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Let’s not forget about Jarvan.

fakelink·1/20/2015, 4:51:53 PM·20 votes·2,984 views

If anyone has been keeping up with Korean Esports (which you should, the play/mechanics are amazing) you will have noticed that in 90% of games we are seeing lee sin and Jarvan. There is a lot of backlash against lee sin at the moment (and well deserved) but not much has been said about Jarvan. Flag drop, drag, Cataclysm + glowing circle burst thing = most fed carry dead. Flag drop, drag, Cataclysm + glowing circle burst thing = almost certain gank death… In terms of the Jungle both Lee Sin and Jarvan share the role where they are perfect in any team comp against any team comp, there is no reason to not pick them and there is no way to punish the other team from picking them. Riot if you really want jungle diversity you cannot have champions which are god tier in all comps. If you are really set on keeping blights like lee and jarvan the way they are then give more bans, Imagine if both sides got 5 bans… (or 6!)

39 Comments

ValyrianBlade1/20/2015, 5:12:57 PM14 votes

Against a team comp with lots of dashes, jarvan 4 isn't great. Dodge the knock up on his q and his gank is basically over without his ult. Use your dash/flash/jump/escape to get out of his cataclysm and you're fine.

I've played enough caitlyn against j4 back when I was a caitlyn main to know that I can rip him to shreds if I save my net to escape his arena rather than using it to try to kite him or Dodge his q (keep your distance to dodge q, don't use your net until after he ults you).

Now that I play jinx he's a lot harder to deal with, but I just throw down chompers inside the arena and fight from inside until it's down and run away while he's snared (then shoot a zap! For good measure). He's definitely numerically strong and works well with a lot of teams, but I think this is a case of other junglers needing buffs rather than j4 needing nerfs.

XxxLumberJackxxX1/20/2015, 5:27:53 PM11 votes

the glowing circle burst thing is a shield that does no dmg and has crap scaling. FYI.

Also- Jarvans damage when built full ad is better than zeds. Also- Jarvans usefulness when build tanky is hard to beat Also- Jarvans ultimate is almost not buggy anymore. ALmost.

The Red Warden1/20/2015, 8:49:04 PM5 votes

If you are gonna talk about game balance please at least look up what each cmapion's kit does first.

Yes Jarvan and Lee sin are both problematic right now but personally I believe Lee is more problematic due to his overloaded kit while J4 is too strong because of the item changes. Lee sin just has a kit with barely any failing that has almost everything he would ever need. J4 did receive buffs but what pushed him over the edge was mainly the item/jungle changes which benefited him above others. Notice how he has only been a top pick for the past few months while Lee has been a top pick for 3+ years?

A generalist champion (ex: Gangplank) is one that sacrifices specific strengths for the ability to decently cover more aspects. Jack of all trades master of none. The problem with champions like J4 and Lee is that they are able to cover almost all of the bases while still excelling over others in their own signature aspects.

Terra Booma1/20/2015, 10:02:25 PM3 votes

You want to nerf Jarvan? Fine

Make it so Vayne can't tumble out of his ult

we have a deal

Silents4291/20/2015, 11:57:02 PM3 votes

This post is stupid.

"If anyone has been keeping up with Korean Esports (which you should, the play/mechanics are amazing) you will have noticed that in 90% of games we are seeing lee sin and Jarvan."

  • Thats because unlike most junglers Jarvan is one of the few that can keep up with him, Tune Lee down, and watch J4 usage go down.

"There is a lot of backlash against lee sin at the moment (and well deserved) but not much has been said about Jarvan. Flag drop, drag, Cataclysm + glowing circle burst thing = most fed carry dead. Flag drop, drag, Cataclysm + glowing circle burst thing = almost certain gank death…"

  • What in the hell kind of games are you having? You didn't mention anywhere where if Jarvan ults he traps himself in with anyone who hasn't already gotten out with a flash or escapes, that majority of champions have, Not to mention the fact he has to do his ult correctly or he risks trapping his team in with them causing backlash, and costing a team fight.

  • In order for Jarvan to be dealing any significant damage he is required to get off his full combo, or he screws everything up and messes it up, failing his gank. Unlike Lee Sin, If Jarvan screws up his Q + E he has no escape That is counterplay, that is a risk, that makes him balanced. He screws up a combo, all he can do is whack someone with an AA, until his hefty cooldowns (E is like 10 seconds)

  • How is Jarvans ganks any better then Nautilus, or Maokais, Or any other tank jungler, Jarvan has 1 slow, 1 knockup, and a trap. OOOOO he is SOOOOO loaded NERF HIM NOW RITO! A tank with utility? By god.

"In terms of the Jungle both Lee Sin and Jarvan share the role where they are perfect in any team comp against any team comp, there is no reason to not pick them and there is no way to punish the other team from picking them. "

  • This is stupid, Jarvan works best in a team comp that already has initiation, his own is somewhat lousy, he works best in team comps where he can followup on an initiation, he doesn't work in a team comp that can kite him, or has blinks, or dashes (Again like most champions being played right now)

"Riot if you really want jungle diversity you cannot have champions which are god tier in all comps. If you are really set on keeping blights like lee and jarvan the way they are then give more bans, Imagine if both sides got 5 bans… (or 6!)"

  • Yes, Keeping Lee Sin another god tier champion for another damn season is a nono, Thinking Jarvan is somehow in the same position really screams your ignorance on the entire matter, You obviously have no idea what is happening other then thinking that because a champion is highly played like another one, he MUST be overpowered. Jarvan has clear exploitable weaknesses, downsides and upsides, and decent but not to high skill cap. He is easy to learn hard to master, and by master I mean not screwing up your combos that you can easily do, or screwing up your ult.
FalconPawwwwnch1/20/2015, 6:35:52 PM3 votes

Outside of OGN J4 is better than Lee Sin in every way possible

Easier to use More forgiving Better Late Game due to aoe armor shred and AOE AS steroids, Lee Sin's late game is trash since he lost his AS slow

CalciferHowel1/20/2015, 7:21:06 PM2 votes

Here is the thing, you have described Jarven blowing full combos of mana based abilities just to gank. Comparing that to Lee, having 7 abilities to trigger, gated only by time, and even that is low thanks to his passive, (as compared to Zed, or Shen,) this gives him short cooldowns compared to Jarven, and a more free damage to risk ratio. Also, while J4 is strong, he is lacking some things that other junglers have at their disposal, which is a quick escape after an engage, so he HAS to commit to any gank, something Lee, often times doesn't have to do. Truthfully, the only thing that J4, as I see it, can do better than anyone is armor shred, which has it's uses, but due to how itemization works and the current state of the meta, isn't necessarily required.

I'd say J4 is strong, but only to contend with some of his opponents that are equally, if not more so.

Tis a nice day1/20/2015, 8:10:31 PM2 votes

As a J4 jungle main, shh~

LankPants1/21/2015, 3:40:00 AM2 votes

The difference is that Lee's been a pick/ban support for 3 years now, J4's only been there for 3 patches.

lDontLiftIcarry1/21/2015, 1:20:43 AM2 votes

Jarvan is the most balanced utility champ in the game at the moment

what are you talking about?

I bet you're the type of player that supports the alistar W headbutt rework that gutts his W. Not gonna argue with wierdies though

Rinky Dinky1/20/2015, 7:18:27 PM2 votes

I honestly think Jarvan is only so popular because he can keep up with Lee Sin.

If Lee Sin was to be balanced, i'm sure Jarvan would not be as popular.

If that turns out to be wrong, then some adjustments to Jarvan would be needed as well I suppose. Perhaps less damage for the very large amount of utility he provides.

femmé1/21/2015, 1:47:36 AM1 votes

yeah i agree, ever since chilling smite his ganks are pretty much 100% confirmed even if they have a dash you can get it off in enough time. i've decided to ban j4 every time now because he's so stupid with chilling smite imo.

SlackerboyTC1/21/2015, 1:50:31 AM1 votes

Well i'd rather get my ass kicked by jarvan than lee simply because jarvan had to use mana to beat me isntead of fast regen energy

Chessburger1/21/2015, 1:52:10 AM1 votes

He's a common ban in europe for a reason: http://www.lolking.net/champions/jarvaniv&region=euw&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond#statistics

RadiantWings1/21/2015, 5:52:52 AM1 votes

Jarvan IV jungle is one of those characters that's just sort of broken with how the game works. You could Zhonya's or build a banshee's against some of the other stupidly long distance dash gankers like Vi. When Jarvan is in the game however, basically any immobile champion became gank fodder once they blow their 300 cooldown second flash vs Jarvan's 120 second cooldown ult.

I personally think that Jarvan's presence as a jungler (not as a top laner) is one of the most toxic things in league and still a major contributing factor to the non-viability of most immobile single-lane champions.

Knight Devout1/21/2015, 3:43:39 PM1 votes

Because the issues are different. J4 was a dominant pick in the past, and was nerfed. They will nerf him (or buff him) accordingly to the situation if there will be the need. J4 has plenty of leverage to tune him properly, passive AS on E, arpen % on Q, shield on W (HINT: the shield has good base value because it doesn't scale with anything), but, most importantly he doesn't have an overzealous playerbase who think they are god on earth for playing a champion with a single skillshot, and who will backlash at the slightest hint of a nerf.

BITE ZA DUSTO1/20/2015, 7:18:27 PM1 votes

I'm not sure if they should nerf j4 or buff every other jungle to his lvl

Remlap12231/20/2015, 7:21:30 PM1 votes

J4 doesn't need to be touched until armor pen is reworked. If he is still reigning top after that, I'd consider LIGHT nerfs with compensation buffs on his W. J4 is a perfectly healthy champion, and doesn't need to be gutted for rework priority like other champs I know.

Cough LeeSin cough.

Alpharite1/20/2015, 7:24:52 PM1 votes

Yes, let's nerf every single jungler. Every one. And their children. KILL THEM ALL

Kalarepa1/20/2015, 9:52:31 PM1 votes

Mmm I remember release Jarvan. I would just stack gp/10 items with awful combat stats and still destroy 90% champions on my lane.

Crispian1/20/2015, 10:40:48 PM1 votes

I'd like to point out that, from my experience, J4 is experiencing more play, especially in the competitive scene, due to the changes to the jungle in 5.0. Recent patches have been.. harsh... on jungle gold and xp (though riot seems to be moving towards increasing such gains in 5.1), and J4 retains usefulness in a jungle where many level dependent junglers can't keep up. Ignoring the damage the new jungle does to junglers, assassin junglers like Kha/Rengar really need to keep up in levels as well as gold in order to effectively assassinate squishy targets - being on equal levels with only a support tends to hurt target selection - but Jarvin's kit innately overcomes this problem. He can build straight tank after warrior enchantment, and his kit gives him a slow, consistent cc with initiation, and an ult that can be devastating in the right comps.

On a related note, I'd say J4 is a healthier target for riot to have in terms of balancing junglers. He doesn't have the same problems inherent in his kit that the community sees in Lee Sin, and maintains a healthy relevance in most jungle metas (For example, for most of the lee-elise-eve meta we saw during a large portion of Season 4, J4 was still viable in solo que and was a very close second tier jungler if the the aforementioned power trio were targeted out). To me, that feels like a healthy standard to bring other junglers up to, not something that requires nerfing, as his recent popularity rises from his utility even when behind levels, as up until 5.1 was extremely common in the new jungle.

JJI7441/20/2015, 11:01:46 PM1 votes

People are focused on Lee because Lee has been top-tier for 3(?) seasons now. Basically we are all tired of seeing Lee in every-other match.

Wizzleboom1/20/2015, 11:16:11 PM1 votes

I'd rather fight a Jarvan than a Lee Sin. The issue is his mobility combined with 350 base movespeed. Wtf is that crap? Even Garen only has 345 base. like wtf.

Balderdash10001/21/2015, 12:10:19 AM1 votes

Don't worry my friend. I'm sure that there are already J4 nerfs coming down the pipeline. After all, any jungler that can keep up with Lee Sin has to be OP! We wouldn't want any attention diverted from our golden child, would we?

Boulderox1/21/2015, 12:26:35 AM1 votes

yet a jarvans lvl 2 ganks aren't as EVIL as lee sin lvl 2 invades. SUCH BM But Jarvan is a strong pic. had a match where he was singling me out every time and i was a fed adc sivir. I couldn't do anythin and it was thrown from there

ApplyForAGrant1/21/2015, 1:00:12 AM1 votes

J4 is less problematic than Lee since he can be easily balanced by tuning down his damage or shield.

On the other hand, no nerfs short of removing 2 mechanics or more from Lee will bring him down from top tier.