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First impressions: The current marksmen changes won't allow non-marksmen to go Bot Lane

CyberBalt·5/2/2018, 6:09:57 PM·42 votes·14,997 views

DISCLAIMER: These are just my initial thoughts, I am fully willing to alter my views if there's a good discussion, and I don't claim to be an expert; just a regular player the same as everyone else.

To me, it looks more like the buildpath of marksmen was changed without actually fixing the problem of them being near-mandatory every game. I am very skeptical these changes will cause non-marksmen bot laners to become a norm, which was the initial goal for midseason. They are still going to be the most consistent, reliable class with the highest DPS. There are still no real competitors to them. Fighters? There's too much counterplay for them; those armors nerfs don't mean anything if you're never going to have the chance to actually hit the adc. Mages? The base stat changes are actually WORSE for mages, because adcs lost armor (which means nothing to a mage) while gaining health.

So, I can't help but feel they just gave up introducing non-marksmen to bot lane and moved on to other goals.

63 Comments

Critmaster Garen5/2/2018, 6:52:07 PM14 votes

so, one note to make.

they said something about support item changes, including support itemization to better support other types of champions than marksmen.

they wanted to make more item equivalents to item 3504 that were specialized on supporting fighters and mages, so a support can actively chose to focus on supporting other carry arechetypes.

your marksman sucks donkey dicks, and your mage/fighter is an animal at their champion, outplaying opponents left and right? the support is supposed to be able to adapt their itemization to play around the other guys instead. this itemization should also be applicabale in mage/support, and fighter/support duo lanes, which would bring us one step closer to bot lane diversity.

maybe this is a second sweep of changes that is still to come. its still pretty early on in the preseason patch even on the pbe. they also announced a new domination keystone that wasnt released yet either. we might only have half of the picture so far, so in this case im giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Manslayer5/2/2018, 6:56:29 PM10 votes

They want adcs to be "mandatory" every game, however, they don't want them to be bursty. The BIGGEST problem with these changes is they don't fix any problems. IE + Double zeal adcs are getting stronger, all others are getting weaker. This means you will see an influx of Caitlyn and the like down there. Ignoring a few fringe cases like Ezreal, and Jhin, who after this patch is going to be the strongest ADC and a must pick/ban every game. Stormrazor scales too well on him, allows him to crit almost every auto attack, if not every auto attack 2 of the 4 of his shots. Finally, any adc that relied on Essence Reaver as a core item are gone, you can NOT pick them. They don't scale well with the double zeal, they can't use stormrazor well, and honestly, they're just bad. So anyone who thinks Lucian is coming back, sorry, he is going even further down (except if he scales really well with Razor, that I don't know).

lastly, bot lane is going to be EXTREMELY snowbally now, I've noticed one thing while playing on the PBE, all you need is like one component over your opponent and you always beat them. Very minimal outplay potential, once you get the holy trinity (your IE plus two zeals or w/e) you always crit so you just faceroll your opponent, if he DOESN'T have that same build you ALWAYS win. Riot, in my opinion, has completely fucked up bottom lane and adcs overall with this change. I am straight quitting this game once the changes come out unless Essence Reaver is reverted to exactly the same MINUS maybe the crit, but in its current state, it aint for the adcs that use it, and my favorite champion, Xayah, will be near unplayable with these changes. As on the PBE, even with 3 items sometimes 4, you do laughably low dmg as a high risk champion.

haaaaaaalp5/2/2018, 6:36:18 PM8 votes

There are two desperate problems right now

  1. marksmen as an archetype are too strong
  2. bot lane as a role is too strong

The itemization will change problem 2 and bring the power of bot lane more in line with mid and top lane. They will not solve the difference in power between marksmen and other archetypes.

MalrothDragonia5/2/2018, 7:07:57 PM4 votes

So if you look through Meddler's red posts he recently talked about that. The expansion of bot-lane to mages is going to be iterative, in that they're going to make smaller-scope changes over time and make sure those changes are tuned with the end-game goal being to that more class archetypes will be viable in the botlane carry position. The mana and marksmen changes are just first steps in getting them to reasonable power levels before trying to alter their fundamental dynamics.

Doozku5/3/2018, 2:18:35 AM4 votes

I was pretty sure that they abandoned the goal of adding diversity into botlane for this midseason. Instead they want to focus on the state of the game as a whole, and the changes to put more classes into botlane would be dolled out as subtle changes overtime as opposed to dumping these massive, volatile meta-shattering changes that could easily backfire in one patch.

Helmight5/3/2018, 5:50:49 AM3 votes

I'm pretty sure that, no matter what Riot did short of removing an entire class of champions, marksmen would still be perceived as mandatory just due to the fact that they're the best objective-taking class in a game about taking objectives, bar none. Even if other classes were playable in the botlane, you'd just see teams field their marksman in a different lane than bot if they chose to run a mage or fighter there.

Riot haven't given up on the stated goals, but I believe Meddler mentioned that it was nigh-impossible to just shoehorn in non-marksmen botlaners without solving some of the systemic issues that make marksmen so strong in lane - hence the current 8.10 changes. After those go out, we'll likely see more work done to try and help other classes feel better about showing up in a duo lane.

xxxMadLionxxx5/2/2018, 6:40:08 PM3 votes

Overall, from what I see, it looks like early game marksmen will have an auto attack poke playstyle with the new AD item every 2.5 seconds. I think this would help them play against mages as they won't have to stand still to auto attack making them vulnerable to getting hit by crowd control from said mage. They will play a bit more like mid lane where you are constantly poking and dodging.

Secondly, they lost a lot of early game auto attack damage in favor of the new essence reaver. The new essence reaver will allow then to utilize spell more, making them function more like auto attacking mages rather than just auto attacking champs.

Overall, if the early game AD damage items nerfs are done right, you should see ADCs use less auto attacks early game and relying more on spells. Kinda like how midlane currently plays out.

iPooUnicorns5/2/2018, 6:17:35 PM2 votes

IIRC Riot had mentioned more Fleet Footwork nerfs, which might help open up bot lane to non-marksmen, but I am still skeptical on whether it will be enough.

ZT Xperimentor5/2/2018, 6:17:48 PM2 votes

They'd be more believable about shoving out marksmen if they brought back the dodge mechanic, lol.

Meep Man5/3/2018, 10:44:47 PM1 votes

I don't think this patch is the Midseason patch though, and they weren't aiming to let these changes make non-Marksman come bottom. That comes later. These changes are just changes to Marksman to make them less aggravating in general and make their class as a whole fit their fantasy better.

Unless I'm wrong, this isn't the Midseason patch and we won't see the plans to add non-Marksman to Bottom Lane this patch. Plus, they said they had a new item they planned to release when that happened I believe which allowed other characters to go Bot.

BestPudgeNA5/2/2018, 11:24:51 PM1 votes

{quoted}

So, I can't help but feel they just gave up introducing non-marksmen to bot lane and moved on to other goals.

I'd go a step further and say they don't give a crap about anything besides bot lane at all.

Yordle Xayah5/3/2018, 12:14:58 AM1 votes

They said they weren't looking to do that anymore for the mid season. Put other classes bot I mean. I thought everyone knew already. They turned that into a long term project.

princeblumpkin5/3/2018, 1:25:49 AM1 votes

I'm still waiting for people to catch on that Mordekaisers strongest lane is still bot lane, but I have a feeling that it won't ever happen because bot lane Morde is just too weird for most people.

Risen295/3/2018, 3:33:48 AM1 votes

{quoted}

To me, it looks more like the buildpath of marksmen was changed without actually fixing the problem of them being near-mandatory every game

That's by design. They've been mandatory since season 1. Nobody was complaining about that. People were complaining about the fact that they dominate the game too early, earlier than they use to.

I am very skeptical these changes will cause non-marksmen bot laners to become a norm, which was the initial goal for midseason.

Says who? The goal of the current marksmen changes is not to open it up bottom to non-marksmen, but to make it easier for other roles to carry the mid game.

Dark Nephthys5/3/2018, 5:39:27 AM1 votes

I could see some non-ADC going bot lane, mainly being Kennen and maybe even TwistedFate though yea, most non-adcs won't be going bot. I would say that Corki might see some play back in bot lane as well though.

xelaker5/3/2018, 1:32:06 PM1 votes

I think the whole, lets let anyone go bot thing is a ways off. Wasn't this just supposed to reign in adcs a bit?

Kairoptra5/3/2018, 8:15:50 PM1 votes

Well, there hasn’t been any recent talk of it, so I’m inclined to believe that those changes may be still on the way.