Boards›Gameplay

Analysis: Support mages, why, how, their issues and how to make them healthier.

Verdade·3/16/2017, 11:31:09 AM·5 votes·2,274 views

Hi, i'd like to talk about SUPPORT MAGES, why do they work, how do they work and how to improve their gameplay and make it better for them, their allies and enemies.

Which champions are mage supports? Most popular/most mages used as supports: Brand Zyra Malzahar Velkoz Mages used as supports in past/less popular mage supports: Annie Veigar Lux Fiddlesticks

Notice this:

  • All 8 of them are** IMMOBILE**
  • They all have really good ZONE CONTROL and/or threat zones
  • 7 of them have at least 1 HARD CC ability, the last one, Lux, has ROOT
  • 6 of them are heavily SKILLSHOT based champions
  • Their abilities are weak on their own, but strong when combined (COMBOs)

Why are mages migrating to support role?

This is speculation, and im open to discussion, but this is what i think: There's way too much MOBILITY and CDR in** MID LANE** and JUNGLE. Because these champions lack mobility, they can't really escape from all these dashes and blinks, especially when such abilities come from both enemy mid and jungle. This means they have harder time to survive ganks/deny aggression.

Very high mobility (coming from both MS and dashes) makes their skillshot/combo based kits very UNRELIABLE. Sure they can work, but it's really hard to hit Zed/Yasuo/LV with telegraphed abilities. While CDR is much more acessible to these mages, they are still gated by mana so they can't just mindlessly spam abilities and hope something sticks.

If there's place where this mobility creep isn't as prevalent its BOT LANE. ADCs have average mobility and traditional supports have next to none. This makes their abilities easier to land and they are much less likely to be jumped at.

How come mages (designed to be high-income champions) work in support role (low-income)?

They don't. If you took any mage and gave him support's income, he would be just bad. But, there comes the ADC. ADC is what makes support mages viable. Let me explain.

ADCs have weak-ish early and mid game, they offer steady DPS at average range. Mages have okay-ish early, strong mid and late, damage downtimes and strong zone control.

If solo lane mage messes up his combo, he's very vulnerable as he can't retaliate against attacks. If he lands his combo, he won the trade and probably got the kill. Presence of ADC allows him to fall back and wait on his CDs, so he can try again, plus the mage doesn't have to worry about getting CS/wave control. Presence of ADC also allows mage to focus FULLY ON DAMAGE. So while he has decreased income, he can still get similar levels of damage because he doesn't have to spend gold on defensive items. There's a reason support mages almost never build Zhonya's or Abyssal until 5th-6th item. ADC also offers limited CC, which allows mage to land his abilities even more reliably. This is especially true for Ashe, Jhin and Varus.

What does ADC gain? Two important things ADCs lack: Zone control and threat. For example, when you are playing Ashe and you're supported by Janna, there isn't much threat for Draven so he can just throw his Qs at you anytime he wants. Janna can't really do much, just shield you and that's it. But when you are playing Ashe and you're supported by Brand, this Draven will think twice before doing such trades as aggression like this will most likely end up in pillar below his feet and thus unfavourable trade.

Sure, ADCs aren't as strong with mage support as they are with traditional peel/protect support, but sum of ADC+MAGE impact is greater than that of ADC+Support's.

What are issues of these MAGE SUPPORTS?

-Frontloaded damage. This is large issue on Brand and Zyra in particular. In Brand's case, it's maxing W and doing way too much up-front damage with it. In Zyra's case, it's Q on passive which also instantly procs thunderlords and results in low-risk/high-reward situations. These champions shouldn't be able to do much damage up front, but to build their damage into obscene levels as the encounter prolongs.

-Late-game identity/role. Not much of an issue, but look at it this way: in late-game everyone wants to kill enemy team. There's very little difference between actual mid champion and mage support

How to improve these support mages and make them more fair?

Move their up-front damage into delayed/conditional damage. For example:

Brand -Lower QWE damage by ~50% (both bases and scaling) -Passive burn always does damage to minions/monsters as if it had 3 stacks -Passive burn AP ratio increased from 0.015 to 0.03 -Applying passive to targets that are about to explode (2 sec window after third stack) increases explosion damage by 50%, not prolonging the countdown.

This makes him much more manageable in lane, however if he manages to get his combo off on multiple targets (play as he is designed to) he gets greatly rewarded by fireworks with insane damage. As bulk of his damage comes from explosion, he will always try to land as many abilities as possible instead of using his abilities in fire-and-forget fashion.

12 Comments

Aptest3/16/2017, 11:46:39 AM6 votes

good read so far.

I am missing the following discussion: are mage supports a problem that needs to be solved, and why? From an overall power perspective, they do not outdo Janna/Soraka/Lulu/Nami/Sona who are their direct competitors. So why the frustration?

front loaded damage. We know that this is a property of a mage landing skills because you don't have to wait around 10 seconds to get your damage off like the ADC has to. But is this overall a problem? You assume it is but this assumption is not supported? We know mage supports are not "oppressive" and they do not "crowd out" other champion types. Where is problem?

Suggestions about Brand. I would like to see justification to argument that brand is a problem champion when used botlane? Not comfortable accepting this assumption and moving to suggested changes without first justifying this.

MaeDoSan3/16/2017, 11:44:34 AM3 votes

Gated by mana lul item 3165

Nymzo3/16/2017, 5:03:50 PM3 votes

{quoted}

Why are mages migrating to support role?

This is speculation, and im open to discussion, but this is what i think: There's way too much MOBILITY and CDR in** MID LANE** and JUNGLE. Because these champions lack mobility, they can't really escape from all these dashes and blinks, especially when such abilities come from both enemy mid and jungle. This means they have harder time to survive ganks/deny aggression.

You are right and wrong at the same time, yes they are immobile which is a weakness on its own. However, the thing is that was really what brought them out of mid lane, all-in supports like Thresh or Blitz would have no problem against them because of their immobility. This is obviously not the case.

Very high mobility (coming from both MS and dashes) makes their skillshot/combo based kits very UNRELIABLE. Sure they can work, but it's really hard to hit Zed/Yasuo/LV with telegraphed abilities. While CDR is much more acessible to these mages, they are still gated by mana so they can't just mindlessly spam abilities and hope something sticks.

That's just counterpick in my opinion, the ap ''supports'' can still fight very well versus other mages.

If there's place where this mobility creep isn't as prevalent its BOT LANE. ADCs have average mobility and traditional supports have next to none. This makes their abilities easier to land and they are much less likely to be jumped at.

Lucian would like to have a word with you, and Blitzcrank too. But yea you are right on this part.

How come mages (designed to be high-income champions) work in support role (low-income)?

They don't. If you took any mage and gave him support's income, he would be just bad. But, there comes the ADC. ADC is what makes support mages viable. Let me explain.

ADCs have weak-ish early and mid game, they offer steady DPS at average range. Mages have okay-ish early, strong mid and late, damage downtimes and strong zone control.

If solo lane mage messes up his combo, he's very vulnerable as he can't retaliate against attacks. If he lands his combo, he won the trade and probably got the kill. Presence of ADC allows him to fall back and wait on his CDs, so he can try again, plus the mage doesn't have to worry about getting CS/wave control. Presence of ADC also allows mage to focus FULLY ON DAMAGE. So while he has decreased income, he can still get similar levels of damage because he doesn't have to spend gold on defensive items. There's a reason support mages almost never build Zhonya's or Abyssal until 5th-6th item. ADC also offers limited CC, which allows mage to land his abilities even more reliably. This is especially true for Ashe, Jhin and Varus.

What does ADC gain? Two important things ADCs lack: Zone control and threat. For example, when you are playing Ashe and you're supported by Janna, there isn't much threat for Draven so he can just throw his Qs at you anytime he wants. Janna can't really do much, just shield you and that's it. But when you are playing Ashe and you're supported by Brand, this Draven will think twice before doing such trades as aggression like this will most likely end up in pillar below his feet and thus unfavourable trade.

Sure, ADCs aren't as strong with mage support as they are with traditional peel/protect support, but sum of ADC+MAGE impact is greater than that of ADC+Support's.

You are wrong, very wrong. The reasons why they work as support is because:

  1. The mage update buffed their base dmg while also nerfing their ap ratios, which mean they are less item dependent like before. It also means that their early game is better than before. (Velkoz didn't change that much)

  2. The mage update also gave them a bunch of new tools such Zyra's new passif, Brand's 3 combo spells explosions, and Malz's passif and voidlings which make them A LOT stronger.

  3. The ''nerf'' to Rylai, which made it cheaper, bacame a good item and cheap ap item to get, especially when on a budget.

  4. All you need to be viable as a support is to have at least one source of cc, unfortunately.

What are issues of these MAGE SUPPORTS?

-Frontloaded damage. This is large issue on Brand and Zyra in particular. In Brand's case, it's maxing W and doing way too much up-front damage with it. In Zyra's case, it's Q on passive which also instantly procs thunderlords and results in low-risk/high-reward situations. These champions shouldn't be able to do much damage up front, but to build their damage into obscene levels as the encounter prolongs.

-Late-game identity/role. Not much of an issue, but look at it this way: in late-game everyone wants to kill enemy team. There's very little difference between actual mid champion and mage support

I'll quote myself here:

Look at what Riot wrote about the support role in the new player guide:

Helpful champions that focus on augmenting teammates (through heals, shields, etc) and disabling their opponents. They usually have low damage but offset that with their high utility and unparalleled battlefield control.

Notice that they specify low dmg but better utility in their guide. There's some exceptions like Sona who is a mix between a burst mage and an Enchanter (but she needs a rework anyway). What that means if that Rio designed and will design other supports with this guide in mind.

The ''Fantastic Four'' however, were not designed with this mindset because they were designed for midlane mages in the update. And because the said update made them less dependant on ap items, their previous early game weakness was removed while also keeping their mid game powerspike and late game threat. And btw, the early game at bot lane is very, very important because this is when it's decide who is going to be fed or who is going to be put into the ground. I didn't even mention the ''nerf'' to Rylai that decreased his cost, making a very cost efficient item (and when you live with a budget, the low cost make the decision for you).

What does it means? That means if you play against an ap ''support'' mage, you are starting with a disavantage when the game did not even begin. If you play a normal support, unless the jungler camps your lane or they somehow fuck up, you will lose every single 2 vs 2 because there's 2 person that does dmg now.

How to improve these support mages and make them more fair?

Move their up-front damage into delayed/conditional damage. For example:

Brand -Lower QWE damage by ~50% (both bases and scaling) -Passive burn always does damage to minions/monsters as if it had 3 stacks -Passive burn AP ratio increased from 0.015 to 0.03 -Applying passive to targets that are about to explode (2 sec window after third stack) increases explosion damage by 50%, not prolonging the countdown.

This makes him much more manageable in lane, however if he manages to get his combo off on multiple targets (play as he is designed to) he gets greatly rewarded by fireworks with insane damage. As bulk of his damage comes from explosion, he will always try to land as many abilities as possible instead of using his abilities in fire-and-forget fashion.

No, the wise thing to do is to bring them back to mid lane by crippling their role as a support without nerfing them.

We can do that reverting the changes that the mage update did (not the kits changes but the dmg on the spells and the ratios). We can also increase the price of Rylai while giving it a hp buff or by changing Spellthief.

LordGeovanni3/17/2017, 12:50:46 AM2 votes

I'll accept the excuse skill shit based champion when spells have a minimum non effective range and they dont have balls to the walls hit boxes.

Derfel3/16/2017, 10:58:25 PM1 votes

They're supports now because Riot made them that way, not because of anything meta.

I don't understand why it blows peoples minds but Brand use to be a better mid than support till they moved all of his damage to a new passive that required him to land 3 abilities, which just greatly increased the skill required to use him mid (and in most cases made a lot of his hard match ups nearly impossible). So his choices are either to go mid and get outplayed, or go bot where he can spam abilities to hopefully proc his passive. It should be understood that redemption, locket and flavor of the day support that gives shields (now it's karma and lulu) have all killed Brand as a strong pick.

Malz was never a support till riot reworked him twice for no reason and now he's just a shell that presses R bot lane, a pathetic circumstance that Riot specifically said was a reason for his rework in the first place. Congratulation on failing this hard. The nerfs they implemented to his second rework funnily enough have only impacted his ability to kill people mid lane so now he's just a dedicated support with less than 1% playing him mid. Wow. I wish I could fuck up this hard and still have a job.

Zyra is probably the only true mage support where her free poke just makes her a stronger support than mid laner when she can focus entirely on just poking. The rework made her unbearable by LOWERING her damage but making it impossible to avoid (great gameplay mechanics Riot). She has since been nerfed to make her less reliable mid.

Velkoz support is only slightly stronger than Lux support, which most people consider to be a troll pick. He doesn't have guaranteed harass, his mana costs are ridiculous, his W is nearly useless as a support, and most importantly he requires good positioning to make the best use of his E and R, a pretty big weakness when as a support you usually lack gold and beef so being able to blow all your stuff and die actually an important characteristic which Velkoz lacks.

Veigar was a niche mid laner and an even more niche support when his stun required skill on your part and not incompetence from your opponents. He use to have guaranteed poke with a targeted Q. Riot took away almost all his consistency from an immobile mage with one of the worst laning phases in the game, what did they really expect would happen? That he would shine mid lane because they removed DFG, gave Ahri 200 ms and turned all of Veigars abilities into skillshots? Where's the punchline? It's pretty sad but probably Veigars best build as support is to just rush redemption and locket. Great itemization changes.

Lux is just ass. She's really not that bad as a support IF the enemy team doesn't have a tank. Otherwise she's as ass supporting as she is mid.

Fiddle is ass. Annie is one of the strongest mid laners right now because Riot decided to give her 40% damage reduction (?????Riot hello?????)

Your Brand suggestions are just terrible. There's no other way to put it, none of that would make Brand a mid laner again.