RIOT, TALK TO US ABOUT VEIGAR. PLEASE.

MasterOfTheOrder·2/20/2015, 5:14:06 AM·36 votes·1,755 views

These changes are NOT compensation, they are a MASSIVE nerf. And other than confirming they are happening, there hasn't been a red post explaining how Veigar doesn't get completely destroyed during laning.

Please, explain. I play Veigar, I know how he works. You just removed his ONLY escape, and his ONLY way of landing his W. You've said you're "working" on communication skills, so COMMUNICATE.

If this comes off aggressive, tell me so and I'll tone it back. But simply ignoring this thread as well as the rest of them will NOT make ANYONE less aggravated.

To be clear, after testing his new kit, Veigar is bad. Straight up. Yes, he has stats, but at the same time he only has 2 abilities that are remotely reliable.

25 Comments

Zarxis2/20/2015, 7:38:16 PM13 votes

Riot did respond. Meddler told us that Veigar's E is unhealthy, and that the changes for Veigar in 5.4 are locked.

"The Veigar changes for 5.4 are locked. Directionally we believe a delay on Veigar's E is essential to making Veigar healthy (so that we can be happy if he's >strong and popular, rather than definitely having to nerf him if that happens). If that delay does prove to be too long we'll reduce it, given it's much harder to >shut Veigar's laning down given the extra range and shorter CD on his Q however that delay's our best estimate on appropriate for the upcoming patch."

In other words,

We refuse to acknowledge that Veigar's E being instant was necessary for his W to hit enemy champions. We refuse to acknowledge that Veigar is immobile and has only one way to save himself from enemy champions— his E's stun. The balance team doesn't give half a shit about Veigar being ruined by these changes because he isn't mobile, and therefore, he doesn't matter. Praise be to Lee Sin; may the Blind King of LC$ Big Play$ reign forever.

I'm obviously exaggerating things slightly, but in all seriousness, Riot needs to realize that immobile champions should have far more room in their power budgets than mobile ones. Giving mobile champions true weaknesses in exchange for their extreme utility and penchant for being able to get into and out of whatever situations they choose is a long-overdue project, much like the Fighter Rework (which still hasn't happened) and Dragonmaster Swain.

LANWhale2/20/2015, 5:49:35 AM7 votes

First off, calm down. Lets not assume that there going to leave him in this state.

As for any confirmation if this is going threw, it is indeed. Everything we saw in the PBE is going live, Meddler has confirmed this. So prepare your self next patch.

As much as I really hate the Vegar "change", personally a nerf, it does do its job quite well. The hole point of the change is to allow Veigar to receive nerfs and buffs without any worry if he becomes broken or unplayable. Seeing him int his state really hurts me, to see such a classic champion with a pretty unique theme. The old Veigar kit was hard to buff or nerf without completely destroying the Champion, as we can see with the current state of Veigar.

Over all, Veigar will be missed and probably not see any play until 5.5. But he is just a new play style, which means we can adopt, as a person who loves Veigar and is my go to mage mid. There is still hope for the tiny master of evil.

There is always a light at the end of the tunnel, we must reach it first though.

Romans VI XXIII2/20/2015, 5:46:18 AM4 votes

HERE HERE!!

Learn 2 Swim2/20/2015, 10:57:42 AM4 votes

Riot: "if it aint lee sin go fk yourself"

MasterOfTheOrder2/20/2015, 7:30:29 PM4 votes

Have you even tried him on the PBE? It sounds like you haven't. I have. His E and W are COMPLETELY unreliable (unless you're using his W on minions).

Yes, his Q is better. I don't disagree. But the change that allows him to kill 2 minions instead of one was un-needed. It doesn't make him viable. Without a solid means to escape, he's a squishy slow mage with very little HP. He WILL die. There is not a way to prevent this, unless you're against incompetent people. If playing against bad players is all it takes to convince you that his E is useful, then you and I are done with this discussion.

I'm aware I'm currently coming off as aggressive, but that's because… again…. THERE AREN'T ANY RED POSTS! There doesn't look like there will be, either. They are too busy planning who to nerf next to "compensate" for the loss of DFG. I OPENLY WELCOME ANY RED TO CONSTRUCTIVELY TELL ME OTHERWISE. I'm open to reason here. Veigar currently plays on the PBE like an incredibly bad Cassiopeia, only without 4 useful abilities, and no means of escape.

This change was supposed to BUFF Veigar. If Riot had said "We hate Veigar, we're nerfing him because he's unhealthy to the Gameplay of LoL", I'd understand. But that's not what they said. These changes make him undesirable, and unplayable.

Trídent2/21/2015, 1:30:10 AM4 votes

Yeah... give us an explanation. There were tons of complaints against Veigar's "buff," in both live and PBE boards... and yet you ignore all of that feedback and decide to lock the patch? 10/10 Communication. Definitely.

BallisticMouse2/20/2015, 9:40:43 AM3 votes

This is why they're not talking about it.

They didn't "remove" his escape or his only way of landing W, it's more difficult but don't call it removed.

Riot has said they want to jump in on constructive conversations, while they still avoid those, this is definitely more of a complaint thread if anything.

AbiwonKenabi2/20/2015, 7:28:20 PM2 votes

Both myself and a Diamond mid main I know have gotten our hands on Veigar and I think "completely destroyed" is an exaggeration. His new stun takes some getting used to, but its now more about trapping someone rather than actually stunning them. I'm not yet sure if it needs a buff or not...I personally had trouble with it, but my Diamond friend played him for several games and was really getting the hang of it. I think his E was never really an "escape" so much as a "peel" and it can still work like that. I play a lot of Nami, and I find that his E can help peel for yourself if you put it on yourself, kind of like a Nami bubble--and I don't think anybody is complaining about Nami's bubble delay. Its a really good skill, and Veigar's E is now similar, imo.

Second, his Q is way easier to farm with. You can now harass AND last hit with it thanks to its new double hit. Getting stacks on his Q is just much easier, and his AP gets pretty huge fairly quickly if you use it well. My Diamond friend thinks its less effective in teamfights though, overall just awkward to use in big fights. All in all, its not bad, its a fine change, and you no longer need vision to land it, which is nice.

Lastly, the straight up buffs on W are appreciated. Not really much to say there.

I think I like the direction they are going, I just don't know if he is quite there yet. He may need some extra buffs or changes, but the balancing levers are there: you can increase his stun range without worrying about the effects of an instant stun, or buff his other abilities more for compensation. My conclusion: its more of a wait and see. I like some of the changes, but I agree he may need more power somewhere still. If more people get a hold of him, we might see what his power is at.

Also, recently, Riot has been better about getting back to big changes, like they did with Cass (who I think is in a solid place balance-wise, seeing competitive play without being totally over-bearing).

Killer X 122/20/2015, 11:43:47 PM2 votes

Your tits, cool them.

SmokingPuffin2/20/2015, 5:31:42 PM2 votes

Comes off as pretty aggressive.

there hasn't been a red post explaining how Veigar doesn't get completely destroyed during laning.

They have found his new Q is a big buff to his laning. Actually he is farming so well now that they had to nerf the R AP ratio, because he's getting more stacks more reliably.

To be clear, after testing his new kit, Veigar is bad. Straight up. Yes, he has stats, but at the same time he only has 2 abilities that are remotely reliable.

It's totally possible. E was the best button in the game and now it isn't.

If he is weak, expect W buffs in a future patch.

The first patch after a rework usually has the champion in a nowhere near balanced state. Either it's Ahri, or it's Cassiopeia. Both of those champs are looking pretty appropriately strong now, though, so I wouldn't be too discouraged if Veigar is bad for a patch or two. I mean, he's been bad for years, right?

Kingsgrave2/20/2015, 3:33:26 PM2 votes

Meddler said that the delay on E is necessary and is going to stay. He also said that if he needs buffs after this they will give him them.

Calm down.

MasterOfTheOrder4/26/2015, 11:05:54 PM1 votes

I'm bumping this because I was correct, and Veigar is bad now. All the posts saying "they will buff him, calm your tits" were wrong.

No buffs. His w can't hit enemy champions, and his e is mostly useless.

chumbler2/21/2015, 9:43:57 PM1 votes

Meddler is dumb as shit just like the rest of the balance team, and the response Riot gave on Veigar was "lol fuck you, pick Zed instead". Don't expect anything except exactly what happened with the godawful Cass rework to happen to Veigar. He'll get stupid as shit buffs because Riot made him less balanceable now for a single patch, then get nerfed to an even worse state.

This is not the work of a competent balance team. And I don't care if I'm "coming off as aggressive" because they don't listen if you do anything else either.

Crett2/20/2015, 12:53:22 PM1 votes

IMO one change they should make is revert the cooldown increase on Q. I know it double hits now, but maaaaaaaaaan

GloriousKaiser2/22/2015, 3:30:47 AM1 votes

They'll talk alright.

Oh they'll have an Reddit AMA.

One where they can get Reddit feedback which is basically them complimenting Riot.

One where it will be AFTER the changes have gone through and there's no chance for you to convince them of anything.

One where they get to pick the questions to answer and give their nice little commentaries without dispute.

Rinky Dinky2/20/2015, 9:23:27 AM1 votes

They did talk about it

Preacher Saiba2/21/2015, 1:24:34 AM1 votes

lol i mean the intense caps lock is preeety aggrssive

Darth Pixy Misa2/21/2015, 1:28:01 AM1 votes

At least there was a dialog with Stashu, who is working on this Veigar Nerf?