A Treatise on Veigar
Hi All! Today I'm going to talk to you about Veigar. Now, as a heads up, this post is going to be rather long, as I'll be not only comparing Veigar to other similar mages in his position (namely Syndra) but I will also be doing a thematic overview and making recommendations for changes to his kit since the removal of DFG, and responding to Meddler's comments on what Riot is looking at for potential changes to his kit. I can understand many of you will not care to read this, so I only ask that you don't downvote it to oblivion so that a rioter might have a chance to take a look.
A Treatise on Veigar
First and foremost, given that another 120 AP item is in the works, if I were in the position to balance Veigar, I would perhaps wait for the release of this new item. Chances are it will have an additional effect as well as having 120 AP, and with AP being so core to Veigar's build chances are anything more than slight adjustments might result in him needing to be either nerfed/buffed after the release of this item.
Veigar; the Tiny Master of Evil! Those of us who play him frequently are deeply saddened by what was perhaps the most core item to his build, the DFG. Now, with 5.2 released and no Veigar alterations just yet, I feel this is the time to speak up to try to guide modifications in such a way that Veigar doesn't suffer further (since he already became twisted and demented from his years in prison). So, in this post I shall attempt to cover Veigar's champion concept both functionally and thematically, as well as make suggestions for balance changes. Feel free to comment with (constructive) criticisms and add your own ideas!
Veigar's Champion Concept:
Thematically:
Veigar is in a unique position as one of the few truly evil characters in League of Legends. This is even more interesting since he is a Yordle, and they are commonly known as being a lively group full of spirit that generally fights for the forces of good. Though he wasn't always like this, Veigar's lore explains that his time spent alone in a Noxian prison cell drove him mad. After escaping the Noxian prison he sought the dark arts and became a powerful dark wizard. He now seeks to end conflict by bringing all Valoran city-states to their knees, regardless of affiliation. Most of his kit was built to compliment his theme of a powerful dark wizard. His Q is low CD, making it good for harass, and has a passive which allows for one to accumulate AP infinitely throughout the game; his opponents should feel this sense of impending doom as Veigar becomes stronger and stronger as the game progresses. His W is an AoE nuke (though small in area), and while his E is a tricky to hit skill, it is the longest AoE stun in the game. Currently, his Ult functions the same way his Q does, however it is only able to target champions (and has some scaling off the enemy's AP). With these four abilities, he is able to scale insanely well into late game, lock up carries, delete them, and walk away laughing maniacally. If that isn't evil I don't know what is (except maybe Teemo). His passive, equilibrium, is the one part of his kit which doesn't quite fit. Giving 1% increased mana regen for each missing 1% mana, this passive scales with a stat (Mana Regen) which Veigar virtually never purchases, preferring to invest in raw AP, Magic Pen, or even CDR before mana regen. Combined with the fact that Chalice of Harmony offers an even better passive (restores 2% of missing mana every 5 sec) for 880 gold, it often feels like Veigar's actual passive is the passive which is on his Q.
Functionally:
As a champion, many people tend to think of Veigar as an anti-mage. While the excellent scaling of his ult, which even scales of off an enemy's own ability power leads many into thinking this, it is only half of the truth. A far more accurate description of Veigar function in game is that of an Anti-Carry, or Anti-Squishy if you will. It is certainly easier to delete an enemy who has massive amounts of AP, but even without the DFG Veigar should have little trouble taking on any carry who doesn't itemize some form of defense. This was especially true when the DFG granted him both AP and increased damage; with DFG it was possible to 100-0 a squishy enemy champion even if they built MR or no AP. This ability to delete squishy targets was kept in check by Veigar's low to middle range, lack of strong wave clear, reliance on mana/cooldowns for his burst, and low mobility. This left Veigar susceptible to champions who outranged him, champions that can wave clear easily and push him on, and to champions that can deal a lot of sustained damage (think Xerath and Cassiopeia for a few examples). While weak early, his strong AP scaling on his abilities, combined with his ability to stack AP infinitely by farming with Q, meant that Veigar can always be a damage threat late game. However, being squishy himself, Veigar is heavily reliant on his cooldowns to function in duels and teamfights, especially his Ult and Stun cooldowns.
Re-Balancing Veigar in a post-DFG Valoran
As far as things which I would 100% want to see in a re-balancing would be lower mana cost on Ultimate (so it isn't 225 at rank 3) and get rid of his equilibrium passive. For Veigar's kit and theme, %increased mana regen based on missing mana A) doesn't make sense, and B) proves to be basically insignificant. When you have enough mana to do a full combo or harass in lane with spells, the mana regen amounts to basically nothing. When you're nearly oom, you'll end up getting enough to have 1 spell every 30 seconds maybe (calculating only the mana gained from his passive, not his base). In contrast, Xerath/Lissandra both get free spells far more frequently. I'd much rather see his Q passive to gain AP reworked as his main passive, or a mana regen passive which is actually useful. Here's a breakdown of Veigar's Passive and how it compares to the Chalice of Harmony's uniquie passive, Mana Font:
Veigar's passive, 'Equilibrium', is basically a slightly weaker version of the Chalice of Harmony, and related items. While Equilibrium increases mana regen by 1% per each missing 1% of his mana, the chalice of harmony line restores 2% of the missing mana. While not identical, the differences are negligable, and actually slightly favor the Chalice passive as far as effectiveness, especially as mana pools increase (maths at the end of the post). However, I argue that Veigar really doesn't make good use of his passive. Champions like Xerath and Lissandra can get a free spell every 12-18 seconds, give or take, and in Xerath's case if he auto attacks a champion to proc his passive he might even get 2 free spells. However, I don't think that Veigar should be made to be more similar to these champions. Xerath and Lissandra are about poking the enemy down and having excellent siege control. Veigar is closer to an assassin; one minute your squishes are there, the next they are not. He only has one AoE skill, and given the time delay it is very easily avoided unless the enemy is CC'd. I think it would be much more beneficial to give him a passive which augments this, in the way that Syndra's does (or even the passive on his Q). In fact, it would be better to remove Equilibrium's mana regen and replace it with a slightly stronger version of the passive on his Q. This way Veigar wouldn't feel bad about building the Chalice and its upgrade items in the situations where it would otherwise be useful. It would also better tie him together thematically; a new passive for a tiny master who is truly evil, who roams and tries to get picks and kills rather than one who is slightly confused and trying to lane a tad longer against someone who is far better at laning than he is.
Here are the maths I promised: Part I: Veigar's passive compared to other champions with mana regain passives/free spells Even at lvl 18, where Veigar's base mana regen is essentially 4 per second (20 per 5), if he were to hang out at 1/2 mana and his passive increase his regen by 50%, he will only be getting an additional 2 mana each second. That's 40 seconds for the time it takes to get enough mana for a Q, a full minute for his E, and nearly 2 minutes for his ult. -At lvl 18 Lissandra still gets a free spell every 18 seconds (regardless of mana cost) and can reduce the CD on this by impairing movement with her spells. -At lvl 18, Xerath gets 195 mana every 12 seconds, as long as he auto attacks something. This is enough for 2 casts of his E, 5 mana away from 2 casts of his ult, 25 mana away from 2 casts of his W, and this is all doubled if he should happen to auto attack an enemy champion.
Part II: Equilibrium vs Mana Font - Veigar's passive vs Chalice's unique passive Chalice effectiveness > Equilibrium (just slightly) lvl 1 Veigar: Base mana 350 (rounded) Base mana regen 6.0 per 5 (1.2/sec) Equilibrium increased regen at - 1/2 mana: 3.0 (.6/sec) 0 mana: 6.0 (1.2/sec) Chalice regen at - 1/2 mana: 3.5 mana (.7) 0 mana: 7 mana (1.4) lvl 18 Veigar: Base mana 1277 (rounded 1300) Base mana regen 19.6 (rounded 20 per 5) or 4/sec Equilibrium regen at - 1/2 mana: 2/sec 0 mana: 4/sec Chalice regen at - 1/2 mana: 2.6/sec 0 mana: 5.2/sec Now, these calculations show the additional mana regen given by each passive. While the regen granted by 'Mana Font' (the passive of Chalice) is marginally better than the 'Equilibrium' passive, it is still something which can be purchased by any champion for around 900 gold, with an additional 25 MR and more base mana regen as well. Given that this mana regen passive Veigar has doesn't help him enough to be truly useful (unlike Xerath's, Lissandras, or an actual Chalice/Athene's which has additional combat stats) and it doesn't fit his theme of a champion who tries to burst you down and walk away maniacally laughing, I think it would be far more beneficial to replace it with something which makes more sense for the champion.
When considering how to rebalance Veigar without DFG as an option I wanted to keep his core strengths and weaknesses as identified above, while staying true to his theme of an evil anti-squishy. This is what I came up with (for comparison, live veigar can be found here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Veigar)
Passive: Equilibrium removed. New Passive - Torment: Killing minions and monsters permanently stacks .5 AP. This bonus is doubled against large minions and monsters. Champion kills and assists permanently stack 10 and 5 AP, respectively. While this may seem like a lot of AP which can be gained, it is actually less than live if you were to merely stick to farming with Q's. A total of 6 AP (8 for cannon waves) can be secured with live veigar and proper CD's etc... but this would require perfect CS to get half of that (3, or 4 for cannon). This is to discourage an AFK farm-to-win style where massive AP can be gained from simply last hitting with Q. In return, AP value for champion kills is doubled and assists are now included in the stacking minigame because there are many players who choose to play Veigar in the support role and they should be rewarded for assisting with the kills. Q: Baleful Strike - Passive Removed Range: 650 Cost changed to 40/50/60/70/80 from 60/65/70/75/80 mana Cooldown: 4 Seconds Active: Magic Damage changed to 80/110/140/170/200 + 75% AP from 80/125/170/215/260 + 60% AP Q is Veigar's main form of farming and trading in lane, yet when compared to other mages this ability had a fairly long CD early for very high mana costs. Given that its old function was also what allowed for AP scaling, that is understandable. However, now that farming with Q won't give you AP more than farming any other way will, I have reduced its early game mana costs (they will scale up to the same as live at rank 5) and cooldown and adjusted base damage down and AP scaling up to compensate. For comparison, Syndra's Q and Annie's Q at rank 5 have the same CD and Mana cost as Veigar's Q. Annie's Q has 220 Base damage and 80% AP Scaling, Syndra (against champions) has 264.5 base with 69% AP Scaling. W: Dark Matter - Range: 900 Radius: 125 units Delay: 1.25 sec Cooldown: 10 Cost: 60/70/80/90/100 Magic Damage: 100/150/200/250/300 + 100% AP. This changed very little from live; for reducing the base damage by 20 at all ranks I have reduced the mana cost by 10 at all ranks and slightly increased the AoE radius from 112.5 to 125. This overall is increasing the area by 10%, or 78.5 total Units. I wanted to keep the same feel of a powerful AoE nuke, but opted not to decrease the cooldown or delay as that would require power to be adjusted in other areas. E: Event Horizon - Same as live There's not much I can do to this ability that won't make it either useless or completely OP. As a Veigar player, I'd love it if the center of the cage had additional CC effects (like Soraka's Silence or some form of Slow) but then the stun duration would almost certainly need to be reduced, which could make hitting the combo impossible depending on how short it became. The ult is where I got most creative and as a result I have a few iterations of it: R: Primordial Burst - Cost 100 mana at all ranks (down from 125/175/225) NOW A SKILL SHOT Cooldown: 130/110/90 Magic Damage: 250/375/500 + 120% AP New function: Marks the target with a singularity for 5 seconds. The when active singularity stores 30%/40%/50% of the magic damage dealt by Veigar. After 5 seconds or upon second activation the singularity will explode, dealing the stored damage to all units in a 400-unit radius from the afflicted champion and slowing enemies for 30%/40%/50%. Before you shout MORE BROKEN THAN RIVEN'S SWORD, unlike Zed's deathmark, this would not deal bonus damage in addition to the damage dealt. Rather, a target marked by Veigar's ult would actually take reduced damage from him during that time they are marked, only to have it explode up to 5 seconds later (or upon re-activation) in an AoE, which can damage the entire enemy team. This gives Veigar a lot of strategic diversity on how his ult will be used; Veigar can use it to catch high priority targets, like say a 18-2 vayne, and try to 1-shot her. Or, it can also be saved for teamfights, where you mark someone who will now deal massive damage to their allies if they try to help (Don't click the lanturn, I'll die!). Marking someone will essentially force their team to separate from them or risk taking significant damage. While you still retain the power to nuke squishies, it wouldn't be quite as strong as before. So if your ult slows, do you Stun(E)+W+Ult+Q, or do you try to just Ult+Q and then catch up to them with the slow to land the stun and E+W+Q for maximum damage? Will you get caught out trying to maximize your damage potential this way?
Alternative Ult Ideas (these will not be as detailed as above): 2) Cost 100 at all ranks (Seriously that needs to happen) Same CD/Base Damage as live, 150% AP Scaling, No scaling off of enemy AP, ult is a line skill shot.
- Cost 100 at all ranks. CD same as live. Base Damage: 350/450/550, 100% AP Scaling, Ult is a slow skill shot with AoE Burst (Think Corki's Phosphorus Bomb, but not quite as big an area, yet larger than W, maybe 200 unit Radius)
Addressing Meddler's comments/concerns (can be found on the post here: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/red-post-collection-meddler-on.html#more)
Here are the quotes of Meddler's to which I will be responding: "Odds are very high Veigar won't just be straight buffed. His kit's got some serious counterplay issues (undodgeable instant stun when used right, two point and click nukes) that we need to address. Bundled with counterplay improvements though should be some better tools for Veigar himself (e.g. less binary tools, so he's got better options in tough lanes, lower mana costs, lower CDs, bit more range on some stuff etc - note these aren't set in stone changes though, just possibilities). "As above Veigar's got some counterplay problems. We want to make him healthier to play against, so it's ok if he's strong, rather than buffing him only to feel we immediately have to nerf him because of how he can be to play against." "Q as skillshot's one of the things we're trying, not sure if it's currently on the kit in testing or not. Giving E a brief delay to play up the 'where do I stand inside the cage?' aspect, and then potentially increasing its range or lowering its CD's also being investigated."
I agree that Veigar should not have two “point-and-click” nukes on his kit. However, personally I feel his E needs to be instantaneous for how it works. It is not a "point-and-click" stun like Taric's (in that it doesn't follow the target and stun no matter what). It isn't a skill which also deals damage when cast like a Lux or Morgana binding, or even Caitlyn/Jinx traps. While it has a different geometry than a projectile traveling down a line, it is essentially a skill-shot; it has to be very precise to instantly stun a single target, let alone a group. Being able to instantly stun your opponent(s) with E, vs just trapping them in the box (where they can continue to do damage and trade with you) is what separates the good Veigar players from the great Veigar players. Veigar is also currently very reliant on his stun to be able to lane safely. Veigar's W is already on a 1.25 second delay; putting his stun on a delay as well will make it nearly impossible to use this skill to damage the enemy. They'll see the particle for the W and know you are trying to stun them there and just walk away. Sure, some champions may need to blow flash, but anyone with a dash/blink will never be caught again by the stun. Having the stun be instantaneous also means that for an enemy mid/jungle to set up a successful gank they're going to need to bait out that stun, because he's very squishy and immobile so it's rather easy to kill him if anyone can get in to lock him down. His E also has solid counter-play on live. While it might not be ideal for you as a laner to rush a tenacity item, things like Merc Treads really reduce that stun duration. Having a banshee's veil forces Veigar to pop it with another spell if he wants to stun, thus losing significant damage one way or the other, and getting a QSS means you can just walk away. While in the past not every champ could purchase mercs/banshees/qss to mitigate the duration, I must now point out that buying tenacity at least, is an option for everyone past level 9 with the new elixirs. Keep E instantaneous, but with that keep it as a high cooldown and high mana cost so Veigar can be punished for using it willy-nilly, and so that if the enemy can bait it out they will actually have a significant advantage for the window when it is down.
On another note, unless you can turn Q into an AoE skill shot (think Syndra Q), you'd be basically removing most of the power in Veigar's kit. His Q is his one reliable damage source; W has such a delay it usually requires you to land the stun to have it hit, and even then if a champion has a dash ability like LeBlanc or Zed, they can usually use their dash to escape the damage range of Dark Matter before it connects when the stun is at lower ranks. His E is either a stun or zones an area, but it has no innate damage itself. Having Q be a skill-shot would also makes it significantly more difficult to farm his Q's passive when being bullied in lane, one of the few things he can do to try to stay relevant when getting dominated. This is because moving minions in a wave could creep block him from last hits, and if he is being dominated the enemy could easily decide to eat a few Q's to keep Veigar from ramping up his power (something they currently cannot do). If anything deserves to be a skill-shot, I recommend looking at his ultimate, as I suggested above. Making this part dodge-able would not severely hurt his laning ability, it would add counter play to be able to dodge his highest-damage ability (you can actually flash it rather than flash and feel like a fool because it follows you) and it would place additional emphasis on learning to actually use the Event Horizon properly, to make that decision of “when do I try to stun vs zone”.
Now, I know if anyone has actually stuck around this long, they'll probably still have the question of “why should Veigar be allowed to keep his stun as it is?” and to that I would say without his current stun, Veigar has no setup and if you don't have setup as Veigar, it becomes nearly impossible to utilize him to his full damage potential and his intended purpose; whether it be pulling Zhonyas or flashing out of range before the entire full combo can be pulled off, or even just walking away with high enough movement speed, enemies will not be touched by Veigar. Even just avoiding the W, one avoids a significant amount of damage.
Let's compare Veigar to Syndra real quickly: Syndra has a point-and-click nuke like Veigar (her's actually deals significantly more damage if she can get a couple additional spheres out), she has CC up the wazoo with not only a long-range (potentially) AoE stun but a slow as well. ALL of her abilities deal damage, and she significantly out ranges Veigar. Yet, for all her strengths, she still has weaknesses; she's a low-mobility mage, she's very squishy, she's also reliant on her stun to escape ganks. Additionally, she offers excellent wave-clear, something Veigar has trouble with early and is weak against as a result. Her ability to output sustained damage far exceeds Veigar's, since all of her skills deal damage. There is a reason that you rarely see Veigar in competitive play (and often times it is as support as often as mid, as Jin-Air did in LCK) and that is because Veigar does have pronounced weaknesses which are easily taken advantage of.
Consider the balance of the two champions around both of them landing their stuns and getting their entire full combo off. If you did some solid research looking at Syndra, she'll have the same 120% AP ratio on her ult with 6 Dark Spheres, which for a skilled Syndra player isn't difficult to manage upon having Athene's and the CDR from masteries, runes (if you run CDR on her), and occasionally blue. Her base damage on her ultimate's ranks 1-3 with only 3 spheres (not even casting a q then ulting) is higher across the board. Additionally, with 6 spheres at the rank 1 ult (usually doable around when you finish your athene's/morellos) her base damage is higher than Veigar's Rank 3 ult base damage. Her rank 3 base damage for 6 spheres is 1080-this pure, unadulterated magic damage at 750 range (100 more than veigar's ult). While Veigar's ult scales 80% of enemy's AP, this only makes it equivalent to Syndra in damage when ulting a well built mage. Syndra can ult anyone with impunity and delete them. What's more, while Veigar does have a 100% ap ratio and very high base damage on his W, his E stun has no AP ratio and deals no damage. Syndra, on the other hand, has a combined AP ratio of 110% AP between her W and E (70% W, 40%E) and the combined base damage when combining the two together is also higher than that of Veigar's. (fairly easy for either champion when landing the stun) Lastly, look at the Q's. Both have a 60% AP ratio, with veigar's having slightly higher base damages. Veigar's has a neato passive for permanently increasing AP on last hits. While extremely useful, it prevents simultaneous CSing and harassing. You have to decide which you want to do. Syndra can attempt to do both with her AoE Q. While this makes it easier to dodge, it's also at a much further range than Veigar's and provides solid wave clear. Furthermore, due to her passive, at Rank 5 Syndra's Q is actually 4 magic damage higher than Veigar's against champions (at 264) and has an additional 15% AP scaling of the 60% (for a total of 69% AP against champions only) Therefore, mathematically if each champion is able to land their stun and full combo (and this stipulates that Syndra has 6 balls when ulting, and lands at least 1 of the Q's on the enemy champion) Syndra will vastly out damage and out range Veigar. The reason you see Syndra in competitive over veigar is because she can do everything he can, only better than he can do it, and more. Now, don't get me wrong, I like Syndra, but I definitely think her nerfs were justified. However, at no point in the past few years has Veigar been even close to the oppressive force Syndra has occasionally been known to be.
I'm not asking for a buff so that Veigar becomes the TF of late S2/early S3, or the Kassadin of S3/S4, but I would like to see him retain his ability to deal massive damage and even delete targets instantly, if chosen correctly. I would argue that, as much as Riot is trying to avoid creating these types of champions, League NEEDS binary champions, champions who excel at 1 specific area and they either can do action A or they cannot do action A, and their abilities all are meant to supplement performing action A. It allows more power to be put into that specific area the champion is made to excel at, and more weaknesses so that there is actually counter play (rather than have a champ excel at everything and have no counter play (Nidalee Cough* Cough*) or do a lot of things but not very well such that they're useless). When you think of it, ADC's/Marksmen like Tristana, Kog'Maw, and Vayne (the hyper-carry style) are a good example of this: either they can deal enough damage by auto-attacking to deal with the enemy team or they cannot (yes I know AP Trist/Kog exists, but here I'm talking about their functionality as ADC/Marksmen). I'm sure everyone who has played long enough has been in that game where they shut down the enemy ADC but the rest of the team holds on long enough that come 50 minutes, that Vayne who was once 0-6 now just got her 2nd quadra kill. I've been on teams where too much is focused on killing that one champion, that hyper carry, and even though we succeeded in doing so we got aced for just the 1 kill and lost the game because all our CD's were blown on that single target. Veigar is like an AP version of this; he will do insane damage and delete your squishies if left unchecked, but there are ways to stop him and ways to shut him down. You just have to be wary of spending all of your cooldowns on the one champion that the rest of Veigar's team doesn't steamroll you afterward and win. Veigar is a fun champion to play casually, and a solid niche pick in certain competitive situations, and what's fun is being able to do the one thing really well: deleting squishies. Taking this away from him is like saying "Ok, Vayne and Kog'Maw deal a lot of damage to tanks and melt them way faster than our other ADC's. So we're gonna lower their ability to do this, in exchange for 3 more seconds of survivability". It just doesn't make sense. It's not like when Tristana had her attack speed and abilities touched up because she was crowding out other picks for the same role, that's when something actually needs to be done to tone down a champion, and props to Riot for recognizing it. Veigar, however, is not in that situation yet and as such he should be properly adjusted to fix the nerf of removing DFG before additional nerfs.
I shall again request any constructive criticisms/feedback but more so than that, just hope that someone from Riot is listening so that regardless of what is done to Veigar, he still retains his fun characteristics, his strengths and weaknesses, and is still useful as a niche pick. Lastly, to anyone who actually read the entire post, thank-you. I realize this will be skipped over by many, and downvoted by most others due to text, so for people who actually read this, regardless of comments agreeing/disagreeing, you have my thanks.