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Fixing Wit's End in the Preason

Killzerz·11/10/2014, 1:41:35 AM·18 votes·3,356 views

Wit's End isn't actually bad as a completed item in it's current iteration; it's niche on certain champions and that is a very good thing. In fact, if you run the numbers according to the Wiki, certain champions pay 2500 gold to get 4870.25 gold worth of stats. Of course, this is just a stat stick unlike Zhonya's or Banshee's and doesn't provide the best defense like Banshees and SV do. Still, it's quite strong yet you rarely see it built. Why?

Wit's End has a terrible build path. A Recurve Bow, a Dagger, and a Null Magic Mantle leaves you with very poor offense in most cases as you have no AD to make use of the AS with (as most people who build AD avoid this item because it's magic damage does not scale with crit or abilities). Further, Banshees and SV (which Wit's competes with) have build paths that give more MR and health to boot! So this item is really terrible when built, but shines on niche champions when it actually is. Fun fact, according to the wiki, 2370.25 of Wit's End gold worth is in its passive! And because none of the items it builds out of have such a passive, it usually is left out when considering build paths.

How can this be fixed? Get rid of the Recurve Bow in the recipe. Recurve Bow IMO is rarely seen as it builds into three incredibly niche items: Runaan's Hurricane, Wit's End, and Sword of the Divine. I do believe Riot is also removing Recurve in the new Season. What a perfect time to change the recipe! What if there was a new "Advanced" item that gave some stats of the final Wit's End? What if this item could be applied to another item's build path as well?

Voodoo Dagger: Dagger + Longsword + 390 gold = 1200 gold (OR) Dagger + Dagger + 300 gold = 1200 gold 40% AS UNIQUE: Basic attacks deal 15 bonus magic damage on hit. Builds into: Wit's End, Nashor's Tooth.

In the Wit's End recipe, this replaces the Recurve Bow and the recipe cost now drops by 300 gold (to 450 gold) so that Wit's End remains a 2500 gold purchase. For Nashor's Tooth this replaces Stinger and Nashor's recipe cost is increased by 50 gold (to 900 gold) so that Nashor's Tooth remains a 2920 gold purchase.

EDIT: This could just be a rework of Stinger which is one of those very rare items into my above suggestion (keeps the name "Stinger" though). Would only need to update the extremely rarely bought Zehpyr if that was the case! (Seriously, when is the last time you have ever seen anyone buy Zephyr???)

Tl;dr- Replace the Recurve Bow (which is being taken out of the game in the preseason) in the Wit's End recipe with a new item that gives some AS and a weaker version of the final Wit's End item. Could possibly be used in Nashor's Tooth as well; doesn't have to.

42 Comments

Rebonack11/10/2014, 1:52:33 AM11 votes

I don't think giving Wits attack damage is that great of an idea. We've already got other items for AD/MR. But the idea of replacing the Recurve Bow with an intermediate item that grants some OnHit magic damage is a great idea and has been suggested before.

King Odin11/10/2014, 4:50:01 PM3 votes

I would replace recurve with a item 3101 and make the build item 3101 + item 1033 = item 3091

Kowe The Ewok11/10/2014, 3:10:40 AM2 votes

Wit's has a unique spot of a magic damaged item which does not grant Ap.

I feel like the main part of champions who use it have to sacrifice to much to buy it.

I'm taking about champions like Volibear or Shyvana sho have magic damage on their abilities but don't build AP.

These above champions are meele type attackers which are not true hybrids.

A main issue with this items seems to be a.) the amount of stacks and b.) sticking with the target to apply these stacks.

Personally: I'ld think that a bit of CC would be great on this item. Like a slow being applied after 2 hits for a short duration (several seconds cooldown before reapplying).

This way champions like Volibear could make much better use of it.

BastionKross11/10/2014, 3:01:34 PM2 votes

It's got the same problem item 3022 has: Excellent completed item, but a power plateau while putting it together. If you've got enough money in your pocket to straight up buy it, then it's great. But if you try to buy it piece by piece, you're only hurting yourself.

Desmond Law11/10/2014, 4:22:03 AM2 votes

Varus It's beautiful!

ThePurpleKnight11/10/2014, 3:32:10 AM2 votes

As long as the end result stays the same I don't think I'd mind either way, this could be nice, but I certainly don't want any Wits End reworks, because every time Riot reworks something they NERF it (poor Skarner) Riot has no idea what a rework is. Wits End is a fine item as it is, and while it doesn't come close to fixing the Skarner problem, it was already part of my core build and is doing it's best to keep my jungler from being the worst champion in the league.

Fck patch 4.2 Fck 4.10 even more, worst patch ever. and WTF 4.11, the champ was just nerfed, plz give it a break. Riot and the stories of how all my champions will be nerfed to unviability.

CaRTeLKiLLa11/10/2014, 3:22:15 PM2 votes

Please fix this item. Recurve Bow is an absolute shit tier item in this current meta, if you spend money to buy it you won't get any use out of it because you'll be dead for lack of a Giant Belt that you could have bought for 100 more gold.

ProfDrDeath11/10/2014, 11:19:16 AM1 votes

How about an item tree like this?

Ethereal Shard

Basic Tier 300-500 gold 6-10 on-hit magic damage

Spectral Razor

Ethereal Shard + Dagger 900-1100 gold 20-25% AS 15-20 on-hit magic damage

Spectral Razor would build into item 3091 , item 3153 (on-hit changes to physical damage), item 3115 , the new Devourer enchantment and possibly item 3087 if they every decide to remove item 3093 .

Why a basic tier item like Ethereal Shard?

Because having the on-hit item solely build out of a dagger seems like the wrong order to me. You'd first get multiplier stat (AS) without having something to multiply, making it mostly subpar. The same reason current Wit's End sucks - you're force to spend hell of a lot of money to only get a marginal power increase if you don't already have extra AD or an effect strongly increased by AS, and only with the completion of the item comes the real power spike.

Kobold11/10/2014, 4:11:41 PM1 votes

Decent Idea, I like that people are willing to talk about how to improve the current items in the game. (RIP Rageblade and Atma's) My thoughts would be:

Voodoo Dager: Dagger + Mantle + 350G = 1200 20% AS 20 MR Unique: Basic attacks steal 5 MR from target on hit (stacks up to 3 times).

This allows a build that doesn't interfere with Stinger (arguable on usefulness) and allows it to have a niche build path that would be good for laning against Magic damage champions.

Ale non è male11/10/2014, 4:22:22 PM1 votes

The post of the OP has one big flaw: Wit's End is not an item for AD champs. It's an item for champs that scale well with attack speed because they AA much with AP/magic damage abilities in the kit AND face strong AP enemies(the magic resistence shredding processed on the target in the right hands can be really powerflu), basically a situational item. And it's not an item someone should rush early because you should always wait to get AP first and/or the enemy to build MR to get it and make it efficient, so the problem of giving some kind of damage during the build path is not a big concern, especially if the damage was so little as you suggested(15 magic damagae against a champ that has builded enough MR to justify Wit's End aren't meaningful enough to make it someway good as build path following your line of thought)

Skia Asteri11/10/2014, 4:26:18 PM1 votes

Wit's End has a number of problems, and its build path is one of them. Its other problems come from being in a strange place due to being an offensive and a defensive item, but it not a great choice as either.

As an offense item, it is bad for scaling. It only improves abilities that scale with AS or do magic damage. The bonus damage it does only scales with AS and MPen. In League of Multiplicative Scaling you are hurting yourself if you build items that do not make each other scale better. This makes it only good on champions that will not be building enough offense to care about the lack of scaling.

As a defensive item, it provides variable stats based on temporary stacks. People seem to not like this, and will not seriously consider it unless the base amount is enough. Fully stacked it is not much better than most finished items, while unstacked it is one of the weakest.

As a hybrid, it still is not an attractive choice as it is not slot efficient in many cases. If it is purchased in place of a more specialized items you will either be lacking in offense or defense. There are not a lot of items, if any, that could be paired with it in a build to hit the same balance you get from picking up a dedicated offense and a defense item.

WiseFrozenNinja11/10/2014, 7:48:24 PM1 votes

First off I hate that you say nobody builds Zephyr. Although it usually isnt a core item i commonly see it in long games, which is probably why you think it isnt built. Very few long games these days.

chumbler11/10/2014, 2:05:56 AM1 votes

MR reduction and damage procs on spells as well (damage only on single target spells or aoes that shoot individual projectiles like Ahri's W), damage procs at ~half or less value on towers. Boom, done.

Also doesn't build out of fucking recurve bow. There is one universal truth about this game, and that is that if an item builds out of a recurve bow, it is a terrible item you should never buy.

Sukishoo11/10/2014, 2:36:58 AM1 votes

**Tl;dr- Replace the Recurve Bow (which is being taken out of the game in the preseason)

Where are you getting this info?

Incognonymous11/10/2014, 3:35:28 AM1 votes

Build path is bad, I agree. It has the same problem as Sunfire though, unless you straight up rush it there are almost certainly better items. Wit's End is a midgame item that few people build before midgame. It and Sunfire need to scale better so that the few non AP tanks who still deal magic damage can compensate for not having something as ridiculously effective as Abyssal, an item in a comparable niche to WIt's End.

Stacking it will always be a problem for melees. It almost needs the AS ramping passive of Rageblade.

Jungle Lux God11/10/2014, 3:59:54 AM1 votes

I like the idea a lot, but the recipe doesn't seem to good. Then again, you can't really do much to improve the cost.

If it didn't build into Nashor's Tooth, I would recommend having Voodoo Dagger build out of Null Magic Mantle and a Dagger instead, and have Wit's End build out of Voodoo Dagger and a Dagger. However, two daggers would still be at least somewhat useful once it's upgraded into the Voodoo Dagger, so it wouldn't be too bad.

Adalore11/10/2014, 7:42:58 AM1 votes

It would indeed be nice to get this item reworked. The list of champions I buy the live version on starts with Irelia and ends with Skarner...though I did buy it first on Nautilus once...(after golem spirit and moby boots) That was a very stupid ranked game that still ended in a win.

Blunts4Brekfast11/10/2014, 8:40:07 AM1 votes

if i wanted AD and MR together id buy hexdrinker. i buy wits end becuz i want AS and MR together.

just leave it alone.