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@Riot Fearless, What was Sona made for?

Sonaring··43 votes·27,408 views

I am directly asking Riot Fearless what the true intentions of reworking Sona? Was she just not viable in any meta or was she just not “fun”? Is she just an easy champion for new players to learn the game? I want these questions answered.

The current state of Sona just isn’t viable anywhere in high tier anymore. She feels like half a champion and impacts less of a game. Her mechanics are degraded and can’t even match with any of the current support champions. I sometimes feel bad for my adc that has to lane with me or even for my entire team. It just feels like a complete place holder.

Besides the time of Sona X Ezreal bot lane Season 3, Sona has been shunned and nerfed in many cases. Her Q range, her Base stats, Q damage, Powercord damage, Crescendo damage, AP ratios, and we can go on and on, but it was quite tolerable and understanding. She was sometimes a lot stronger than the opponent adc if played smart, I don't deny it.

I have played about 500 games of the “new-sona” and it is about time I go to my pharmacy school so I won’t be playing anymore. But during the 500 games, I was quite depressed and felt pointless as Sona. I have tested so many different runes and masteries and most of them have failed to match the current supports. And quite frankly a lot of players (including me) are just not satisfied compared to the old Sona.

Sona used to be a complete glass-cannon poke and was rewarding for risking her life. The poke on her Q was satisfactory and was able to control lane with decent pokes. If she was out of position Thresh, Leona or even Braum would punish her. But the reworked Sona does not provide any poke damage. I have tried several different builds (runes/masteries/items) on Sona to actually deal damage in lane. But it was an utter failure. She deals less damage and is even more squisher because of her stat nerf. She isn’t rewarding for what she is made for.

How often do people utilize Sona’s Q passive? Hardly ever. It seems the extra ON-HIT MAGIC DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 25% AP) (+10 / 20 / 40) isn’t utilized much at all. Do high tier adc utlize them? No. Mostly because they are busy csing. It needs 100% syncro for the adc to be poking with Sona’s passive which is near impossible. The on-hit magic damage doesn’t even do enough damage anyways. It is so minimal that people rarely recognize it.

Another issue I want to address is what was the point of giving a passive on her ult? “Passive: Each rank of Crescendo grants Sona increased power in her auras. Song of Celerity also gains increased power in Sona's self buff.+10/20/40 Magic Damage for Hymn of Valor+10/20/40 shield power for Aria of Perseverance +2/4/6% Movement Speed for Song of Celerity”

I don’t understand why a support would need a passive on her ult. A sustained support in lane would take about 7~9min to reach level 6 and even much longer for level 11. It takes way too long for her to utilize the passives. It makes no sense for a support to have increased passives for QWE on her ult. And also the buffs are so minimal it is near impossible to see the difference by the time she does reach level 6. A buff like this would suit a solo laner. Look at syndra’s passive for example. It's not exactly the same but it comes close to it.

Transcendent Spells gain extra effects at max rank. Dark Sphere: Deals 15% bonus damage to champions. Force of Will: Increases the slowing duration by 33%. Scatter the Weak: Spell width increased by 50%. Unleashed Power: Range increased by 75.

These buffs are clearly for solo laners that can level up fast and utilize it.

Basically all I feel about this rework is a complete nerf, she hasn’t been played in ANY professional game. She isn't even considered to be played in competitive scene. I want to do more number crunching and talk more about missing mechanics but I just want to get this out there first. (Crescendo Ult width nerfed, E does not buff minions, Auto-attack Q Powercord sometimes does not proc damage with the Q passive and so many more)

I have said it in previous post that Sona does not need a rework because she doesn't get played anyways with such low numbers on her stats. But now I won't be playing Sona anymore because I am a complete nuisance to the team if I play Solo Q.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4636828

I just miss the days of the old Sona that used to give the team a small-baron buff. The Sona that actually influenced the team for what she was made for. Losing all that just made her useless. I think her play rate has gone more down after the rework than before.(not like she was viable than other supports anyways. Thresh, Leona, Braum, Nami)

I just want to accomplish one thing out of this post if anything. I want Fearless to answer my questions.

146 Comments

Origami Kaiju13 votes

I don't want to come across as entitled or naggy to the Riot Staff because I acknowledge all the hard work they put into Sona and I appreciate that. With that said, I'm not entirely happy with the rework, and there are still a lot of problems with her that I think need to be addressed.

Another issue I want to address is what was the point of giving a passive on her ult?

I believe that this was implemented to make Sona's early game distinctly weak. I think they wanted to open Sona up for more counterplay, which they have successfully done. But I think there has always been an easy way to deal with sona - land any amount of hard cc on her and she can be instantly deleted.

I don't understand how a late game scaling support is an ideal mechanic for the role. As a support, I want to be useful to my team with utility, poke, or sustain at all times. I feel like my team is handicapped until I can put 3 points into crescendo and get max CDR.

If you played a lot of Sona before the rework,and after, then you can definitely feel a big difference in power level in regard to her early game. To be honest, playing Sona does not feel good during the laning phase. One reason for this is that Q's damage is not significant enough to justify putting yourself in a vulnerable position. Considering that heal is weaker (unless you've maxed it first, in which case poke is redundant anyways), has a longer CD, and higher mana cost - you cannot afford to make any mistakes . The reward just isn't high enough to compensate for how risky it is.

The worst experience is trying to play Sona when your team is behind. If you are down in levels, you feel absolutely useless to your team. Your poke is nonexistant, your heal is negligible, and your speed boost is just a waste of mana. All you can do is hope to land a god-like ult on high priority targets and give your team a chance to burst them down.

I'm fine with giving Sona counterplay. Her longer cooldowns and higher mana costs, and the removal of her invisible stats effectively curb a lot of Sona's power throughout the game. After all those nerfs, I don't see how she still needed significant reductions to her other numbers as well.

With that said, I have still managed to have success with Sona in certain situations and she's still my favorite champion in the League, but I'm sad to say I find myself playing Nami, Morgana, and Thresh a lot more now.

ShadowGlaive21311 votes

iirc Riot claimed she was reworked because she's not "satisfying to play." But what is satisfying to a player depends on their individual values and what they actually know about the champ really =X I think the fact that her pick/win rate appears to have remained pretty much unchanged, if not lower than before, indicates that the rework has not really changed Sona's state in relation to the overall player base. I've been against the rework ever since I heard of it. She was my go-to support before the rework but after the rework came I played her for about 22 games and couldn't stand new Sona anymore and moved to Nami >.< I admire your devotion to Sona and hope you get your response from Fearless, and good luck in pharmacy school =X

sp4419 votes

Riot in general seem to have developed a grudge against any and all passive stat buffs. Basically, if you can't see it on the screen, they're going to find a way to make it so.

Pika3104 votes

#BetterNerfSona

DreamingOf Peace8 votes

We made tons of threads on the PBE and said all this months ago. They didn't listen then, they won't now. People who are wrong usually believe they are right and never want to own up to their mistakes even when those mistakes are clearly laid out in front of them. That's why as a company they should both ask for AND LISTEN TO feedback.

Pika3106 votes

Unfortunately, their sheer arrogance won't allow them to admit that, maybe, just maybe the people actually playing their game might just happen enough first-hand experience, especially after hundreds of games to make a logical judgment on the quality of their work. Fearless especially is so desperate to prove himself, he completely lacks the humility to admit he was unqualified to lead this rework and ultimately failed both Sona and her fans spectacularly.

Arnai8 votes

Sona used to be a complete glass-cannon poke and was rewarding for risking her life. The poke on her Q was satisfactory and was able to control lane with decent pokes. If she was out of position Thresh, Leona or even Braum would punish her. But the reworked Sona does not provide any poke damage. I have tried several different builds (runes/masteries/items) on Sona to actually deal damage in lane. But it was an utter failure. She deals less damage and is even more squisher because of her stat nerf. She isn’t rewarding for what she is made for.

I don’t understand why a support would need a passive on her ult. A sustained support in lane would take about 7~9min to reach level 6 and even much longer for level 11. It takes way too long for her to utilize the passives. It makes no sense for a support to have increased passives for QWE on her ult. And also the buffs are so minimal it is near impossible to see the difference by the time she does reach level 6. A buff like this would suit a solo laner. Look at syndra’s passive for example. It's not exactly the same but it comes close to it.

I just miss the days of the old Sona that used to give the team a small-baron buff. The Sona that actually influenced the team for what she was made for.

What this guy is saying.

Miku Hime sama5 votes

Yet Riot will never hear a word of it. Mainly because they don't want to. They like Sona being an unplayable mess.

Linna Excel6 votes

I think she was made for LCS viewership. TBH, I think that's where the new redesign trends are going: everything has to be flashy so people watching the LCS can see everything.

Kao Atlantis4 votes

The entire goal of the new redesigns of summoners rift and the champions probably has some to do with visibility for people who watch the LCS. However, increased visibility is better for everyone, not just LCS viewers. They have mentioned that the design goal is to increase clarity for everyone.

Sonaring13 votes

But the problem is, the current Sona is just not viable anywhere. Did LCS or OGN ever play the reworked Sona? No. She is in need for direct base stat buffs. She is way too squishy in her current state.

12tales4 votes

LPL did, for what it's worth. Has LCS even been allowed to play Sona? I believe that most reworked champions are given a few weeks in which they're not allowed to be played competitively, and I'm pretty sure Sona was reworked not too long before playoffs.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Sona was reworked in large part because A) Her sustain in lane was annoying to deal with early and B) her power in the mid and late game was largely invisible other than her ultimate.

Riot screwed up her Q. Fearless may have been in charge of communicating the rework to us but that doesn't mean that he was the deciding factor on every single change made to her, they probably have at least two or three designers working on each rework, and the lead designer (Meddler) most likely has to sign off on final changes before they go live. Her Q is undoubtedly worse, but the problem with a champion like Sona is that her power has to be balanced around the absolute best case scenario, which is all five champions benefitting from her aura at the same time. The problem with that is that it gives Sona a uniquely horrible disadvantage when one of her allies disconnects from a game, a large portion of her potential power goes out the window, while her general power is already weakened to compensate for her enormous potential power.

That said, the real issue isn't with her rework, it's with the players. Players focus so hard on the laning phase that they fail to appreciate the power that Sona actually has. Sona is a late-game support, a champion who is designed to have a terrible early game but an amazing team fight power. This seems counter productive, after all supports were originally so popular BECAUSE of their strong early game, and they were given no gold because their scalings were terrible and therefore they needed no late game.

So, how do players react when Riot emphasizes this aspect of her? They decry that she has worse poking power (not relevant, she's a heal/utility support, not a bully), that her shield duration is too short (a team shield shouldn't be up for more than a second anyway, but at least this rework gave Riot an excuse to nerf Thresh's team shield), that her auras require her to be too close to the team (a champion with no skill shots and auto targeting has difficulty positioning? Damn, I wish I could just close my eyes and slam my face against the keyboard like I used to!) and etc.

Here's the thing: Your adcs are going to be jerks to you. That's just a shift in our meta. Everyone is so thirsty these days because Riot has made snowballing harder. ADCs feel like they don't have enough power in the mid game just by farming up a storm anymore, so they have to "win" lane instead of just "not lose" lane now. IGNORE THEM. As a support, your job is to help THE TEAM. Marksmen will always find a reason to whine at you, just take the abuse or mute until level 10 when the team fights start, and then coordinate with your top laner and jungler to use your Ardent Censer buff and your team shield to CRUSH your enemies.

Don't worry about lane phase. Stay back, level W first and keep your wards up and just focus on surviving. Don't poke, don't go all-in, don't try and get your marksman kills because the risk is way too high for the reward. Instead, make it clear to your carry that you are going to play passive and if you're smart and you ward properly you won't feed. Then you get into mid game and you just outscale the enemy support too hard.

Origami Kaiju10 votes

a team shield shouldn't be up for more than a second anyway

I just want to point out Karma's 5 team shield not only lasts for 4 seconds, it also boosts ally's movement speed by 60%, AND does magic damage to all enemies within 600 range of the targeted ally.

Also Locket of the Iron Solar active shields all ally's within 1100 range and lasts for 5 seconds.

Hyrum Graff5 votes

I just want to point out Karma's 5 team shield not only lasts for 4 seconds, it also boosts ally's movement speed by 60%, AND does magic damage to all enemies within 600 range of the targeted ally.

Yeah, her ult is better than Sona's w. I'm OK with that.

Also Locket of the Iron Solar active shields all ally's within 1100 range and lasts for 5 seconds.

Yes, but it also costs a bunch of money. If you want locket, you're giving up other useful stats.

Origami Kaiju9 votes

Oh I forgot to mention Lux. Her shield can last up to 6 seconds (3 seconds each time it comes into contact with an ally) and can shield your entire team.

I was just pointing out that all the other multiple people shields are more than 1.5 seconds. Personally I don't think Sona's w shield should last 5+ seconds, but it certainly could use a small boost, maybe 2.5 seconds rather than 1.5 seconds. Considering the shield strength at rank one isn't even enough to block an auto attack.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

What the guy above me said about Karma. And Locket of the Iron Solari has a cooldown that is 6x longer than Sona's W for 3 times as long the duration.

As for Lux, it's a skill shot. It should be rewarded by being stronger. In exchange, Sona's W actually HEALS, which is much better than a shield, and it also has a much easier time hitting the entire team.

The shield strength at rank one isn't enough to block an auto attack, but Sona isn't balanced around her lane phase. Her lane phase is SUPPOSED to be ridiculously weak, because her team fight phase is ridiculously strong. At level 16, Sona's shield protects 5 allies for 155+20% AP, or 775+100% AP if you want the total for all 5 champions. As I said before, Sona is balanced around her optimal use scenario. If you saw a champion who could put 775+100% AP shield on himself, you'd think it was OP. Because it's spread out and works better against AOE than autos, people appreciate it less.

Origami Kaiju8 votes

Dude, read the comment chain. I commented on the fact that he specifically said "a team shield shouldn't be up for more than a second anyway". I was merely pointing out several team shields in the game DO last more than 1 second.

Like I said before, I don't think the shield needs to have a 4,5, or 6 second duration anyways, and I was never arguing for that in the first place.

Sunfield4 votes

I like your reasoning but you are wrong. Sona CANT be a weak lane support, she is a poke sustain support, if she is weak she will just get pushed out by the likes of Braum and Leona. Her teamfight presence is okay for a strong lane support, but she is not Thresh nor Leona nor Braum, they all contribute more. The problem with optimal use scenario is that it rarely happens. Her strength has always been about laning.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

You can say all these things but that doesn't mean Fearless will listen to you dude. I'm trying to point out the good things about the kit and suggest ways for you guys to adapt because the new Sona actually isn't that bad as long as you ban out at least one of the all-ins (preferably Leona, she hurts more than Braum) and play smart. You play passive, you fall behind in lane, maybe you get a few ganks from your jungle but as long as you don't feed you just outscale hard in the mid and late game.

I build Sona one of two ways, both of which involve using her crazy mobility to avoid death:

  1. Utility Sona: Talisman, Ruby Sightstone, Boots of Swiftness + Captain, Ardent Censer, Mikael's Crucible, Banshee's Veil
  2. AP Sona: Talisman in lane, then Seraph's, Boots of Swiftness + Alacrity, Mejai's Soulstealer, Lich Bane, Rabadon's, and sell Talisman for Zhonya's.
Sunfield9 votes

Im not talking to fearless Im talking to you

Sona doesnt outscale shit. Nami, Thresh, Braum, Leona, all are better for the late game.

You can build deathcap Sona for all I care, you wont be doing more than these 4 anyway mid to late game.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Lol. Shows what you know. I just played as Sona a day or two ago and went full AP and I was 13/4/18. Most kills, most assists, least deaths, most gold in game, as a support. I was out-damaging my mid in terms of burst. The thing about Sona is she's extremely mobile. With 700 AP or so, you get to give yourself 75% move speed every 8 seconds (with 40% cdr) and then you just blow everyone up with Lich Bane.

Sunfield6 votes

Cool. I too can outdamage my mid when Im getting spoon fed kills. Your point?

And what does "extremely mobile" mean in League of Yasuos and others? She sure is fast, but so is Nami, Lulu and 50 other champions

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Problem is that Whimsy, Surging Tides, Divine Blessing, and Time Warp only affect one champion.

The only teamwide move speed buffs in the game (ignoring Talisman obviously) are Defiance (60%, no scaling, duration 1.5 seconds, cooldown 36-), Raise Morale (10%, no scaling, duration 7 seconds, cast time, cooldown 20-12 seconds), Acceleration Gate (50% for 3 seconds, scales down to 0, cooldown 16 seconds) and On The Hunt (60% for 6 seconds, 20% for 2 seconds after, no scaling, cooldown 80 seconds).

Meanwhile, Sona's Song of Celerity has 20% +0.035 AP ratio for 1.5 seconds, with a 12-8 second cooldown. With just 600 AP, that's 41% move speed to her whole team, and 68% to her. It has a downtime of 6.5 seconds (or less if you tag your allies instead of just activating it while they are all around you). You can literally chase forever and escape forever with this kind of speed, I've seen it happen.

Sona also works much better with Lich Bane than pretty much every other support except Lulu and maybe Alistar. If Lulu and Sona are competing for best mid/late game burst support, then Lulu has the damage and Sona has the utility. Karma, her only real competitor, gets left in the dust.

Just because the meta is focused on tanky all-in supports doesn't mean Sona's not doing great as a utility/heal/late-game burst support.

Sunfield7 votes

So mind telling me why she would, to quote "outscale hard" Leona, Nami, Thresh and Braum? Advantages. Hell every support has some advantages and some of them dont even require keeping your whole team in a 700 units wide circle.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

No one outscales Thresh, but that's because Thresh has scaling that he gets over time, giving him free AP and armor. That's Riot's fault and it is the exception, not the rule.

Braum is easy. Braum is a tank whose job is to intercept blows. Braum does next to no damage unless he can catch you (impossible on Sona unless you were out of position) and can intercept damage and CC for the team. Meanwhile, Sona gives her team mobility. So one gives you cc reduction from skill shots and one gives you immense chase power (they're both excellent disengagers, I'd say their ability to peel is about tied).

Nami's scalings are awful. She and Leona are cc bots, so their ability to be useful is based on the player's skill versus his opponents', not the kit itself. If you can hit your cc, she's amazing. If you can't, she's useless. Leona even more so.

Sunfield7 votes

About Braum - sorry no one outscales the skillshot shield, 2 forms of cc and bonus resistances. Their peel is definetely not tied. If you insist on Sona being even close to Braums peel, then I will have no choice but to bail out of this discussion

Nami and Leona - :) Yeah those poor useless cc bots, scalling so awful. Have you ever watched Spazies Patch Rundurr video parody? Relevant :)

Sonaring11 votes

This is quite a very well thought-out response but I want to comment on some of your opinion.

"That said, the real issue isn't with her rework, it's with the players. Players focus so hard on the laning phase that they fail to appreciate the power that Sona actually has. Sona is a late-game support, a champion who is designed to have a terrible early game but an amazing team fight power. This seems counter productive, after all supports were originally so popular BECAUSE of their strong early game, and they were given no gold because their scalings were terrible and therefore they needed no late game. "

I don't believe the Old-Sona was ever in a position where her early game was weak. With the right mechanics and actual poking time, Sona would be able to control lane competitively with any of the current supports. Which means, dodging thresh hook while poking, trading damage output with nami's ebb and flow, focusing on the right target if leona does an all in, ext. Shouldn't players be punished if they shoot out spells randomly and miss their target?

She does truely shine very well in late game but her early game was never the issue. We actually have to worry about lane phase in this meta. The adc would be down by cs which leads to snowball. Having to actually be passive vs several of these aggressive supports makes Sona and your adc in a pinch. The lane phase control gets completely out of hand and the snowball lane phase starts. The old sona was able to punish bad supports and transition lane phase into team phase.

MakersF2 votes

Sona is a late game support, and needs to be played like janna. Max W in lane, then E or Q depending on the matchup. Saying Sona is useless is like saying Siver is without a ulti: the mobility she offers to the team is incredible, the ability to engage/disegage is really good, can block/heal the pocke and support a full pocke comp. The Q feels a bit unrewarding, I give you that, but the rest of the kit is ok for me. I usually pick her with ummobile champs (she's really good with kog imho).

Is she better than thresh/morgana/braum? Obviously not! The point is: are they too OP, or should all support be as them? Thresh can move an ally (that means negating kills and obj controll), braum can stop any dmg, morgana can send you afk for 3 seconds. This is not even with the ulties. And don't get me started on the hook, the shield and the passive of those 3. The point is that there are a few outliers that offers so much in comparison that no one can stand with them, but taken out those 3, I think Sona is completely comparable to the rest of the supports. If you know how to play her (and the OP keeps talking about poking in lane, and that's definitely NOT how I think she should be played)

My idea is that the worst culprit is that if you want to make an utility build with some AP you don't have items as a support. I build medallion, crucible, sightstone, boots, then I'd like some AP and armor/MR, but there is no item to do that. Should I build a zhonya? Doesn't make sense? I can not build penetration because utility doesn't scale with penetration. I can not build Morello because I overcap CDR. Twin shadows is not bad but is not good eighter. The ryals passive is not triggered by my Q on-hit dmg, so again it would waste a passive. Deathcap as only AP item is not cost efficient, to DFG i should be premade with my team in order to know who and when use the active. The itemization for AP utility support is the problem here IMHO.

Sonaring10 votes

On the contrary, Janna is not a late game champion. Janna relies too much on how well the ADC does. She is actually much more viable than ever before after her tornado buff. Professional Janna players play her really aggressive due to synchronizing her abilities with the ADC. I actually had a lot of problems in climbing master-tier because of several good janna players.

The biggest issue here is this, " If you know how to play her (and the OP keeps talking about poking in lane, and that's definitely NOT how I think she should be played)". If she isn't meant to poke in lane what are you suppose to do? You have a kit that is basically Q for poke, W for heal and E for movement speed buff. Powercord gives you extra damage, debuff, slow. So are you not suppose to poke in lane? Let the enemy support roll over you all day? Playing passive doesn't result in anything but a losing lane. Especially for Sona.

MakersF1 votes

There is a difference between poking and going ham. Zyra and Karma go ham, poking no stop. But that's what they should do. Sona, like Janna, is a more passive champ. Max W in lane to heal the poke (and I'm sure you understand that if you poke, but the dmg is healed, it's like you didn't poke). I'm not saing that Sona should never poke, but that's not her role. It's like picking vayne for poking. Are you picking vayne for poking? No, you pick Caitlyn. The poke of Sona comes from the empowered AA of you adc in a small skirmish, and the power comes from the repositioning potential and the healing in lane. And the Q dmg is so low that I believe it's pretty dumb to max it and try to do dmg. If you want to ham poke, pick something else.

And again, you shouldn't pick her randomly. Like Janna, she is good with a hard scaling ADC, so that you make up for the passive lane. I guess you don't like a Leona that keeps all-ining when you are vayne level 2. There are ADC that in lane are really happy if they only get to farm, as they outscale the opponent. Sona is there for them. Janna too. Sona + Lucian doesn't make sense: he is already mobile, is really agressive. Sona with kog is a much more better combo.

Janna is DEFINITELY a mid-late game champ, since her ult is way more usefull in team fights that in lane, as it scales perfectly with the more people you have around, the shield can cover all the strategic targets, the slow allows for escape/engage from/on isolated targets. And I agree with you, Janna in soloQ can be really hard to pull off because you need to be syncronized with the ADC, but if you are, she's a great peeler.

If you are master you probably know this game a lot better than me, but all the Sona I saw played extremely aggressive early, obviously losing trades because her kit is not for being agressive early, and then having to play behind all game. If you play her a bit safer, aim to cover the poke and let the ADC farm, by mid-late game you are a great asset. If by chance you get ahead, she can really become a more active champ, but still you need 5-6-7 levels at least.

But just to reiterate: SHE COULD DEFINITELY USE A Q BUFF. THAT SKILL DEALS SO LITTLE DMG THAT IT COULD BE DISABLED (and doesn't work on turrets, drake/baron, and other objectives). That's why I say not to max it. If it was better, than maybe it could make sense

Kynami7 votes

Just one massive problem with your theory crafting there. Their poke is cheaper than Sona's healing, comes off cool down faster than her healing, and do enormously more damage than her healing can handle during lane phase. Playing passive is simply asking to be walked all over like a carpet. Either you eventually die to a dive or back and fall behind in CS and levels... either way the other side "wins" by default.

Kynami9 votes

If you aren't poking in lane you are giving up lane presence. If you are giving up lane presence your ADC ends up losing CS. Your ADC losing CS leads eventually to being behind at which point you will be 3-4 man dived, lose your tower(s) and have the opposing side go into full snowball mode.

And with her recent rework, Sona has to be ahead to be able to utilize her kit to its potential. If she cannot she is utterly useless for anything but her ultimate for essentially the rest of the game unless you can somehow take advantage of a major misplay by the other team and land a 3+ person ulti.

MAZZ1M011 votes

Sona was reworked in large part because A) Her sustain in lane was annoying to deal with early and B) her power in the mid and late game was largely invisible other than her ultimate. etc.

The problem with that is that the laning phase is foundation for the rest of the game. It's when snowballing begins, it's when leads are had, it's when people win lanes and get turret advantages, etc. The laning phase is crucial, especially for an adc who needs the support. If Sona can't perform as well or better than other supports, bot lane is a liability. Also, the W CD is horrendous as is her mana. She can't sustain for crap. If you have two Lucian's -one paired with Lulu, one paired with Sona, the Lulu side will win. Sona's all-in is crap compared to other supports. CC is non-existent till 6 -by that time their adc will have a lead on yours. The speed steroid is still outclassed by the likes of Karma and Lulu. And the sustain, the thing that made Sona Sona, pre-rework is garbage now. Don't even get me started on what happens if you put a Zyra, Blitzcrank, Thresh, Morgana, or Braum in there. Sona is easily the worst support out there right now because of that.

And yes, a support is a team support, not an adc support. But Sona basically removes reason for an adc to exist as she only does well further into the game. The adc won't be carrying from the usual snowball they're supposed to get (and arguably need) early-on to stay relevant. Adc's are temperamental and item-dependent by nature. There is also the weight you place on the jungler and possibly other lanes that need him.

If you play against the turret, there will come a point when they start getting aggressive. At that point, your jungler has to watch bot specifically because there a Sona there, period. To get to the golden mid-lategame where Sona becomes useful, you need to keep the enemy adc and sup from outfarming or diving with their jungler. That puts too much pressure on half your team when it isn't necessarily the case with other supports unless your opponents are just bad players. Bad players, okay, but post-rework Sona isn't made for laning phase anyway. So it's a constant unless the enemy team is worse. Skill level affects her success in laning phase more than anything and again like everything about her rework she can benefit from, it's a factor that's outside of her control.

Yes, you are the team's support. Your methodology may work well for you, but the rework is fundamentally flawed.

The real question the op should be asking Riot is "What do you want the game to look like?" Because apparently, the game we like, isn't the game they want us to have. They've been making a lot of big changes lately and the game is incredibly different from what it even was back when the season started. They clearly don't like the state of the game, but that means all of the things we like, and all of the things we believe make LoL LoL, are flawed in their eyes and they seem unwilling to compromise on some big things -Sona being one of them. There's over a dozen threads (half of them big ones) on the topic of the Sona rework, most of them being negative. Obviously there are people who like it, but based on the sheer numbers of views, posts, and threadstarts, It's hard to imagine her being a success. Her winrate has dropped. Her pickrate had steadily declined. And Riot has gone dark on all Sona discussion since the last major Sona thread two weeks ago. Now threads are popping up about Soraka everywhere. That is a rework. I don't even use her and holy crap, that is an overhaul.

TLDR: Reworks don't take our opinions into consideration. Riot is like Janus in terms of hearing us out. Sona works for some, but the rework is undoubtedly a failure. Please refer to lolking if you'd like trends.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Yeah, and here we get to the issue. The problem that I'm trying to address and that no one seems to be willing to listen:

Riot ISN'T going to change her. They acknowledge her win rate is dropping. They acknowledge her pick rate isn't leveling out. They respond by increasing the range on her Q, a "usability" buff, but no numbers changes and no attempt to make her laning phase easier.

This happened with Olaf's rework. It happened with Karma's rework. It's happening right now with Cassieopeia. Riot reworks a champion and lets them sit. They assume that players will adjust to the rework after a while and ignore all the initial cries of anger because they ALWAYS happen.

The only time our shouting has ever changed a big rework was the Lee Sin rework. That's it. So here you guys are, making thread after thread like you said and Fearless is ignoring almost all of them. So I'm coming in trying to explain how the rework works and in what ways it is a positive experience for the Sona player and everyone attacks me because Sona is undoubtedly worse. Of course she is. But you have to learn to play what she is now or just stop playing, because all of your cries are going to fall on deaf ears. Sona is not more special or more popular than Olaf, and neither are Sona's players.

RiotFearless22 votes

Hopping in here because I feel like I'm being spoken for, and what's being said here isn't accurate.

The Q change is a bug fix. The range change was never intended, and a range change is one of the last things we'd do to change Sona, as range changes are very disruptive.

As to not changing her, there are changes in test. Those changes might not ever reach live, but we're not ignoring the problems. This is still something I'm working on. There is a lot of value to getting to see how you all talk about Sona without me jumping in. I learn a lot from the discussion you have. If I commented on every Sona thread, it's likely that I warp all Sona discussion. I'm working on finding a balance of making sure you all know that we are listening while letting the discussion actually exist without me. Also need to improve communication that Sona isn't forgotten, but that real and healthy changes to her will take significant testing and iteration.

Happy to get the feedback that this needs to get better. I owe it to you all to keep improving here.

5G8Nri0B5415 votes

If I had to give a suggestion she badly needs, her Q's bonus effect should proc off not just AA, but abilities as well.

This is what makes the old Sona much better than the current one. Whereas the current Sona benefits auto-attackers only, the old one benefits everyone.

It should provide that bonus proc on abilities.

The Yetii Rider19 votes

Far be it from me to speak for you when yours and every reworker's attitude thus far has been "We hear your concerns but we're sure that the players will adjust to the champion after a period of time" and then never talking about it again.

With Olaf, you undertuned him with the rework in patch 3.12, adjusted his statistics a bit in the next patch (reduced health cost on E, higher attack speed from W at earlier ranks but no change at rank 5, and lower mana on Q), then you nerfed him in patch 4.1 and then were dead silent until patch 4.13, when you gave him some slight buffs.

If it takes you a full patch rotation, at least 12 patches, to analyze the data, realize that players aren't adjusting, come up with buffs and then push them to live, why should we have ANY faith in you about Sona? She's my favorite champion, or was, and you removed her core thematic element (constant music playing) along with her core gameplay mechanic (auras) and now you have 10 threads with people avidly arguing that she's weaker and you are dead silent.

You said that you would keep the rework on the PBE for a longer time than usual to make sure that it was right before you shipped it to live, then you shipped it 28 days later.

You said you would keep an open mind about player's feedback while she was on live, and you responded to their feedback by extending the radius of her auras by 50 units, nerfing her heal and messing with her cooldowns.

Your predecessors have given me no evidence that the rework department has any idea what "following up" means. You have shown us nothing to prove that you're listening or that you appreciate our feedback, you just tell us that you do.

I'm cynical because I have no damn reason not to be. You took the closest thing LoL had to a D&D bard and changed the core thematic and the core gameplay without a second thought and a few patches later, surprise surprise her play rate has shot down. People didn't play Sona because she was overpowered, they played her because auras are a cool and different gameplay element and because musical characters are INTERESTING.

But, wait, I'm sorry. I was speaking for you, and I was incorrect in doing so, I guess. I suppose I should offer YOU an apology, shouldn't I? Well, since I'm not trying to cover my screw ups or lead anyone on, then I'll be a good person and apologize. I'm sorry, Fearless, for telling everyone that you're not going to do anything about how much people hate this rework. I will sit back, shut up, and let you get back to not doing anything about it.

MAZZ1M04 votes

Far be it from me to speak for you when yours and every reworker's attitude thus far has been "We hear your concerns but we're sure that the players will adjust to the champion after a period of time" and then never talking about it again.

With Olaf, you undertuned him with the rework in patch 3.12, adjusted his statistics a bit in the next patch (reduced health cost on E, higher attack speed from W at earlier ranks but no change at rank 5, and lower mana on Q), then you nerfed him in patch 4.1 and then were dead silent until patch 4.13, when you gave him some slight buffs.

If it takes you a full patch rotation, at least 12 patches, to analyze the data, realize that players aren't adjusting, come up with buffs and then push them to live, why should we have ANY faith in you about Sona? She's my favorite champion, or was, and you removed her core thematic element (constant music playing) along with her core gameplay mechanic (auras) and now you have 10 threads with people avidly arguing that she's weaker and you are dead silent.

You said that you would keep the rework on the PBE for a longer time than usual to make sure that it was right before you shipped it to live, then you shipped it 28 days later.

You said you would keep an open mind about player's feedback while she was on live, and you responded to their feedback by extending the radius of her auras by 50 units, nerfing her heal and messing with her cooldowns.

Your predecessors have given me no evidence that the rework department has any idea what "following up" means. You have shown us nothing to prove that you're listening or that you appreciate our feedback, you just tell us that you do.

I'm cynical because I have no damn reason not to be. You took the closest thing LoL had to a D&D bard and changed the core thematic and the core gameplay without a second thought and a few patches later, surprise surprise her play rate has shot down. People didn't play Sona because she was overpowered, they played her because auras are a cool and different gameplay element and because musical characters are INTERESTING.

But, wait, I'm sorry. I was speaking for you, and I was incorrect in doing so, I guess. I suppose I should offer YOU an apology, shouldn't I? Well, since I'm not trying to cover my screw ups or lead anyone on, then I'll be a good person and apologize. I'm sorry, Fearless, for telling everyone that you're not going to do anything about how much people hate this rework. I will sit back, shut up, and let you get back to not doing anything about it.

And look! A month later and still no reply from Riot... shocker. :|

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Actually Fearless is working on the Preseason changes, so any and all work he may or may not have been doing on Sona has been kicked to the curb while Stashu continues to work hard to fix Cassieopeia. (Good on you Stashu).

MAZZ1M06 votes

Actually Fearless is working on the Preseason changes, so any and all work he may or may not have been doing on Sona has been kicked to the curb while Stashu continues to work hard to fix Cassieopeia. (Good on you Stashu).

I do know that, but it doesn't necessarily take away from the fact that what most of us predicted went and happened -Sona's stuck like this and Fearless has moved on. I'm not saying his current work is unimportant. I'm really looking forward to the preseason changes -especially the jungle changes, but Sona is still... ugh. And we all figured she would be. :\ The real question at this point is whether or not she will be looked at again for awhile and based on a comment from another Rioter commenting that balance changes weren't going to be focused on during the preseason changes hitting live, I doubt Sona will get a second look until well into next season.

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

Okay. So he was busy ruining the jungle during pre-season 5. Yet, here we are getting close to pre-season 6 and he and Riot as a whole left her abandoned for this whole year. I'm more than happy to say "I told you so." Fearless ruined Sona, tossed her aside and left her to rot, just as predicted.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emmy Cha0s,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2n8M8JVj,comment-id=00030003000000020002000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-01T06:22:01.274+0000)

Okay. So he was busy ruining the jungle during pre-season 5. Yet, here we are getting close to pre-season 6 and he and Riot as a whole left her abandoned for this whole year. I'm more than happy to say "I told you so." Fearless ruined Sona, tossed her aside and left her to rot, just as predicted.

Yep, you were right. Sona has been left in a bad spot all season. It's quite disappointing.

Pika3106 votes

An idea has been itching at the back of my mind and I'm not sure if this is possible or not, but here it is:

Mayhaps the Sona rework be redone completely from scratch, BUT this time have Colt 'Ezreal' Hallam and Steve 'Guinsoo' Feak assigned to co-lead the project. In addition, it would be great if Riot could somehow persuade Miyuki "Shurelia" Mitsuhashi to temporarily be hired on as a freelancing vice-leader to this specific rework.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I certainly know that myself personally and probably at least a few other individuals would each feel greatly at ease knowing that people with a real emotional attachment to Sona were striving to create a new kit that's actually successful. No matter how long it took, even yet an additional 3 months which would equate to 6 months or rather half a year total since this has all begun.

A2ZOMG4 votes

The Q change is a bug fix. The range change was never intended, and a range change is one of the last things we'd do to change Sona, as range changes are very disruptive.

There's something very ironic about this, given auras man.

But to be serious, the primary offender of "THINGS FEEL AWFUL" when it comes to that is Sona's E aura. 350 range is UNACCEPTABLE for a team MS buff unless it's on par with someone like Zilean's. At least with old Sona, though you would rarely get a speed buff greater than 20% lategame (which is equal to the latter half of Sivir's ult), the massive range on it meant you could make a lot of plays with your front line.

New E is...terrible for playmaking outside of reaction dodging skillshots. Lulu's W not only has superior base values and range, it scales harder and at max rank speeds up for a far longer duration.

I would MUCH prefer E having better base values and scaling, and cooldown reduced to 10 seconds (at max rank at minimum) IN EXCHANGE for making the ability cost more mana. You talk about meaningful decisions. Sona's current E just...feels really outclassed, and later in the game after you build Crucible and possibly Censer, your mana costs are just trivialized anyway. Athenes had to be nerfed because we needed SOME windows where Ziggs had to actually wait and stop spamming QWE off cooldown. An increased mana cost on E in exchange for just flat out buffing its other values would easily promote more meaningful decisions on Sona.

In general I sometimes wonder if people forget that mana costs are a legitimate balance tool. Well designed mana costs let you make awesome abilities and ensure that they need to be used meaningfully. Now obviously...there's the observation that manaless champions are KINDA PROBLEMATIC. But see, mana champions would be more meaningful if you made sure they had AWESOME abilities that NEEDED to be limited by mana. Now the other problem is of course mana trivialization via Athenes...

xLife Saver5 votes

When will this bug fix be addressed? I would like to try to play her again when it is fixed. I still doubt I will be satisfied with her as a champion. RIP old, better, and more fun to play Sona.

DreamingOf Peace8 votes

Hey I was in the PBE months ago when Sona was being released and I commented in just about every Sona thread telling you both the numbers and the design of her kit were off. Many others agreed with me, you responded by saying your internal tests were showing Sona as very strong pretty much always winning lane. Yea...I think you should get hire some competent people, or tell your boss to. You should probably hire people who both know how to play LoL and enjoy the game not " yes men".

WeirdingWay5 votes

It's a bit pretentious believe that your presence "warps" Sona discussion. You being here doesn't do something magically to the playstyle experience. It is what it is and people are telling you how they feel about it verbatim. There's nothing your presence that can do to change that. Only your changes to the champ can change that.

Arnai7 votes

Also need to improve communication that Sona isn't forgotten, but that real and healthy changes to her will take significant testing and iteration.

Yes, you really need to improve communication. A starting point might be to stop saying that all the time and actually doing it. If you only want to post really rarely because else you would "warp all Sona discussion" then it's no wonder that you're not communicating well. Because in order to communicate you actually have to communicate! I know it's not easy if you're marked as a VIP and every word you write is put on the scales. But just writing nothing can't be the solution either! Just take me as an example. I basically thought the Sona discussion was dead until i saw this comment at surrender@20. And by all means, i love playing Sona. But if you say you listen, tons of people are discussing tons of stuff about Sonas rework and then ... nothing happens, it just all feels like a waste of time.

Emmy Cha0s6 votes

The Q change is a bug fix.

Most of us believe the reduced range bugs were intentional undocumented nerfs. Considering the rework as a whole has been a failure and severely nerfed her, it's very easy to understand how we got this impression. Especially when you pretended that the initial reduced range didn't even exist for 2 months.

but we're not ignoring the problems.

Yet here we are 20 weeks later and nothing to answer for the drastically large and intentional nerfs to Sona's full kit.

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