Fixing Wit's End in the Preason

Killzerz·Nov 10, 2014·18 votes·3,356 views

Wit's End isn't actually bad as a completed item in it's current iteration; it's niche on certain champions and that is a very good thing. In fact, if you run the numbers according to the Wiki, certain champions pay 2500 gold to get 4870.25 gold worth of stats. Of course, this is just a stat stick unlike Zhonya's or Banshee's and doesn't provide the best defense like Banshees and SV do. Still, it's quite strong yet you rarely see it built. Why?

Wit's End has a terrible build path. A Recurve Bow, a Dagger, and a Null Magic Mantle leaves you with very poor offense in most cases as you have no AD to make use of the AS with (as most people who build AD avoid this item because it's magic damage does not scale with crit or abilities). Further, Banshees and SV (which Wit's competes with) have build paths that give more MR and health to boot! So this item is really terrible when built, but shines on niche champions when it actually is. Fun fact, according to the wiki, 2370.25 of Wit's End gold worth is in its passive! And because none of the items it builds out of have such a passive, it usually is left out when considering build paths.

How can this be fixed? Get rid of the Recurve Bow in the recipe. Recurve Bow IMO is rarely seen as it builds into three incredibly niche items: Runaan's Hurricane, Wit's End, and Sword of the Divine. I do believe Riot is also removing Recurve in the new Season. What a perfect time to change the recipe! What if there was a new "Advanced" item that gave some stats of the final Wit's End? What if this item could be applied to another item's build path as well?

Voodoo Dagger: Dagger + Longsword + 390 gold = 1200 gold (OR) Dagger + Dagger + 300 gold = 1200 gold 40% AS UNIQUE: Basic attacks deal 15 bonus magic damage on hit. Builds into: Wit's End, Nashor's Tooth.

In the Wit's End recipe, this replaces the Recurve Bow and the recipe cost now drops by 300 gold (to 450 gold) so that Wit's End remains a 2500 gold purchase. For Nashor's Tooth this replaces Stinger and Nashor's recipe cost is increased by 50 gold (to 900 gold) so that Nashor's Tooth remains a 2920 gold purchase.

EDIT: This could just be a rework of Stinger which is one of those very rare items into my above suggestion (keeps the name "Stinger" though). Would only need to update the extremely rarely bought Zehpyr if that was the case! (Seriously, when is the last time you have ever seen anyone buy Zephyr???)

Tl;dr- Replace the Recurve Bow (which is being taken out of the game in the preseason) in the Wit's End recipe with a new item that gives some AS and a weaker version of the final Wit's End item. Could possibly be used in Nashor's Tooth as well; doesn't have to.

42 Comments

RebonackNov 10, 201411 votes

I don't think giving Wits attack damage is that great of an idea. We've already got other items for AD/MR. But the idea of replacing the Recurve Bow with an intermediate item that grants some OnHit magic damage is a great idea and has been suggested before.

Remlap1223Nov 10, 20146 votes

What like item 3115 ? I kinda like that idea. Give Nashor's a different base item than Codex, and then have Wit's end build out of that. Yeah. Nice idea.

KillzerzNov 10, 20143 votes

Personally I think Codex is good on Nashor's, but Stinger could be replaced. Stinger is in awkward place right now like Recurve; I would be okay with nixing it and putting in an AS/magic-damage-on-hit right now!

Remlap1223Nov 10, 20143 votes

Makes sense, since Nashor's already has a base magic damage of 15 per hit. Doing that on the base item would be fine, as long as it also grants attack speed. Let Nashor's keep the codex and Wit's End can keep the mantle. Good shit guys.

KillzerzNov 10, 20141 votes

My suggestion does not give more AD. I suggested Longsword as a build path because 2 daggers seems like a pretty bad recipe and you do gain damage out of the suggested item (just not physical damage). However, as a purist I did mention it could be built from 2 daggers; it just suffers from a bad build path all over again (albeit far less so than Wit's End as it is now).

Fantastic to hear others are wanting this too and have suggested it before! Hopefully with more upvotes the message gets out! If there is another board topic which has mentioned this before, please point me to it so I can upvote it and give it a "good luck!" comment!

King OdinNov 10, 20143 votes

I would replace recurve with a item 3101 and make the build + item 1033 = item 3091

Kowe The EwokNov 10, 20142 votes

Wit's has a unique spot of a magic damaged item which does not grant Ap.

I feel like the main part of champions who use it have to sacrifice to much to buy it.

I'm taking about champions like Volibear or Shyvana sho have magic damage on their abilities but don't build AP.

These above champions are meele type attackers which are not true hybrids.

A main issue with this items seems to be a.) the amount of stacks and b.) sticking with the target to apply these stacks.

Personally: I'ld think that a bit of CC would be great on this item. Like a slow being applied after 2 hits for a short duration (several seconds cooldown before reapplying).

This way champions like Volibear could make much better use of it.

KillzerzNov 10, 20142 votes

CC is really strong on items. While Wit's could potentially give CC something like Frozen Mallet, so much would have to be gutted to allow it that Wit's End would become something else than an MR/AS/on-hit niche item that it is now.

Why not get Frozen Mallet/IBG/Trinity and Wit's End to help with the stickiness problem? ;)

ThePurpleKnightNov 10, 20142 votes

As long as the end result stays the same I don't think I'd mind either way, this could be nice, but I certainly don't want any Wits End reworks, because every time Riot reworks something they NERF it (poor Skarner) Riot has no idea what a rework is. Wits End is a fine item as it is, and while it doesn't come close to fixing the Skarner problem, it was already part of my core build and is doing it's best to keep my jungler from being the worst champion in the league.

Fck patch 4.2 Fck 4.10 even more, worst patch ever. and WTF 4.11, the champ was just nerfed, plz give it a break. Riot and the stories of how all my champions will be nerfed to unviability.

Jungle Lux GodNov 10, 20141 votes

Skarner apparently was pretty good after 4.10, and was strong enough to warrant nerfs the following patch.

ThePurpleKnightNov 10, 20141 votes

Skarner apparently was pretty good after 4.10, and was strong enough to warrant nerfs the following patch.

Na, people who didn't play him before may think so, and ofc it's nice to have the movement speed so some may be too focused on that. However Skarner was about sustained damaged dueling and being inescapable, now his sustained damage nerf nerfed and replaced with small burst and the worst stun in the entire game. Even with that burst he loses 58 damage without even counting in the scaling nerfs. then you also gotta remember that burst has a Cooldown. Skarner got the mega nerf, the only good to come from patch 4.10 was the movement speed on Q. Loss of Energize and halved damage was not worth the new fake passive.

Honestly since his Q got nerfed for the damage on his new passive, I don't even consider the damage part of the passive, making Skarners current passive easily the worst passive in the game, Thresh's is pretty horrible for being a gamble that may work against you, and Miss Fortunes trolls her a little. Lissandra's comes with decreased regen and thus not solving her mana issues at all but a .5 second interrupt in the early game is easily the weakest passive in LoL. For all that Skarner lost to get that garbage. Annie gets a 2-3 second one for literally the same thing but doesn't require an enemy to stack.

Jungle Lux GodNov 10, 20141 votes

It's funny how you completely forget Talon and Ashe's respective passives, both of which don't even compete with Skarner for worse passives. At least Skarner's passive has some relevance in at least the later stages of the game, when the stun is stronger, while Talon's passive is near useless and Ashe's passive is counterproductive.

ThePurpleKnightNov 11, 20141 votes

It's funny how you completely forget Talon and Ashe's respective passives, both of which don't even compete with Skarner for worse passives. At least Skarner's passive has some relevance in at least the later stages of the game, when the stun is stronger, while Talon's passive is near useless and Ashe's passive is counterproductive.

Okay so I actually didn't know Talons passive, just read it, that sounds extremely powerful, I mean there are definitely better ones I agree, but Talons is better than Skarners because that 10% damage doesn't come with a nerf to his rake or ultimate.

Ashe I agree has a useless passive, one that needs to function more like Statikk Shiv, if it came with a nerf to her crit damage, I would say hers is the worst, but I'd still rather first hit crit and suffer no penalties for having the passive, then I would have a .5-1 second stun, at the cost of most of my damage.

Jungle Lux GodNov 11, 20141 votes

Talon's passive is a poor excuse of a damage steroid on auto attacks considering how absolutely terrible his auto attack animation is, especially considering he can't really build attack speed without crippling his damage outside of Youmu's, and even then Youmu's only has temporary attack speed. If you have ever played Talon before, you would know what I mean. Also, Talon has limited resources to impair his opponent's movement to actually apply his passive between his W and his E, both of which cost mana and his E barely slows his opponents for long enough to attack them before the slow wears off. Talon gets a lot more damage out of using his abilities, and not his passive, to deal damage, leaving Talon's passive as fairly worthless. It sounds great in theory, but its execution is very lackluster.

Ashe's passive is super conditional at best, and useless at worst. In the laning phase you are going to spend more time auto attacking minions to last hit than auto attacking your opponents to apply the passive because of the traditional ADC necessities to get farm. You are going to spend enough time auto attacking during the laning phase that, at best, you will only get 1-2 procs off outside of when you initially get to/return to lane, and that usually will be used on a minion. In the late game, Ashe has enough critical strike chance to render her passive obsolete. In the early game it doesn't find use, and scales horribly into the late game.

Compared to these two passives I'd take a multitarget stun any day, even if it only lasts .5 seconds.

ThePurpleKnightNov 11, 20141 votes

Talon's passive is a poor excuse of a damage steroid on auto attacks considering how absolutely terrible his auto attack animation is, especially considering he can't really build attack speed without crippling his damage outside of Youmu's, and even then Youmu's only has temporary attack speed. If you have ever played Talon before, you would know what I mean. Also, Talon has limited resources to impair his opponent's movement to actually apply his passive between his W and his E, both of which cost mana and his E barely slows his opponents for long enough to attack them before the slow wears off. Talon gets a lot more damage out of using his abilities, and not his passive, to deal damage, leaving Talon's passive as fairly worthless. It sounds great in theory, but its execution is very lackluster.

Ashe's passive is super conditional at best, and useless at worst. In the laning phase you are going to spend more time auto attacking minions to last hit than auto attacking your opponents to apply the passive because of the traditional ADC necessities to get farm. You are going to spend enough time auto attacking during the laning phase that, at best, you will only get 1-2 procs off outside of when you initially get to/return to lane, and that usually will be used on a minion. In the late game, Ashe has enough critical strike chance to render her passive obsolete. In the early game it doesn't find use, and scales horribly into the late game.

Compared to these two passives I'd take a multitarget stun any day, even if it only lasts .5 seconds.

You'd prefer the Skarner passive even if it meant that the damage on your W would be lowered to half of what it does currently? The number of damage lost is actually closer to 1/3 but since he gets some back via the passive, lets go with halving damage of the W. I wouldn't do it.

MarthianNov 10, 20141 votes

Sona is still very strong after her Rework. Possibly even more so than her old kit. Nidalee is still stupid to play against with her Nidnukes (still hurt even with the lower damage) and soon as one hits she jump-rips whoever. Sivir was very strong and then got nerfed because of it. Lucian's mini-rework is still strong. Soraka is much more healthy to play against (don't like her mass healing? kill her.)

A lot of reworks are because a champion's kit is toxic/overpowered (Kassadin being a huge example of this.) But the reworks have not all been straight nerfs. Having to play the character different, yes, but when you learn the new kit, they're strong.

ThePurpleKnightNov 10, 20141 votes

Sona is still very strong after her Rework. Possibly even more so than her old kit. Nidalee is still stupid to play against with her Nidnukes (still hurt even with the lower damage) and soon as one hits she jump-rips whoever. Sivir was very strong and then got nerfed because of it. Lucian's mini-rework is still strong. Soraka is much more healthy to play against (don't like her mass healing? kill her.)

A lot of reworks are because a champion's kit is toxic/overpowered (Kassadin being a huge example of this.) But the reworks have not all been straight nerfs. Having to play the character different, yes, but when you learn the new kit, they're strong.

Nidalee is still decent after rework, but AP Nidalee was nerfed, and I think there was more nerfs than buffs to AD Nidalee, that trap nerf was stupid. We simply didn't wanna give up on her and found the next best way to play her. There is no doubt about it, she is weaker, 40% armor pen would have been really nice for AD Nidalee, however we will play Nidalee always. Even if she gets Skarnered (please don't Skarner our precious Nidalee Riot)

Desmond LawNov 10, 20142 votes

Varus It's beautiful!

BastionKrossNov 10, 20142 votes

It's got the same problem item 3022 has: Excellent completed item, but a power plateau while putting it together. If you've got enough money in your pocket to straight up buy it, then it's great. But if you try to buy it piece by piece, you're only hurting yourself.

CaRTeLKiLLaNov 10, 20142 votes

Please fix this item. Recurve Bow is an absolute shit tier item in this current meta, if you spend money to buy it you won't get any use out of it because you'll be dead for lack of a Giant Belt that you could have bought for 100 more gold.

chumblerNov 10, 20141 votes

MR reduction and damage procs on spells as well (damage only on single target spells or aoes that shoot individual projectiles like Ahri's W), damage procs at ~half or less value on towers. Boom, done.

Also doesn't build out of fucking recurve bow. There is one universal truth about this game, and that is that if an item builds out of a recurve bow, it is a terrible item you should never buy.

SukishooNov 10, 20141 votes

**Tl;dr- Replace the Recurve Bow (which is being taken out of the game in the preseason)

Where are you getting this info?

IncognonymousNov 10, 20141 votes

Build path is bad, I agree. It has the same problem as Sunfire though, unless you straight up rush it there are almost certainly better items. Wit's End is a midgame item that few people build before midgame. It and Sunfire need to scale better so that the few non AP tanks who still deal magic damage can compensate for not having something as ridiculously effective as Abyssal, an item in a comparable niche to WIt's End.

Stacking it will always be a problem for melees. It almost needs the AS ramping passive of Rageblade.

KillzerzNov 10, 20141 votes

While I see what you are saying, I still think Sunfire is in a strong spot. It gives armor AND health even before it is completed, and when it is it gives damage. Wit's gives you AS which trades poorly and in many cases isn't as good as straight AD or AP, while giving you poor MR before Wit's is completed. Then and only then do you get more MR and actual on hit damage. Further, Sunfire helps AoE clear; Wit's doesn't.

You definitely have a point but I think Sunfire is okay as is right now; Wit's End is not.

Jungle Lux GodNov 10, 20141 votes

I like the idea a lot, but the recipe doesn't seem to good. Then again, you can't really do much to improve the cost.

If it didn't build into Nashor's Tooth, I would recommend having Voodoo Dagger build out of Null Magic Mantle and a Dagger instead, and have Wit's End build out of Voodoo Dagger and a Dagger. However, two daggers would still be at least somewhat useful once it's upgraded into the Voodoo Dagger, so it wouldn't be too bad.

KillzerzNov 10, 20141 votes

I agree, but without doing a major overall this would be difficult. In my opinion you are right, but it's better to start slow than to never start at all with too big of a concept. :)

AdaloreNov 10, 20141 votes

It would indeed be nice to get this item reworked. The list of champions I buy the live version on starts with Irelia and ends with Skarner...though I did buy it first on Nautilus once...(after golem spirit and moby boots) That was a very stupid ranked game that still ended in a win.

Blunts4BrekfastNov 10, 20141 votes

if i wanted AD and MR together id buy hexdrinker. i buy wits end becuz i want AS and MR together.

just leave it alone.

ProfDrDeathNov 10, 20141 votes

How about an item tree like this?

Ethereal Shard

Basic Tier 300-500 gold 6-10 on-hit magic damage

Spectral Razor

Ethereal Shard + Dagger 900-1100 gold 20-25% AS 15-20 on-hit magic damage

Spectral Razor would build into item 3091 , item 3153 (on-hit changes to physical damage), item 3115 , the new Devourer enchantment and possibly item 3087 if they every decide to remove item 3093 .

Why a basic tier item like Ethereal Shard?

Because having the on-hit item solely build out of a dagger seems like the wrong order to me. You'd first get multiplier stat (AS) without having something to multiply, making it mostly subpar. The same reason current Wit's End sucks - you're force to spend hell of a lot of money to only get a marginal power increase if you don't already have extra AD or an effect strongly increased by AS, and only with the completion of the item comes the real power spike.

KoboldNov 10, 20141 votes

Decent Idea, I like that people are willing to talk about how to improve the current items in the game. (RIP Rageblade and Atma's) My thoughts would be:

Voodoo Dager: Dagger + Mantle + 350G = 1200 20% AS 20 MR Unique: Basic attacks steal 5 MR from target on hit (stacks up to 3 times).

This allows a build that doesn't interfere with Stinger (arguable on usefulness) and allows it to have a niche build path that would be good for laning against Magic damage champions.

Ale non è maleNov 10, 20141 votes

The post of the OP has one big flaw: Wit's End is not an item for AD champs. It's an item for champs that scale well with attack speed because they AA much with AP/magic damage abilities in the kit AND face strong AP enemies(the magic resistence shredding processed on the target in the right hands can be really powerflu), basically a situational item. And it's not an item someone should rush early because you should always wait to get AP first and/or the enemy to build MR to get it and make it efficient, so the problem of giving some kind of damage during the build path is not a big concern, especially if the damage was so little as you suggested(15 magic damagae against a champ that has builded enough MR to justify Wit's End aren't meaningful enough to make it someway good as build path following your line of thought)

KillzerzNov 10, 20141 votes

OP never intended this to be for AD champs. OP wanted this for the Shyvanas, Warwicks, and Udyr out there (Jax and Irelia can also make use of it to a lesser extent).
Wit's End doesn't require you to get AP to be good. "You should always wait to get AP first." What?
15 damage is 15 damage. Yes that makes a huge difference. Imagine hitting someone 10-15 times during an engagement, or 25 times trading in the lane. That damage stacks up!
I may have problems with some communication issues. I am going to assume you are a second-language learner in regards to English; your post is hard to read and difficult to make sense of. I do not want to sound snooty, but perhaps their is a communication gap between us?

Ale non è maleNov 10, 20141 votes

OP never intended this to be for AD champs. OP wanted this for the Shyvanas, Warwicks, and Udyr out there (Jax and Irelia can also make use of it to a lesser extent).

Wit's End doesn't require you to get AP to be good. "You should always wait to get AP first." What?

15 damage is 15 damage. Yes that makes a huge difference. Imagine hitting someone 10-15 times during an engagement, or 25 times trading in the lane. That damage stacks up!

I may have problems with some communication issues. I am going to assume you are a second-language learner in regards to English; your post is hard to read and difficult to make sense of. I do not want to sound snooty, but perhaps their is a communication gap between us?

1)"A Recurve Bow, a Dagger, and a Null Magic Mantle leaves you with very poor offense in most cases as you have no AD to make use of the AS with (as most people who build AD avoid this item because it's magic damage does not scale with crit or abilities)" This is what you wrote. I could not be the best reader of English language in the world, but this is clearly straightforward: pick Wit's isn't good because you have no enough AD to deal damage through it. But the fact is that you don't need to have AD to make use of Wit's AS, as the champs that are going to pick it, are also going to have something in the kit or in their itemization path that allow them to deal tons of damage with AA without needing to build a lot of AD(a Warwick with Yomuu + Wit's End or BoTRK + Wit's End or Feral + Wit's End builds very little AD but deal tons of dmg anyway), so they make good use of the raw AS they get through the build path

You forgot the second part of the sentence "because you should always wait to get AP first and/or the enemy to build MR to get it and make it efficient". Wit's End does not only increase your MR but, ABOVE ALL, also reduce enemy MR. Is this MR shredding the thing that give ameaning to this item. You should get Wit because you should shred enemy MR with AAs so that you can amplify a lot the magic damage in your kit. Yes, the MR it gives is a further help against AP damage dealers, but quite honestly if you are going for defense it would be better to get an item that gives you MR without needing to stack it, and get more offense elsewhere. Wit's is still mainly a damage item thanks to the on-hit damage + MR shredding that amplify magic damage. If the enemy does not build MR and/or you don't build AP, Wit's does not not give you much damage because you don't make use of MR shredding

3)Wit's on hit damage is magic damage, which means that it is subject to MR. Looking back at what said in point 2, you are going to get Wit's against enemy that builds MR, so magic damage is going to be mitigated a lot(and you don't even have the MR shred of the completed item. Out of those 15 damage, you get what, 7-8 damage/hit? Yeah, a buff is never bad, but quite frankly, 7-8 damage/hit is not a deal breaker that would suddenly make Wit's build path going from "terrible" as you defined it to "good". And, you shouldn't get Wit on lane phase anyway

I admit that I don't always wrote in a straightforward English language, but I don't think that there is a communication gap. IO just think that if a sentence is not fully quoted or a damage output isn't calculated correctly we are going to have differences in the evaluations of the argument :D

KillzerzNov 11, 20141 votes

I still think there is a huge mismatch in our language capabilities. :/ Maybe we are saying some of the same things but it seems like there is still an issue.

I think I'm starting to understand where you are coming from. What I am saying here though is that there is a huge difference when you actually complete the item to when you are building it. Think about it like this: completing the item from its components gives makes the effective gold of the item go from 1750 gold for its components to 4870.25 gold worth of stats when completed. Compare this to Zhonyas which goes from 3401 gold for its components to 3610 gold when completed. Yes, one is a stat stick and one has a strong active, but you get the point. When completed, Wit's gives nearly 3 times the statistical power of its components. (Every number was received from the wiki). So yes, I'm OP and I realize this isn't for AD champs. But the power gap between components and completed item are vast! Further, when trading you don't really get to make use of AS because of kiting potential. People who can "one-and-done" are in a far better place due to out-trading opponents in one hit (doesn't necessarily mean they scale better, just means they are better in lane). See: Renekton. The only characters that get really great use out of AS are carries due to how range works (even then most carries don't get to optimally use AS all of the time).
I didn't forget about it. It's just your first part was wrong and I pointed that out. Most people (if not all people) who commonly build this item don't get AP. I haven't seen an AP Teemo or AP Kayle that gets this. If anything, they get Nashor's. The people who commonly get this are WW, Udyr, Shyvanna, Jax, and Irelia (last two are arguable for how effective it actually is on them). So no, people who buy this item don't really get AP.

I have to expand this point into two because you have no idea how MR calculations work. "Because you should always wait [for] the enemy to build MR to get it and make it efficient." Actually, Wit's is far better against someone who has low MR. Two examples: a carry with 30 MR and a tank with 150 MR. You shred 25 MR off each. The carry goes from 23% reduction to 5% reduction, while the tank goes from 60% reduction to 56% reduction. Guess who is now taking more damage? (Hint: It's the carry! Calculations show Wit's alone jumps from 32 damage to 41 on squishies, while on tanks you go from 17 to 18 damage.)

Previous calculation refutes point 3. Especially if this is built early against a top laner who has in the realm of 30 to 50 MR. (And yes, this could be rushed IF THE COMPONENTS WERE BUFFED.) Or even as a second item; many people don't have access to early MR. So you would be doing about 10-12 damage per hit. Hit someone 25 times in lane and you have done 250-300 more damage they have to sustain. Hit them 10 times in an engagement and you have done 100-120 more damage (a fantastic buff that isn't gamebreakingly OP!). This would be fantastic against an Akali in lane or again, as a second item when MR is still generally lacking. And I'm looking more at Wit's build path going from "terrible" to "decent", not "good".
Quotes don't need to be fully quoted so long as they don't change the context. If you attempt to make two points in a sentence and one of them is wrong, I will attempt to argue that one point. Luckily, after review and clarification, both of your points are wrong so I responded to both of your wrong points. Oh, and you are right. If you don't calculate damage output correctly, then you are probably going to say the wrong thing (I "mathed" for you!). Again, all numbers and calculations are drawn from the LOL wiki.
The only possible suggestion that I could think my original argument lacked was that nerfing 40% AS in the recipe down to 30% and adding the passive ends up a net neutral damage change in the long run, especially when considering the cost increase. Noted and changed.

Ale non è maleNov 11, 20141 votes

Condensing all the points: Yes, theoretically Wit's would work better with target with low MR, but as a matter of facts if you have magic damage in your kit you yet deal A LOT of damage to squishies that not build MR at all. Let's not forget that Wit's give very low raw combat stats vs basically every item an AA reliant champ could want. When you swap Wit for a Yomuu and its AD + crit chancee + 20 armor pen(+ CDR + the active for AS and MS) on a squishy you got an even higher dimage output than what you got with Wit's. BoTRK is on a whole different level of damage output than Wit's. Or you can just go for raw AD that add a lot more damage to your AA. And these stats stacks up at every AA, which deal physical damage, they don't increase the damage every once in a while when you use the ability of the champs that deal magic damage and are limited by CDs...in the end they deal more than the on-hit damage of Wit's passive So buy Wit's vs a target that does not build MR(or theoretically if you don't build AP and so you don't have an higher damage to amplify through MR shredding) doesn't make sense , cause you can get a lot more damage by just picking a different item...after all what matter to you is that target health bar goes down, not the type of damage you bring them Your damage calculation isn't wrong if you are doing abstract math, it's that you are completely ignoring that there are many options that just outclass Wit's vs a squishy. that build no defense in general and spefically MR. Have you asked yourself why Warwick is the only champ for which Wit's is a must even when facing squishies, while even for the Udyrs, the Shyvana and the others remains a niche item? Because thanks of his passive he is the only champ that deal magic damage through AA, and so Wit synergize particularly well with his kit. By autoattacking he shreds enemy MR and so he increase the magic damage he brings with hiis passive on autoattacks, without being forced to wait for CDs to get the benefit out of MR shredding. On the other champs Wit's benefits are gated by the Cds of their abilities so they don't make full use of its stats

If you want to buff Wit's build path, it is fine for me, but you should acknowledge what are Wit's strengths and why our evaluation on the items differ. I don't calculate Wit's damage vs a squishy, because vs squishies I am just going to ignore Wit's and pick something else, and I make calculations and reasonings in the situations where Wit's is going to be used

KillzerzNov 11, 20141 votes

I'm done arguing with you. You are too thick to argue with. If you want to make a point, instead of getting into a shouting match please do some math like I did. I'll help to start you. Find the damage Shyvana does with Youmuu's vs. Wit's End at level 11 and level 18 (include abilities please; Q, W, E, R over the full duration). Make sure you include math against both a squishy (30 MR, 70 armor) and against a tank (150 MR, 250 Armor) [numbers are arbitrary, but this is about average against each). I would do this math for you, but I am afraid you would just shout more and my time would be wasted on this small project.

You literally took a paragraph of run-on sentences, mashed them together with no data, and said you are right because I am wrong and that is that. You need data to argue. And since I provided you data before, the onus is on you to provide mathematical proof that you are right and I am wrong. Until then, kindly keep your opinions with no data to yourself. (In before you write another rage post without math!)

Ale non è maleNov 12, 20141 votes

Except you provide 0 data on how Wit's give more damage on squishies than raw AD items or items that give AD + AS on AA reliant champs. Because that is the whole point. if it worked that way, we would see Wit's instead of those kind of items in most of the games The fact is that you theorycraft on the single item and how it theoretically work, not looking at the interaction with the other items of your build and enemy build nor to the other options available to buy to deal damage Against squishies there are tons of options that give better damage than Wit's. On AA reliant champs most of the damage goes through AA, and there is no way Wit's beat a lot of items vs a squishy on that aspect even with his on-hit damage passive You talk about data...then show us how Wit's would beat Statik or Phantom Dancer damage wise vs squishies! Or how it beats Maw or Mercurial Scimitar(and both also have MR like Wit's). Because if is damage what we are talking about, you got to count also these items in. And so on...

You are the only one that sees a shouting match here (hint, on internet people shout only when the are using caps lock), or are seeing somewhere in my post rage(which isn't present anywhere), it's more like you shift the argument to prove I'm wrong instead of answer to the objections I'm lifting to your argument Wit's strengths are straightforward clear. Wit's MR shredding on enemy(and MR gain on Wit's user), make useless for the enemy stats upon which they have spent gold and for which they have sacrificed other stats(because the gold they have spent to get those stats can't be spend on other items), giving to Wit's user an edge...provided some conditions are met, namely that Wit's user must be a champ that rely strong on AA and so make use of the AS stat to deal damage, that he got to have abilities that deal magic damage and the enemy must build the stat you are subtracting him, otherwise there are just better options to deal raw damage, and there are even options that give damage and MR(Maw, Mercurial, without even counting things like Abyssal that would give you less damage on AA but much higher damage than Wit's on the magic abilities of these champs since it shredenemy MR as well as Wit's but grants you also AP that boost those damage )

Skia AsteriNov 10, 20141 votes

Wit's End has a number of problems, and its build path is one of them. Its other problems come from being in a strange place due to being an offensive and a defensive item, but it not a great choice as either.

As an offense item, it is bad for scaling. It only improves abilities that scale with AS or do magic damage. The bonus damage it does only scales with AS and MPen. In League of Multiplicative Scaling you are hurting yourself if you build items that do not make each other scale better. This makes it only good on champions that will not be building enough offense to care about the lack of scaling.

As a defensive item, it provides variable stats based on temporary stacks. People seem to not like this, and will not seriously consider it unless the base amount is enough. Fully stacked it is not much better than most finished items, while unstacked it is one of the weakest.

As a hybrid, it still is not an attractive choice as it is not slot efficient in many cases. If it is purchased in place of a more specialized items you will either be lacking in offense or defense. There are not a lot of items, if any, that could be paired with it in a build to hit the same balance you get from picking up a dedicated offense and a defense item.

KillzerzNov 10, 20142 votes

I actually think it is a fantastic item (when built). If you can make use of all its statistics it is a stat-stick that gives you nearly twice the amount of statistics as what you pay for! It does have compound scaling issues and its kind of a "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none", but again it has a very high gold-efficiency rating. And this item shines on certain champions who only purchase only one or two offensive items. It is actually pretty slot efficient if you crunch the numbers, but even more attractive is that it doesn't cost as much as many other offensive items meaning more money to spend on defense.

Really, IMO the only really problem it suffers from is being terrible before being finished. But I do respect your opinion and see where you are coming from!

WiseFrozenNinjaNov 10, 20141 votes

First off I hate that you say nobody builds Zephyr. Although it usually isnt a core item i commonly see it in long games, which is probably why you think it isnt built. Very few long games these days.

KillzerzNov 11, 20141 votes

First off I hate that you say nobody builds Zephyr. Although it usually isnt a core item i commonly see it in long games, which is probably why you think it isnt built. Very few long games these days.

I'm a tad confused with what to make of these sentences. First you say you dislike that I say nobody builds Zephyr, then reaffirm what I said about Zephyr by stating that its a super lategame item that nearly nobody gets to build these days. :?

WiseFrozenNinjaNov 11, 20141 votes

First off I hate that you say nobody builds Zephyr. Although it usually isnt a core item i commonly see it in long games, which is probably why you think it isnt built. Very few long games these days.

I'm a tad confused with what to make of these sentences. First you say you dislike that I say nobody builds Zephyr, then reaffirm what I said about Zephyr by stating that its a super lategame item that nearly nobody gets to build these days. :?

If you read again i say its common in late games, which means its common in a situation, hence situational item.