod already, and don't care about these changes as much EVEN MORE FUCKING POWERFUL THAN THEY ALREADY ARE.

Literally yesterday a thread about "please don't let LoL become runescape" and what it would take to kill League. And it was all about "alienating part of your player base through changes they don't like, making them leave your game". Literally one day later they come out with these bone headed Bullshit changes that alienates a MASSIVE portion of their player base.

I'm all for mana meaning something, but this flat nerf across the board is the most wrong way to approach it on so many levels. It's going to be bad if this is what goes through. Tear and rod uses will amass such a massive gap of power in the form of mana sustain over everyone else, that riot will have to spend the next two years trying to slap bandaid fixes on every single individual champion they've fucked up, just like the assassin update.

Sorry, I'm mad, I know this isn't the thread, but I just saw they were buffing item 3027 and I lost my mind. There's never been a more defining moment of "we have no idea wtf we're doing" for me from riot, ever, than buffing item 3027 in the same patch you're trying to "fix" mana sustain abusers and nerfing the cost of item 3802, completely fucking solo item 3285 and item 3030 users, who are already having to balance mana usages.

/rant

OHminus4/19/2018, 4:10:40 AM2 votes

Well. I liked playing mages in normals, but I guess I'm not going to play mages anymore. Don't worry, I'll still play the champions when I can.

Anivia item 3508 item 3087 item 3031 item 3072 item 3042 item 3006 new build

Corrupt Bliss4/19/2018, 8:54:28 AM1 votes

I mean I've been playing a lot of mid lately, and rarely ever do I run out of mana. Just about every mage builds item 3048 , and now that majority of AP items offer mana I honestly feel people have to try to run out of mana. Hell, mana is so easily accessible via runes, items, and base mana regen and mana growth stats that I've been seeing AP Kog'Maw running around again.

JavScr1P74/19/2018, 2:33:43 AM1 votes

Teemo