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Latest on Cassiopeia

RiotRiot Stashu·11/7/2014, 4:16:02 AM·47 votes·101,177 views

EDIT: Cassiopeia should be in the next PBE build! We're looking to get these changes into 4.21.

Hey guys, sorry I've been afk for so long! I've been waiting to get some PBE feedback. I'm finally able to make that happen now that 4.20 launched, so let's get to it =D

I think we had some amazing conversations in this thread. We're keeping the changes to a medium scope for this patch, but I think we've gone a long way in the right direction.

Our thinking for this current changelist is

  • Bring back poison as a core part of Cassiopeia's damage profile
  • Curb the overly exaggerated hyper carry curve so that she can function early game
  • A few different things are happening here, like adding straight damage to her early game with the Twin Fang debuff, increasing Twin Fang's ratio early game, and increasing Q's movement speed boost early game. We're also bringing down her late game a touch with some of these changes, but her DPS should still be off the charts.

Looking further into the future, hopes are to turn Aspect of the Serpent bonuses into more exciting, lateral-power points instead of super direct boosts to power which make it feel as if Cassiopeia can't be strong until 30 minutes into the game. There was some pretty serious brainstorming towards this end, and it was a huge help for thinking about where we could take the passive, and that was super awesome.

However, for now, here's what you can expect for 4.21:

  • Aspect of the Serpent
  • No longer stacks on poisoned unit kill or on Twin Fang casts on enemy champions.
  • Now, stacks once every 6 seconds (10 times per minute) and for every second that an enemy champion is poisoned.
    • Stack breakpoints adjusted to 100 / 250 / 500. Overall, these are hit sooner than the old 75/200/400 based on the new mechanics, but are definitely still up for discussion.
  • Noxious Blast
  • Delay changed to actually function as intended (previously hitting between 0.25 and 0.5s). Now has a 0.4s delay.
    • With the reliability changes, it was a bit too reliable, so we set the delay at 0.4.
  • Movement speed buff changed to a flat 20% (from 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30%).
  • Twin Fang
  • Mana cost changed to 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 / 75 (from 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90)
  • ** Now adds a debuff on the target which amplifies further poison damage by 25% for 5 seconds, stacks up to 2 times (50%). **
  • Ratio changed to 0.55 (from 0.4/0.45/0.5/0.55/0.6)
    • Since we're adding damage elsewhere on the kit (mostly through this debuff), we decided to take a bit out of Twin Fang's late game.

975 Comments

Serpents Embrace11/7/2014, 4:26:21 AM67 votes

"We read the problems you all had with the rework - here are some changes that don't address them."

Smartsize11/7/2014, 4:26:35 AM37 votes

I feel like these changes only punish people for not playing perfectly. Yes, the mana cost and damage adjustments are there. However, the damage nerf is just ANOTHER example of you tacking on a mechanic and then gutting a base stat to justify it. And that's not including the fact that in order for it to do that damage that you adjusted for, you have to land 2 E's, which means you're only gonna get AT MOST 1 tick of the boosted damage. Seems hardly fair.

And about my first point, how it punishes for imperfect play: Unless you land a Q, EEE, Q again perfectly, your damage plummets. It plummets to levels LOWER than on live, AND you just spent 30 MORE mana doing it!

I feel like you are tuning for a perfect-case scenario and trying to add so much into her kit that you keep nerfing her to make up for it. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

EDIT: Unbiased Math!

If you do the math, a poison with 2 E poison buffs will do 315 + (.675), which has more base damage but less scaling than pre-rework Cassio (just for reference). It DOES do SIGNIFICANTLY more damage on live, at the cost of 15 mana early at level 2 or 3, 10 mana with Level 2 E, but at level 5 E, actually saves 20 mana from live, yet your damage is increased!

However, taking into account that the first tick will do only the original damage, and the 2nd tick will only do 1.25x that damage, this is actually lower. To get the full poison effect would require casting another Q, which would then increase the mana required to actually increase your damage by 45.

TL;DR on Math: Early game saves 20 mana for easy harass that does more than Live, but for full effect, requires 45 extra mana over live.

RiotRiot Stashu11/8/2014, 2:57:17 AM22 votes

Hey ya'll. A little update:

Here's what I'm happy with: Moving Q ms to a static number, though I think it might be a bit strong, having that kiting ability early on feels really good. Also, 0.4s delay seems to be just as dodgeable/hittable as we're looking for, so that's good too. Poison amp on E is testing well, and the mana restore being back feels pretty as well. I think I overtuned her mana numbers a bit, so I'll probably be buffing those (reducing them).

Now, about the less pleasing stuff: I've heard you all loud and clear about how 1) it feels like a shackle until it's finally lifted, and 2) stats are boring. So, been going a little deeper on that stuff. Today, I spent quite a bit of time experimenting with sexier rewards for the passive breakpoints. I've tried a number of things, like adding the mana refund passive into an Aspect of the Serpent breakpoint, moving the MS boost from Q into an early passive breakpoint (more specifically, Cassiopeia gains 25% ms for 3 seconds after poisoning an enemy champion), moving the poison amp on E in there, other crazier stuff like cast time shortening, subsequent E's cost less mana (kind of liked that one), E extends poison duration, etc.

A lot of them expressed some problems that I expected individually, but I figured it'd be worth trying anyway. Generally, the "move mechanic from one part of kit into passive" method worked the best, since adding new sexy mechanics to the kit really just overloads the kit with mechanics, and that just feels bad. Unfortunately, not having access to core mechanics-- mechanics that inform your combat pattern-- until the x'th minute creates even more of the feeling that "this passive is a shackle, I just want my base power at the start of the game." I think the healing on Twin Fang is a good example of a mechanic which is not core, is sufficiently attractive, and changes decision making in minor yet appreciable ways. Ultimately, the heal there is very stat-like (spell vamp), but it comes across in an interesting way. I didn't really understand why this mechanic really seemed to fit in the passive, especially compared to the other breakpoints, but now I think I've got a good hold on it, which should help with brainstorming future changes.

ALSO As a general observation, all of the late game focused stuff we've done for the kit, though powerful, doesn't really allow Cassiopeia to take over a game as much as we originally expected (kit limitations, as many people have brought up, like no dash/blink and unreliable CC really diminish the effectiveness of damage-oriented late game strengths more than we expected them to). Of course, she's still pretty damn good come late game, but a little bit less so than originally projected. Accordingly, there's even more room to bolster that early game. We still don't want the Only-Q-All-Day-And-Win Cassiopeia lane bully back, but there's plenty of room here to find a good place for her, especially with some of the changes we've made since the original update. Basically, Cassiopeia should feel comparable in strength to other mid laners, with her high, consistent, single target DPS as how she expresses her power in the late game (just like other mids have their own unique way of expressing power in the late game-- Ziggs can clear waves, Syndra can 1-shot a guy, etc.).

Alright, that's all for now. Cheers!

Grand Eleven11/8/2014, 9:54:51 PM19 votes

EDIT: please read replies as there has been very good input to mature this idea

I've been trying to avoid repeating myself across the various threads, now that his has been stickied hopefully a cohesive conversation will be easier. That said as topics are varied enough and post length limits real enough, I'll likely have multiple posts :)

For the first time I've heard you mention that if you can't make the passive work you may ditch it. Honestly that excited me. Yeah, I hate it that much. I went back to the Shurima lore movie you released (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKnM6Hh5gOg), I double checked her old lore ... this is a curse. It doesn't make sense what-so-ever that she should build in power, ascend, or evolve in any way shape or form. If we combine that with the massive power budget that passive has (repeatedly demonstrating as controlling nearly all of her power), and I'm practically begging you to please get rid of it.

That said, lets see how we can make it work ;)

(I know I know, but in the interest of compromise lets see how we can transform this into a concept that fits).

Here's how I see it: thematically Cass is newly transformed, maybe discovering her body and what it can do constantly. To this end, rather than raw power being granted, abilities being "unlocked" would be more fitting. To take it even further, what if the unlocking of these new abilities affected her gameplay ... much like how someone like Lee Sin starts as an early game bruiser and ends as tanky utility? If we can emulate that (not the roles, but rather the changing of roles as the game progresses) we might be able to emulate the "feel" of Cassiopeia growing into her own body and "discovering" her new role on the battlefield.

Rather than granting AP (yeah we strip that part entirely for theme reasons), we change her stacks to do have poison damage amplification debuff (shift that from E onto the passive). The amount that poison is amplified should scale for the first two breakpoints as the old E would have stacked (25% 50% or we can adjust this up/down if we feel full poison duration amplification is too strong because of poke power going up). In addition to the poison amp at "2nd stage", poison duration should be doubled. At the final breakpoint twin fang now consumes the debuff on the target to deal 75% of the poison potential full DOT as burst. Basically:

  • Landing Q/W applies a debuff that increases damage by 25%
  • Deuff damage increased to 50%, poison duration is now doubled (this is a massive jump, might need to tweak a bit down)
  • Twin fang now consumes debuff to apply 75% of potential DoT damage as burst (debuff ... not the poison so poison still ticks but at original damage rate).

By eventually putting tons of damage into her poison we now have a Cassi who's playstyle will change over time. Early game, her poison just doesn't do enough damage, so it's just a gateway to E-spam with her familiar Q,EEEE pattern. Like a baby rattle snake biting like crazy. However, as the game progresses gradually her best form of damage will evolve into Q and W placement and letting the victims slowly drain away ... and simply saving that E spam for as a finishing move (consume that poison early for a burst of damage and drop an injured foe). Extending poison duration will be needed to make this work as an end game cassi will need to be able to keep poisons up until she's ready to E a target ... and while YES: this brings back her safe DoT burning ... it won't surface until end-game when she's supposed to be a hyper-carry anyway and some kind of safe poking is needed ... as you said yourself she can't dominate a fight right now as she has no tools even when her AP breaks 1000.

So there's my vision for a Cassi. Instead of evolving it's more of a snake lady that comes into her own form twin fangs to poison application ... and the poison application is now gated until mid/late game so she can't abuse it to be a lane bully early which solves a lot of the DoT problems.

Thryale11/7/2014, 5:15:29 AM19 votes

Stashu, you seem to have forgotten about cass's W.

"No change" is clearly unacceptable. This is cass's only dissengage/zoning tool pre-6 and is supposed to be a 1-point wonder skill. But currently it's more like a 1-point blunder. doing 10 dmg per sec is abysmal, especially since it ticks 2 times a second, causing it's apparent dmg to be even less, and even more so once you factor in enemy mr. Most enemies are left competely unpeturbed at simply sitting in her W to farm as it no longer poses any real threat to them. Against cass in lane, a 20% slow is laughable, and only really dangerous if you so happen to be a melee champ that has shoved her under tower.

Before her rework, the decent ap ratio and better base dmg meant that it wasn't bad as a zoning tool. But now, unless you are actually winning your lane (guess what, yer not, cuz hyper carries aren't allowed to win their lanes) then your opponent will practically ignore it, and if you try to trade with them for free E's they'll just slap you in the face with their harass before you even get into range.

If you are entirely opposed to increasing the dmg it does, then have you considered a stacking slow or MR shred? Something to make the opponent think twice about sitting in her death kiddy pool.

Sweetie Brella11/7/2014, 4:33:16 AM18 votes

Great, the passive stacks up slightly faster. Now how about giving us a real benefit that doesn't require us to jump through even more hoops?

I've already explained this, but the CDR is just a pointless on Cass and is only there because you nerfed the CD on Q. E takes way too long to sustain anything meaningful and the bonus AP requires you to pretty much bend your entire build to it.

We need something that gives us a bonus that same way other stat gainers do, not this "nice job taking all those risks, but now you have to be just as risky to get anything out" BS.

ImpendingDeath11/7/2014, 4:53:49 AM18 votes

Cassiopeia's stacking passive is utterly boring, uninspired, and cheap. If you wanted to achieve a weaker early game, couldn't you just adjust the base damage and/or ratios of her abilities and have them increase with each rank of the ability? It would accomplish a similar goal without this chore of a passive that I personally find to be the most underwhelming part of her abilities.

5G8Nri0B5411/7/2014, 6:24:22 AM16 votes

edit: WHOOPS

This first section is my direct response to these changes, and the second section is some of my grievances with this rework as a whole, questioning some decisions, a reply to some of the stuff you've said in the past, etc

The prime issue with this rework is that, no matter how hard you're trying to salvage it's wreckage, it's overall direction plays a huge part in how bad it is.

Here is what I get from your rework. Cassiopeia is now a "SINGLE-TARGET HYPER-CARRY WHOSE DAMAGE POTENTIAL IS ALL LOADED INTO HER SHORT RANGED TWIN FANGS(E)"

Now it's entirely possible that only ONE of those things above is a problem, and it's problems resulted in the problems in her other problematic areas. But as it is, my disdain for the rework is pretty accurately summed up in that quote above.

Hyper-Carry: This direction is very questionable. She was never a Hyper-Carry before, why decide to suddenly make her into one? While a Hyper-Carry can be fun IF you make it to your Hyper-Carry mode, the issue here is playing as one is unfun as hell early-mid, unless you're Tristana, who feels like she has NO weak moments at all. Hyper-Carry just feels really shitty, especially in SoloQ where the only thing more unpredictable than your enemies is your own allies ability to adjust to your champion's needs.

SINGLE-TARGET+FOCUS ON HER E: This is just plain out of character dude! Cassiopeia shouldn't be a mano-a-mano brawler that your rework made her into. She should be a manipulative she-devil who prefers to stay back while her servants (your 4 allies and minions) get their hands dirty. She should spread her Poison and inflict some serious harm in her own way, and only going in to get her hands dirty once she is confident her opponents are too weak to fight back! Hence why I keep recommending that your redirect her power back to her Q+W while making her E into an Execute against sufficiently weakened preys. This would fit her fantasy perfectly as a high-class predatory POISON MAGE (would you mind going into detail why this just won't work?)

ALL HER DAMAGE LOADED INTO E: I think you've seen me ramble on about this before, but since you never addressed why you're so fixated into what is probably the least fun ability in her kit, I assume you don't understand what I'm trying to get across. I'll TRY to put this in a way that you better understand. As I explained above, the "mano-a-mano" brawler style really plays against Cassiopeia's fantasy. How it was the blacksheep of her ability in her old kit (atleast the new "enhancement function" gives it a link finally). But asides from that, her E has other issues. Cassiopeia is not innately tanky. She is not particularly mobile. And her only range is her Q, her E puts her into range of all the things you do NOT want to let an immobile squishy champion to get in range of. Unless you are massively out-playing your opponent or if you have really competent allies peeling for you, that E of hers just isn't a very appealing ability to use at all.

Asides from that, have you ever tried to cast E on a poisoned target while an UN-POISONED TARGET IS STANDING NEARBY (another champion or minions)? Not. Fun. At. All.

Here is a major point I really want to forward to you.

DoT is not appreciated!

NO! That is objectively wrong! If people seriously do not appreciate her DoT, they would NOT be as passionate as they have been! People would NOT work so hard to dodge her Q+W's in her old rework! Swain would have a playerbase of a grand total of 0. It is this very thought-process that gave Draven that extremely disappointing feast or famine Passive. WHERE did you get such a notion?

To think more rationally...where did you get such a notion? The vast majority of champions in this game are not DoT, in other words, the vast majority of players are not accustomed to DoT.

THEREFORE: Where did you get such a crazy consensus? ///Did you ask LoL Players in general? Or did you ask Cassiopeia/other DoT prominent champions players?///

Fluppets11/7/2014, 1:13:32 PM14 votes

Math concerning her Twin Fang mana costs.

I have stated in (many) previous posts that Cassiopeia is being punished for doing good in team fights through E mana costs; being succesfull in spamming E for an extended time.

The mana refund on execute does nothing to eleviate this problem.

I have done some pro maths, here are some points I take away from it.

  • Noxious Blast:

  • Damage/Mana @ 0 AP Rank 1= 1.88 Rank 5= 3.92

  • Damage/Mana @ 75 AP: Rank 1= 2.72 Rank 5= 4.48

  • Damage/Mana @ 575 AP: Rank 1= 8.34 Rank 5 = 8.23

  • Damage/Mana @ 1075 AP: Rank 1 = 13.13 Rank 2 = 11.42

  • Damage/Mana goes down per rank around 550 AP

  • Comparison to Syndra Q

  • Damage/Mana @ 0 AP Rank 1= 1.75 Rank 5= 2.875

  • Damage/Mana @ (75 - 5%) = 71.25 AP Rank 1= 2.82 Rank 2= 3.41

  • Damage/Mana @ (575 - 10%) = 517.5 AP Rank 1= 9.51 Rank 2= 6.76

  • Damage/Mana @ (1075 - 30%) = 752.5 AP Rank 1= 13.04 Rank 2 = 8.52

  • Damage/Mana goes down per rank at precisely 150 AP

  • At early levels (no AP and Mana items) it is beneficial to max Q; you get more damage/mana.

  • Her Noxious blast (compared to Syndra) seems normal.

  • At higher AP, the AP bonus gets larger than the Base bonus, so it becomes relatively less efficient (which is normal).

  • Twin Fang:

  • Damage/Mana @ 0 AP Rank 1 = 1.84 Rank 5 = 1.72

  • Damage/Mana @ 75 AP: Rank 1= 2.83 Rank 5= 2.22

  • Damage/Mana @ 575 AP: Rank 1 = 9.5 Rank 2= 5.56

  • Damage/Mana @ 1075 AP: Rank 1= 16.17 Rank 5= 8.89

  • Damage/Mana goes down at all AP levels; you actually get punished for leveling E.

  • Rank 1 E is more efficient in damage/mana than all other ranks at all AP levels.

While fun, the mana refund mechanic does nothing for her mana issues. She should be rewarded for being able to maintain E spam. Due to the mana/damage costs, the damage is not reward enough.

She needs a Deadly cadence effect on her Twin Fang for extended fights.

well, there goes my break...

Stez00711/7/2014, 7:48:10 AM14 votes

Aspect of the Serpent

No longer stacks on poisoned unit kill or on Twin Fang casts on enemy champions.
Now, stacks once every 6 seconds (10 times per minute) and for every second that an enemy champion is poisoned.
    Stack breakpoints adjusted to 100 / 250 / 500. Overall, these are hit sooner than the old 75/200/400 based on the new mechanics, but are definitely still up for discussion.

Translation: "We don't want Cassiopeia to ever be played outside of Summoner's Rift, by anyone. Ever."

Seriously, this is an even worse idea. 10 per minute in a ~20 minute Dominion or TT game, what do you think will happen?

Get rid of this passive, it is not fun and completely invalidates her outside of SR.

But, if you don't actually care about other maps, here's another reason to get rid of that passive.

Thresholds are not fun. Getting power spikes at certain thresholds doesn't feel like gaining power over time, it feels like rushing to get to a certain point. It'd be a LOT better if she instead got some form of scaling from each stack, but it still would feel like she's intentionally weak for most of the game (which she pretty much is).

The rest of these changes do not actually rectify any of her problems. Going to repost yet again, as these concerns were clearly ignored. Also including another reply to the original post.

Cass was fun as a lane bully and being a strong laner was not only core to her identity but essential to her playstyle. Cass's new design is insanely counter-intuitive to the reality of her kit.

-Her Q and W push the lane, but she's too squishy and doesn't deal enough damage to take advantage of it. She can't leave the lane to gank and she can't stay pushed thanks to her squishiness and lack of escape/1v2 ability. -Meanwhile, E is so short ranged that if she's using it to farm, she's too close to the enemy and will be forced into a trade that she is designed to lose. She is designed to lose lane. -Since she no longer can spam Q/Ws thanks to not having her old passive, she can't farm effectively without using E to regain mana (and, if this is removed, she won't even be able to do that). So not only is she losing trades and pushing every time she tries to harass or trade with Q/W, she can't even out-push her opponent without going OOM or overextending.

She's basically worthless in lane by design now, and that is about as fun as playing Poppy in lane. Except with Cass, you don't scale into a 1v5 monster with a broken kit. Instead, if you manage to actually farm and get 400 stacks, you might live long enough to get an ult off before the enemy team murders you. You certainly won't get any actual DPS on them, and you have NO burst whatsoever so your life is totally meaningless unless you're left completely alone--which you won't be, since you need to be in E range to do any damage!

It's horrific design. Unfun and practically unplayable. Oh, and as mentioned, it makes her even more useless on Dominion where she cannot even get stacks!

Going to repeat for emphasis, being a lane bully is core to her design. She cannot, does not and will never function if she is not a bully. Her kit either needs to remain powerful in lane or needs to be entirely scrapped and redone, with not a single aspect leftover. Not her ulti, not poison damage over time and certainly not short-range single-target DPS on a super-squishy.

RadiantWings11/7/2014, 7:21:34 PM14 votes

This is going to get lost but...

The choppy movement isn't going to go away just because you increase the cooldown on Twin Fangs a bit. A better solution would be to program it the same way you did Nami's cast animation on Ebb and Flow, she stops to cast, and then continues her movement command without further input.

Karcist11/7/2014, 9:51:41 AM13 votes

I don't think that these changes will do much in the way of making cass a more appealing champion to use. People don't want her whole gameplay centered around her E, plain and simple. Her gameplay was already previously centered around her E, just not to the extent that it is now because her other abilities felt like they had purpose outside of just setting up for her E. These changes give some power back to her Q, but she still has to use her E first which doesn't really solve much.

Kowe The Ewok11/8/2014, 4:22:29 AM13 votes

EDIT: The added statement 3 might be the most important aspect here

2 opinions on your following statement stashu: " we didn't wantOnly-Q-All-Day-And-Win Cassiopeia lane bully back"

1.) This statement does feel false by default considering that Cassiopeia actually has been not been a secure lane winner for YEARS. Yes, in the right he hands she wasn't a bad pick. But the above statement simply is an exaggeration. If it was anywhere near true she would have seen MUCH more play in competitive and soloQ play then she did. Fact is: she can and could be easily outpicked / played with movementspeed runes and or early boots. (Just like you grab MR @6 when you fight LeBlanc or take merks when you fight Fiddle...) Her Q was good but you're retrospectively over-glorifying this ability - and especially the easiness to constantly land it.

2.) If your intention was to not further promote spamming Q, nerfing the hell out of her W was definitely NOT the way to go. The base damage nerf for this ability that came with the rework was just insane. All abilities should seem useful. It can't be the sole purpose of an ability to set up another one (E...)

EDIT:

And a 3rd statement:

3.) The new "bonus" from E is neither a bonus, nor a "synergy" if it is a requirement for the ability to deal noticeable damage. That just means you're using 2 skill slots to have 1 decent ability. We're reaching a point where base damage is so low that you should rather auto attack the enemy midlaner instead of using spells on him...

EDIT 2: 3.2) ...Or you have to land 2 spells in order to deal the damage your opponent does with one. Note that in her post rework state the 850 range on Q is essentially worthless since the 700 range on E is the binding factor to actually deal noticeable damage.

Thryale11/7/2014, 5:18:52 PM12 votes

Stashu, I think one of the core issues with this rework is cass's desired identity and kit are in conflict with each other.

You want her identity to be a niche apc. But her kit screams lane bully. Both her old and new passive are designed for a lane bully, not a late game hyper-carry.

Almost all passives that require the champ to interact with their opponent rely on that champ having a strong laning phase, and usually enhance that champ's laning phase. But you are deliberately crippling her laning phase so that she just barely limps by, in hopes that her mid game will fair better.

The problem with that, is that atm, the mid game is heavily reliant on your early game performance. It is true that the late game isn't quite as dependent on early/mid game performance, but most games don't make it to that point. This is mostly due to the plethora of early/mid game dominant champs with strong harass/gap closers that can quickly snowball a lead out of control. Not to mention champs that stall out the game have been under constant fire by riot over the years due to them slowing the game down and reducing action.

Next up is cass's Q. This spell screams lane bully. It's safe harass, (used to) do respectable dmg. And is supposed to be cass's bread and butter spell. The one she's supposed to max first. But the constant slew of nerfs it's received due to you trying to force cass into a late game hyper carry niche has completely ruined this aspect of this spell. That's like nerfing Xerath's Q in exchange for making his W do 50% more dmg if you land it in the sweet spot. Does xerath's burst dmg go up? sure. But his primary playstyle(a poke champ) is severely nerfed to compensate.

On to her W. This is cass's premier zoning tool. The only champ that has a zoning tool as powerful as this is ziggs' minefield. The problem, is this is no longer effective at zoning due to the fact that it does no dmg. The slow is too low at rank one to dissuade champs from wading thru it either, and don't forget, most champs have a gap closer that let's them jump thru/over it with ease. Also, the cd and mana cost of this spell are extremely high for how ineffective it is. I think the primary issue with miasma atm is that all of it's power is backloaded into it's higher ranks, but this spell is always the last one maxed when playing cass. This means that it needs to be a one point wonder, and currently, it just doesn't do the job.

Now for cass's E. You really want to put all of cass's eggs in this one spell, don't you? There is sooooo much power loaded into this spell it just really off-sets her entire kit. I feel that trying to emphasis a machinegun like play style is not the way to go with this. I understand you want players to go for more of a q>ee>q play style, but that will never be the case when E has so much power loaded into it. If you want cass to use the q>ee>q play style, then first and foremost, cass's q needs to feel satisfying to use! But atm, it can't because E has so much power loaded into it. I really like the suggestions ppl have been saying about an execute mechanic instead. Also, if you do decide to shave off some power from her E (that cd reset you mentioned) then instead of giving it back to her e in other places, give that power to her Q or W. This will make those spells feel more worth their salt than they do at present.

Over all however, cass's kit is built for lane bullying. You've got the "I must fight my lane opponent constantly" passive. One of the best harrassing tools a lane bully could ever wish for in her Q. A zone control spell that is(used to) only be out classed by ziggs in her W, and a way to deal with all in champs like zed/akali with her E acting as a side arm for when they get past her primary defenses. But the promblem here is that you are tuning her to be an apc with a bonkers late game. Which means that cass is weak when she should be strongest(the early game) and strong when she really doesn't need to be(short range + squishy target = dead cass) ((also, get rid of this character limit!!))

Insetick11/7/2014, 9:55:18 AM11 votes

People were complaining that they could no longer poke or zone with Q and W because they do so little damage. Your goal was to make poisons feel more impactful, but this change makes the damage buff contingent on landing an E anyway. So there's functionally no change: the only time poison will be doing more damage is when you're already using E, which is (and will still be) the vast majority of her DPS. Cass is still either at >700 range and doing pitiful damage, or <700 range and doing mad DPS to a single target. I won't feel the difference of having a 50% stronger Q if I'm already machine-gunning with E. In fact, I would actually feel that E is doing more damage than before, which makes Q and W feel relatively weaker.

Cass's design is still forcing her to max E first. If Q only does 70 damage at level one, a 50% increase is totally insignificant. I would only feel good about poking with Q in lane if it was rewarding to land, which means it needs to grant some immediate benefit (like damage?). All too often, opponents are more than happy to stand in my poison to get CS. Against what other champ can you do this?

Why remove the component of E where you get stacks for using E on poisoned champs? Removing that encourages Cass to play like a poke mage. There are enough of those already. Wasn't the point of the rework to define Cass as a single-target machine-gun mage? If so, why wouldn't you reward players for playing as such? If your goal is to get players to pick more fights in lane instead of passively farming, shouldn't you reward them for using E on champs? With these tentative changes, I would rarely ever use E on champs. I would rather use E on minions, since this would give me more cs and more mana to harass with Q. Not gaining stacks on E only further discourages me from playing aggressively on Cass.

The stack checkpoints are unrewarding as well. Imo, the 75 stack checkpoint feels great. I actually try very hard to play aggressively and hit that first checkpoint. However, I personally don't find the 200stack or 400stack checkpoints as impactful. 25%cdr is feels good, but it doesn't make Cass immediately stronger. The %AP bonuses are nice, but they don't feel impactful to me because I won't have enough AP when I hit those checkpoints to feel any difference. Reaching these checkpoints only makes the AP items I buy afterward feel more rewarding. In most games, I hit 400 stacks at 30-35minutes and think, "welp, that's over with. Now to farm up two more AP items that will actually make this %AP bonus useful." A change in the timing of the checkpoints might make it less of a chore: 40%AP at 550 stacks would have much better timing in one of my average games, since I would have a larger chunk of AP at that point of the game.

In summary, there are multiple issues going on that make stacking unrewarding, and I don't think the planned changes will do much to change this. In fact, some of these proposed changes might make stacking feel even more like a chore, by discouraging players from interacting from their enemies in any way other than landing pathetically weak poisons.

SpecterVonBaren11/7/2014, 4:28:27 AM11 votes

Well regardless of my feelings on Cass as she is now, I do appreciate that you're still talking and it's nice to see that you took the advice of pining this new thread for easy vision. Hopefully this is a sign that you'll follow Scruffy's example and eventually make something that satisfies, maybe not everyone, but more people.... although in that case, Skarner was immediately kneejerk nerfed after one game of competitive play.

RiotRiot Stashu11/11/2014, 12:30:09 AM9 votes

Holy moly, 235 new posts since I last checked. Got some reading to do.